Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spikes01k 11-21-07, 09:38 PM	After an argument with my GM about said feat I got the time to call WotC a few minutes ago. Here is the verdict, Arcane Strike was made before the creation of a swift and immediate actions and with their creation, they should be converted to such a type of action; this apparently is covered better in the rules compendium. Also as expected, all the attacks with natural weapons get bonuses to hit and bonus 4d damage equally, you would not need to power each seperatly. So if you use a single 5th level spell, a hydra with 12 heads would get +5 to hit and +5d4 damage to each attack with their head. The most damage one duskblade could do with a single blow is +5 to hit and +10D4 damage, assuming this is possible with the rules, they would need to use their swift action, and then use their move action, and be right next to their target and have a single swing after using two 5th level spells.
PhaedrusXY 11-21-07, 10:35 PM	How is this bad news? I'd guess that that is how most people were using it anyway. Did any DM actually let a PC "stack" multiple uses of Arcane Strike in a real game?
Kn1ves 11-21-07, 11:25 PM	I always thought that a Mageblade, A&EG, would make a handy weapon for a Gish with the Arcane Strike feat. Each sacrificed spell would do double duty as long as it was an elemental damage dealing spell.
Aryxbez 11-21-07, 11:47 PM	Call me slow, but what is the problem here? Arcane strike=free action, so one can imbue Arcane strike, and if a Duskblade has a swift action to imbue another spell for damage, then I would guess that this is legal. Because they are from different sources, feat and ability, and two different actions. Also that the damage is untyped, it melds together for the lovely damage you like ever so. If I'm totally off, please elaborate more on the current conflict.
jaelis 11-22-07, 12:39 AM	I think Spikes is saying that Cust Serv advised him that arcane strike should be treated as a swift action. He is also seems to be suggesting that you can perform a swift action in place of a move action to activate arcane strike twice and get the double damage. But in fact that substitution is illegal.
StruckingFuggle 11-22-07, 02:49 AM	Multiple uses of Arcane Strike probably wouldn't stack, anyway. Multiple bonuses from the same source, and all..
Merestil Haye 11-22-07, 09:21 AM	I ran Arcane Strike as a free action in my last campaign. There was never any question about the bonuses stacking, because the standard stacking rules make quite clear that they don't. However, the wording of Arcane Strike doesn't really support the conclusion that it was usable only once per round when first printed. Prior to the invention of swift actions, the template they used was that of a free action you can perform only once per round (see, for example, PHB page 98). If Arcane Strike had been intended to be used only once per round, the feat itself would have explicitly stated the restriction (and I'd have ruled differently in my campaign). So colour me unconvinced by Customer Services statement, at least regarding original intention. As for one use of AS boosting all natural weapons, I fail to see why that is bad news for Arcane Strike. PCs facing a dragon maybe.. :D
runestar 11-22-07, 09:29 AM	As for one use of AS boosting all natural weapons, I fail to see why that is bad news for Arcane Strike. PCs facing a dragon maybe.. Well, good or bad, it is a matter of perspective, and who is the recipient... A sorc polymorphed into a hydra who then uses arcane strike to fuel his attacks?:P Though I don't believe the designers never realized that a player could just burn all his slots to fuel one really massive arcane strike. Either they really screwed up, or assumed the "unnamed bonuses from same source do not stack" rule, though it would have helped to reiterate this, since said rule is quite esoteric, and few players are actually aware of this. Regardless, you only have 1 swift action/round, there are only 1-2 ways of getting more swift actions (and those come with hefty price tags), and the arcane spellsurge entry in complete mage pretty much sets a precedent that move/standard actions cannot be converted to additional swift actions. If it was vague then, it is hopefully clearer now.:) BTW, what did cust serv say exactly?:confused:
Merestil Haye 11-22-07, 10:16 AM	Well, good or bad, it is a matter of perspective, and who is the recipient... A sorc polymorphed into a hydra who then uses arcane strike to fuel his attacks?:P That's quite in line with what the feat says. Why shouldn't it be right? Though I don't believe the designers never realized that a player could just burn all his slots to fuel one really massive arcane strike. Either they really screwed up, or assumed the "unnamed bonuses from same source do not stack" rule, though it would have helped to reiterate this, since said rule is quite esoteric, and few players are actually aware of this.Unnamed bonuses from the same source do not stack. That is an underlying rule. You find it in the SRD under "basics". It's fundamental to the whole game. They dont need to repeat it every time because that would add pages and pages of unnecessary text. Regardless, you only have 1 swift action/round, there are only 1-2 ways of getting more swift actions (and those come with hefty price tags), and the arcane spellsurge entry in complete mage pretty much sets a precedent that move/standard actions cannot be converted to additional swift actions. If it was vague then, it is hopefully clearer now.:) BTW, what did cust serv say exactly?:confused:Swift actions are irrelevant. Arcane Strike was in a book that was written prior to the publishing of the first book to introduce swift actions1 (although the latter was written and published first). In those days, the template for an action that could be performed only once per round in addition to the standard and move actions was that the source of the ability explicitly stated that it could be used only once per round. Arcane Strike doesn't say that. It is not templated like Quicken Spell, and thus was not concepted as what we now call a swift action. Therefore retroactively changing the feat in this way requires formal errata, and that has not been issued. Consequently CS's assertion that it is a swift action is wrong. You still can't benefit from more than one use per round because, as the designers knew when they wrote the feat, two uses do not stack. 1Miniatures Handbook, which antedates CW by two months. So technically CS was in error about the history too.
jaelis 11-22-07, 12:03 PM	Unnamed bonuses from the same source do not stack. That is an underlying rule. You find it in the SRD under "basics". It's fundamental to the whole game. They dont need to repeat it every time because that would add pages and pages of unnecessary text. But normally damage isn't considered a "bonus" and isn't subject to the stacking rules. So I don't think the double damage argument can be dismissed out of hand.
Merestil Haye 11-22-07, 12:41 PM	But normally damage isn't considered a "bonus" and isn't subject to the stacking rules. So I don't think the double damage argument can be dismissed out of hand.That's a fair point. Although even if you could stack up vast quantities of damage, he'd be putting all his eggs in one basket, and doing that repeatedly will wind up really hurting you sooner or later. Attacks still miss on a roll of 1, remember. If it comes up in my game I will consider whether it needs houseruling and, if so, which ruling will do the least damage to my game; allowing it to work, ruling that bonus dice don't stack or ruling that it's a swift action.
DMaple 11-22-07, 02:55 PM	He is also seems to be suggesting that you can perform a swift action in place of a move action to activate arcane strike twice and get the double damage. But in fact that substitution is illegal. It's legal in Star Wars SAGA so perhaps someone in Customer Services is already getting 4th and 3rd Ed mixed up. :P
Aryxbez 11-22-07, 03:31 PM	By the rulings, it is a free action, means one could spend more than one spell slot. Technically I guess you could burn 2 2nd level spells for a total of +4 4d4 damage for example. Although like it was said, unnamed bonuses of same source don't meld together. Although I don't know much of the duskblade (don't have the PH2 on me currently), I'm sure if one is a free action, other is a swift action, then one can use both abilities at the same time. I think even if that duskblade swift action is a ability that=Arcane strikes ability. As the sources of both come from different places, one from a feat, the other from a class ability.
Cloudy 11-22-07, 05:44 PM	From what I've read about Arcane Strike: You can sacrifice as many spells as you want since it is a free action. The bonus to attack does not stack but the damage isn't indicated as "bonus" so it stacks (it says "extra damage"). Meaning that if you sacrifice ten level one spells you get +1 to attack and +10d4 to damage for all attacks made for one round. I agree with those saying that if the feat was meant to be used only once the creators would have written it in the description. I believe that at the time the feat was created, the only classes that would use it wouldn't really have that many spells per day (mainly multiclassed or prestige fighteroids/casters) so one spell sacrificed at a time would be the standard procedure. The feat works wonders on duskblade because the duskblade has exactly what is needed. A full bab, low level spells with a ton of uses everyday plus an ability that enchants the damage output even more. Use power attack as well and you get a real mess at level 13. The duskblade didn't exist at the time Arcane strike was created so that must be the reason there wasn't that much noice.
Spikes01k 11-22-07, 06:26 PM	He is also seems to be suggesting that you can perform a swift action in place of a move action to activate arcane strike twice and get the double damage. But in fact that substitution is illegal. Ok thanks for the info on that, wasn't sure.
Spikes01k 11-22-07, 06:31 PM	By the rulings, it is a free action, means one could spend more than one spell slot. Technically I guess you could burn 2 2nd level spells for a total of +4 4d4 damage for example. Although like it was said, unnamed bonuses of same source don't meld together. Although I don't know much of the duskblade (don't have the PH2 on me currently), I'm sure if one is a free action, other is a swift action, then one can use both abilities at the same time. I think even if that duskblade swift action is a ability that=Arcane strikes ability. As the sources of both come from different places, one from a feat, the other from a class ability. My point here is that checking the rules compendium, there is a statement that says this feat is supposed to be a swift action, not a free, and thus has been errataed in a round-a-bout way. So you could not channel more than one spell in this way.
Spikes01k 11-22-07, 06:33 PM	From what I've read about Arcane Strike: You can sacrifice as many spells as you want since it is a free action. The bonus to attack does not stack but the damage isn't indicated as "bonus" so it stacks (it says "extra damage"). Meaning that if you sacrifice ten level one spells you get +1 to attack and +10d4 to damage for all attacks made for one round. I agree with those saying that if the feat was meant to be used only once the creators would have written it in the description. I believe that at the time the feat was created, the only classes that would use it wouldn't really have that many spells per day (mainly multiclassed or prestige fighteroids/casters) so one spell sacrificed at a time would be the standard procedure. The feat works wonders on duskblade because the duskblade has exactly what is needed. A full bab, low level spells with a ton of uses everyday plus an ability that enchants the damage output even more. Use power attack as well and you get a real mess at level 13. The duskblade didn't exist at the time Arcane strike was created so that must be the reason there wasn't that much noice. Refer to my last post. Its a swift action now.
Merestil Haye 11-22-07, 07:54 PM	My point here is that checking the rules compendium, there is a statement that says this feat is supposed to be a swift action, not a free, and thus has been errataed in a round-a-bout way. So you could not channel more than one spell in this way.Where does it say that please? I haven't yet come across anything that supports revising Arcane Strike.
Bahumut 11-23-07, 03:47 AM	the way i see it, the Rules Compendium is that mystical "promised 3.5 errata" that we've been chasing like a carrot on a stick; the problem is that it is as generic as a politically correct holiday special. so in the end, while it wasn't exactly what we wanted, i consider it official binding errata...probably the last 3.5 errata we're gonna see.
DMaple 11-23-07, 04:49 AM	I consider it official binding errata. It is. probably the last 3.5 errata we're gonna see. It isn't, they have published the at least the Complete Mage, Magic Item Compendium errata after the Rules Compendium came out.
Bahumut 11-23-07, 06:30 AM	any new errata is much appreciated, seeing as how its the material thats most prevalent, i just wish they would have put out errata for Savage Species, as it's my favorite book =\