Balance - What's it for? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance - What's it for? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bkdubs123
08-30-07, 03:14 AM Has anyone actually used this skill? I know for a fact that I've never, EVER used this skill. Not as a DM, not as a player, and I know that NONE of the players in any campaign I've ever SEEN let alone played in has ever used it. It just doesn't seem like the skill matters in D&D whereas in real life, at least through synergy bonus, at can be a serious boon to all sorts of movement based endeavors (combat, sports, and dance for instance).

What do you use Balance for (in D&D of course)?
Salla
08-30-07, 03:15 AM Fighting on narrow surfaces and not getting hosed by the Grease spell.
ibayboy
08-30-07, 03:20 AM What do you use Balance for (in D&D of course)?

Last Sat. we were fighting Yuan-Ti assassins on a 100ft tower made of shipwrecks tied between two huge trees. Catwalks, rope bridges, ladders, and deck rails, made for a climbing, balancing, jumping frenzy.
Luckily my Goliath Warblade14/Monk2 was up to the task, (i love the Warblade skill set).My Warmage, not so much.
Dog_O_War
08-30-07, 03:21 AM Run (or play) a different game other than the plains bound, flat-world games you've clearly participated in.

Seriously though, you problably are skipping that part of the rules. Actually reading the skill will help you see what you've been missing every time you or one of your players goes charging through or over the forest, mountain slope, or dark room with no light source. It is on page 67 of the PHB incase your wondering.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-30-07, 03:26 AM Grease is a big one. Fighting on cliffs, narrow ledges, ships, and in big trees makes the skill pretty relevant as well. Though if you really want a lot of Balance practice (as well as Climb, Jump, and Open Lock), try playing a second-story man in an urban game sometime.
Kouk
08-30-07, 03:35 AM Balance usually only comes into play if the DM spends some time making the terrain different than the "normal" smooth stone floor.

Water makes it slippery, default natural caves are hard to move around in, ramps, garbage, tightropes...

The thing is though, having to make more skill checks just to move can slow the game down more, and many people prefer not dealing with that.
BugHunter
08-30-07, 09:10 AM Throwing marbles on the floor when someone is chasing you is a good way to slow them up since it requires a balance check to move or fight in the space.
bkdubs123
08-30-07, 11:14 AM Okay, we've never used grease either... and the checks against difficult terrain are often so painfully easy (DC 10 a lot of time?) that many people with no ranks or dexterity can make the rolls.

So other than what it sounds like you would use the skill for, no one's ever used it for anything (you know, no alternative uses of the skill or what have you)?
Nephlite
08-30-07, 11:22 AM Okay, we've never used grease either... and the checks against difficult terrain are often so painfully easy (DC 10 a lot of time?) that many people with no ranks or dexterity can make the rolls.

So other than what it sounds like you would use the skill for, no one's ever used it for anything (you know, no alternative uses of the skill or what have you)?

Still, even if you make the check: guess what you still lost your dex to AC without 5 ranks in balance. So that is one reason.
Frugal
08-30-07, 11:38 AM Man, maybe my group's different but it seems to come up all the time. I remember in one campaign one player would fail a balance check at least once every session (well until he remembered he was wearing slippers of spider climbing but that's a whole other matter).

Slippery surfaces can come up a lot. As can narrow surfaces or other precarious situations. In one adventure, that lasted several sessions, we were traversing an underwater river and routinely had to jump across slippery rocks (jump check then balance check for the landing), the river was poisoned and we were low level (4th to 5th) so for the longest time we had a running joke that terrain features were our greatest foes (we were taking more damage from failed jumps, balances and climbs than we were in combat).
tarkin
08-30-07, 12:18 PM If you have a Rogue around, that Rogue should be trying to force you to balance. It is a free AoO. Correction, free Sneak Attack, not AoO. Sorry.

There are very good reasons to get at least 5 ranks in Balance.

I would in fact take 5 ranks in Balance before I take 5 ranks in Swim.
Broken vacuum
08-30-07, 12:35 PM Okay, we've never used grease either... and the checks against difficult terrain are often so painfully easy (DC 10 a lot of time?) that many people with no ranks or dexterity can make the rolls.
Someone with a +0 balance modifier would fail a DC 10 check 45% of the time. Failing about half of the time you try something is not especially good. Add to this that armour check penalty applies - meaning that in earliest levels armoured characters probably have negative modifiers.
Then realise that these 'easy' base DCs are supposed to be modified when the situations call for it. And that should be pretty often. Water and rubble should not be that unusual in adventures.

So other than what it sounds like you would use the skill for, no one's ever used it for anything (you know, no alternative uses of the skill or what have you)?
Well, you can entertain people with it if you absolutely have to find another use for it.
In my experience, though, balance comes into play a lot. Charging is often a good tactical move (e.g. for quickly getting to enemy archers or caster behind the enemy front lines) and since you need to make a balance check if the ground is not more or less absolutely flat, balance checks are often necessary.
Hsien
08-30-07, 01:18 PM Our group doesn't use it alot but it does get occasional use as we cover a wide variety of terrains ( multiple DM's ) so ice/snow bridges/ledges or even just wet ones, logs in a swamp and across large gaps etc...

One exception:
We saw a ton of Balance checks in a game my bro' designed after watching way to much Ninja Warrior, he made a tournament adventure that had lots of obstacle course challenges, with only some combat events.
Tons of the various athletic checks, balance, jump, climb etc...with spells not allowed in most obstacle events.
bkdubs123
08-30-07, 01:43 PM Still, even if you make the check: guess what you still lost your dex to AC without 5 ranks in balance. So that is one reason.

That I did not know. Perhaps I do need to review the Balance rules...

@Broken Vacuum: For someone who is of average coordination and otherwise completely unskilled at balancing to succeed 55% of the time at doing it? I'd say that's pretty good. From what I understand (which could be sadly limited) you only need to make Balance checks for movement under certain types of difficult terrain (ice or other slippery surfaces or for precarious surfaces). Why then would I further modify the DC because the terrain is difficult? That's why I made the check in the first place.

@Tarkin: Wait, what? Force who to balance? The enemy I would assume, but how would he do that? (A good tactic, I guess, if there are rules for it.)

@Frugal: Our groups are quite different. In the scenario of cross the river, we wouldn't have even tried it, else we would have made a sturdy bridge of something else rather than try to tiptoe across slippery rocks.
Frugal
08-30-07, 01:53 PM @Broken Vacuum: For someone who is of average coordination and otherwise completely unskilled at balancing to succeed 55% of the time at doing it? I'd say that's pretty good. From what I understand (which could be sadly limited) you only need to make Balance checks for movement under certain types of difficult terrain (ice or other slippery surfaces or for precarious surfaces). Why then would I further modify the DC because the terrain is difficult? That's why I made the check in the first place.

Because you have a DC for a slippery surface, you have a DC for a narrow surface, you have a DC for an uneven surface. Well what if you have a slippery uneven surface? Or an uneven narrow surface? Or a slippery narrow uneven surface? And so on. Or it's any of those but in the dark. Or he's trying to do it while combining it with spring attack or shot on the run. You get the idea.

@Frugal: Our groups are quite different. In the scenario of cross the river, we wouldn't have even tried it, else we would have made a sturdy bridge of something else rather than try to tiptoe across slippery rocks.

Yeah, wasn't really an option in the circumstances and crossing was necessary. Now, party members engaging each other in a death duel and chasing after the party member who revealed his evil nature by taking the opportunity to cheap shot one of the fighters in the duel, offing him in the process, wasn't necessary but that's a very, very long story. And yes, it was a weird campaign.
key
08-30-07, 02:42 PM What do you use Balance for (in D&D of course)?
Nothing. Don't need it, Jump, or Climb as a shimmerling.
Kouk
08-30-07, 03:00 PM @Tarkin: Wait, what? Force who to balance? The enemy I would assume, but how would he do that? (A good tactic, I guess, if there are rules for it.)

Being Attacked while Balancing

You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.

If someone is balancing without 5 ranks in Balance, they lose their Dex bonus to AC, which allows Sneak Attacks. There is no AoO just for balancing.

You can force a balance with the help of your friendly neighborhood spellcaster and a Grease spell (or UMD + Scroll or Wand).

Similarly, Climbing and Swimming can deny Dex bonus.
tyrecian
08-30-07, 03:23 PM Balance.

I can see where you are coming from, and i can also sese why this thread has generated so many responses. Rarely does balance come up, but when it does it can be a real killer. I once played in a campaign where there was a balance check for crossing a ledge, the PC who failed fell 200' to his death. Noone else tried, and he started a new PC, but it was interesting.

Grease is a fine example of how balance can be used against chars. Another fine spell that takes balance into account is Sleet Storm, an awesome 3rd level spell for DMs seeking to slow that heavily armorred PC party.

The fact of the matter is balance is a skill that PCs rarely take up, unless they are already aware of the uses it has. It is also a skill that rarely scales well. Fighters and CLerics usually start out with a negative balance and end with a negative balance. Depending on what your DM is thinking and how he plays that can be a killer.

You say you wouldnt try crossing the river without building a bridge, what if you were being chased by a high CR monster and you didnt have time and the party was hurt. You would instead take death? or try to swim across the river (perhaps harder in fast current, and double the AC penalty, where balance is 1x)?

Climbing is another good example. A crafty DM might require a balance check periodically when climbing so that you can synergize with climbing skill. It might also be required, or the climb gets harder. I use this tactic alot for high strength heavy armorred PCs that think they can scale cliffs just because they are strong. Any climber knows there are other things involved.

It really just depends on the difficulty level of your campaign. Sounds like if you have never seen or anyone in your party used balance, then your DM is not putting it in. Probably becasue he knows what your PCs are capable of, adn doesnt want to absolutely screw you with balance checks.

A dwarf fighter with a +1 dex mod wearing full plate and using a heavy shield has an AC penalty of -8. With no ranks in balance he is at -7 on his check. Now suppose i set up a trap that is severely slippery and sloped (an iced floor in the base of a tower's dungeon) that means that it is (alone, with no exp added to make it tougher, simply the base from the balance chart) 7 DC. Meaning the swarf has to roll a 14 simply to make the check. That can be a tough roll. Upon passing the roll, the Dwarf is both flat footed and can only move 10', ouch, hope he isnt in melee (which he was) so that he might spend several rounds trying to get out of the ice floor, making balance checks every single round. He is bound to fail one eventually, sliding ever closer to the mysterious pit in the middle of the room... not to mention prone... :D

High difficulty campaigns involve the use of almost every stat, so that the party of PCs needs to be balanced. Balance is an example of a DM skill, imo, one in which the DM makes the player roll, rather than the player choosing. It is the main dex roll i ask for from my players. Like listen and spot are wisdom, search is Int, diplomacy is Char, climb and swim are strength, Concentration (and drowning) Con... If each adventure you arent taking stat damage as well as HP damage and not making at least 4/6 stat rolls then the DM isnt giving you both barrells.

It depends on how you play. If you want to see more balance checks, ask your DM for a more difficult level of play, and be prepared for the next level of PC design you will have to think on. If you are having fun playing PCs that master certain skills rather than diluting into the more advanced ideas of PCs needing many skills, then i would suggest keeping the game the same. Remember that it is the level of fun, not difficulty and use of all skills and stats that makes the game so great.

Grease is a 1st (on Edit, thanks Nephlite:)) level spell, and one of the premier low level battlefield control spells in the GAME. If your party never uses it, then you should think on playing a caster and looking at the CharOp boards for Conjuration Wizards. If your DM doesnt ever use balance, teach him to :D by owning his NPCs.
tarkin
08-30-07, 03:25 PM Yeah. Woops that was a bad writing on my fault. I thought Sneak Attack but wrote AoO.

Fixed.
Nephlite
08-30-07, 03:32 PM Grease is a 2nd level spell, and one of the premier low level battlefield control spells in the GAME. If your party never uses it, then you should think on playing a caster and looking at the CharOp boards for Conjuration Wizards. If your DM doesnt ever use balance, teach him to :D by owning his NPCs.

Grease is 1st level, but yeah, it would be just as good at 2nd. Its usefulness stays as long as no one is flying (or slithering, can snakes balance?).
lint trap
08-30-07, 03:41 PM I played a game with a Scout who maxed out his ranks in Balance. When I asked him why, he showed me the rules on moving through trees from Races of the Wild. So if you ever want to Tarzan up, Balance is the way to go.
Frugal
08-30-07, 03:47 PM How about the stereotypical chase across rooftops? Pitched roofs and slippery, balance checks to move across them, then jump check to next building, balance check for the landing, rinse and repeat. I put the balance check for the landing because I see the jump part as the "did he make the distance?" part, and then balance is to "stick the landing". If they make the jump but fail the balance then I'd have them slip on the roof, possibly start sliding down the roof (with a reflex save to catch themselves before falling), even if it's just stumbling then it's going to slow them down.
bkdubs123
08-30-07, 04:32 PM I don't know why I suddenly had the urge to start this conversation, but I'm glad it has spurred this kind of discussion!

What's more bizarre is that I often played highly skilled characters, and I often sink ranks into Balance that I know I'll never use, just because I know that I would be using it in real life so often (in real life I use balance ALL the time, in sports, sparring and fencing. its so useful for more complicated movements - the ones that the opponent is least expecting).
Rasmus Wagner
08-30-07, 05:57 PM I would in fact take 5 ranks in Balance before I take 5 ranks in Swim.

What, because your comrades can have lunch and braid a rope out of their hair to pull you out before you're in any danger of drowning?
Dheran
08-30-07, 06:09 PM Has anyone actually used this skill? I know for a fact that I've never, EVER used this skill. Not as a DM, not as a player You've been using some awfully clean campaign settings, then. That's not realistic. Rain-slicked stone, moss, mud, ice, snow, and loose stones (scree) will all require Balance checks. And combat actions can add to the slickness of surfaces: the aforementioned Grease spell, oil, and soot will all make stone floors slippery, and clever PCs and enemies will slick things up for a tactical advantage.

The real world isn't made up of flat ground with good footing. Balance is the skill that lets you cope with reality in the D&D world.
Nephlite
08-30-07, 06:16 PM What, because your comrades can have lunch and braid a rope out of their hair to pull you out before you're in any danger of drowning?

Yeah, Assuming you have a good con score of course.
tyrecian
08-30-07, 06:55 PM lol off topic, but i played in a campaign once where the "hold breath" option wasnt available in combat. Meaning that as soon as you took damage, or performed a strenuous activity (such as a melee attack) you had to start making those con checks.

3 round death aint no joke if you are average con, even a little above average can be a real pain...
Mojo_Rat
08-30-07, 07:50 PM As somone said previously Balance is something to apply in conjunction with other skills. the Example being climb.

In a game we had previously our dwarf fighter had his Axe disarmed with telekinis and then the wizard dimension doored on top of a 3 story building and dropped his weapon there.

He had to balance on the ledge on one of the windows of the top story before he could attempt to pull himself up. Both were dc 10 checks but given He was wearing full plate. .. anyhow how he fell three stories and i had to retrieve is weapon at the end of the battle.

Its also something you can force your enemies to do. Jump op on ledges or counter tops and see if the oponents follow you if you have a char skilled in balance.

Theres also some new spells introduced in OHB Vertigo and mass Vertigo victim is making a dc10 balance check every round. Which in conjunctionw ith that 0 dex bonus without 5 ranks of balance bit is pretty nasty.
Psikerlord
08-30-07, 11:38 PM balance is for rogue types and heavily armoured fighters sick of being prone due to grease spells (armour AP applies, so a fullplate fighter is going for something like balance DC 17, quite a good chance of falling over if they have no ranks).
Case W.
08-30-07, 11:53 PM If you have 10 ranks in balance, you can make a balance check instead of a strength or dexterity check to avoid being tripped. You take a -10 penalty on your balance check but it can be a great deal if you've invested the ranks in the balance skill (complete adventurer p.97).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bkdubs123 08-30-07, 03:14 AM	Has anyone actually used this skill? I know for a fact that I've never, EVER used this skill. Not as a DM, not as a player, and I know that NONE of the players in any campaign I've ever SEEN let alone played in has ever used it. It just doesn't seem like the skill matters in D&D whereas in real life, at least through synergy bonus, at can be a serious boon to all sorts of movement based endeavors (combat, sports, and dance for instance). What do you use Balance for (in D&D of course)?
Salla 08-30-07, 03:15 AM	Fighting on narrow surfaces and not getting hosed by the Grease spell.
ibayboy 08-30-07, 03:20 AM	What do you use Balance for (in D&D of course)? Last Sat. we were fighting Yuan-Ti assassins on a 100ft tower made of shipwrecks tied between two huge trees. Catwalks, rope bridges, ladders, and deck rails, made for a climbing, balancing, jumping frenzy. Luckily my Goliath Warblade14/Monk2 was up to the task, (i love the Warblade skill set).My Warmage, not so much.
Dog_O_War 08-30-07, 03:21 AM	Run (or play) a different game other than the plains bound, flat-world games you've clearly participated in. Seriously though, you problably are skipping that part of the rules. Actually reading the skill will help you see what you've been missing every time you or one of your players goes charging through or over the forest, mountain slope, or dark room with no light source. It is on page 67 of the PHB incase your wondering.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-30-07, 03:26 AM	Grease is a big one. Fighting on cliffs, narrow ledges, ships, and in big trees makes the skill pretty relevant as well. Though if you really want a lot of Balance practice (as well as Climb, Jump, and Open Lock), try playing a second-story man in an urban game sometime.
Kouk 08-30-07, 03:35 AM	Balance usually only comes into play if the DM spends some time making the terrain different than the "normal" smooth stone floor. Water makes it slippery, default natural caves are hard to move around in, ramps, garbage, tightropes... The thing is though, having to make more skill checks just to move can slow the game down more, and many people prefer not dealing with that.
BugHunter 08-30-07, 09:10 AM	Throwing marbles on the floor when someone is chasing you is a good way to slow them up since it requires a balance check to move or fight in the space.
bkdubs123 08-30-07, 11:14 AM	Okay, we've never used grease either... and the checks against difficult terrain are often so painfully easy (DC 10 a lot of time?) that many people with no ranks or dexterity can make the rolls. So other than what it sounds like you would use the skill for, no one's ever used it for anything (you know, no alternative uses of the skill or what have you)?
Nephlite 08-30-07, 11:22 AM	Okay, we've never used grease either... and the checks against difficult terrain are often so painfully easy (DC 10 a lot of time?) that many people with no ranks or dexterity can make the rolls. So other than what it sounds like you would use the skill for, no one's ever used it for anything (you know, no alternative uses of the skill or what have you)? Still, even if you make the check: guess what you still lost your dex to AC without 5 ranks in balance. So that is one reason.
Frugal 08-30-07, 11:38 AM	Man, maybe my group's different but it seems to come up all the time. I remember in one campaign one player would fail a balance check at least once every session (well until he remembered he was wearing slippers of spider climbing but that's a whole other matter). Slippery surfaces can come up a lot. As can narrow surfaces or other precarious situations. In one adventure, that lasted several sessions, we were traversing an underwater river and routinely had to jump across slippery rocks (jump check then balance check for the landing), the river was poisoned and we were low level (4th to 5th) so for the longest time we had a running joke that terrain features were our greatest foes (we were taking more damage from failed jumps, balances and climbs than we were in combat).
tarkin 08-30-07, 12:18 PM	If you have a Rogue around, that Rogue should be trying to force you to balance. It is a free AoO. Correction, free Sneak Attack, not AoO. Sorry. There are very good reasons to get at least 5 ranks in Balance. I would in fact take 5 ranks in Balance before I take 5 ranks in Swim.
Broken vacuum 08-30-07, 12:35 PM	Okay, we've never used grease either... and the checks against difficult terrain are often so painfully easy (DC 10 a lot of time?) that many people with no ranks or dexterity can make the rolls. Someone with a +0 balance modifier would fail a DC 10 check 45% of the time. Failing about half of the time you try something is not especially good. Add to this that armour check penalty applies - meaning that in earliest levels armoured characters probably have negative modifiers. Then realise that these 'easy' base DCs are supposed to be modified when the situations call for it. And that should be pretty often. Water and rubble should not be that unusual in adventures. So other than what it sounds like you would use the skill for, no one's ever used it for anything (you know, no alternative uses of the skill or what have you)? Well, you can entertain people with it if you absolutely have to find another use for it. In my experience, though, balance comes into play a lot. Charging is often a good tactical move (e.g. for quickly getting to enemy archers or caster behind the enemy front lines) and since you need to make a balance check if the ground is not more or less absolutely flat, balance checks are often necessary.
Hsien 08-30-07, 01:18 PM	Our group doesn't use it alot but it does get occasional use as we cover a wide variety of terrains ( multiple DM's ) so ice/snow bridges/ledges or even just wet ones, logs in a swamp and across large gaps etc... One exception: We saw a ton of Balance checks in a game my bro' designed after watching way to much Ninja Warrior, he made a tournament adventure that had lots of obstacle course challenges, with only some combat events. Tons of the various athletic checks, balance, jump, climb etc...with spells not allowed in most obstacle events.
bkdubs123 08-30-07, 01:43 PM	Still, even if you make the check: guess what you still lost your dex to AC without 5 ranks in balance. So that is one reason. That I did not know. Perhaps I do need to review the Balance rules... @Broken Vacuum: For someone who is of average coordination and otherwise completely unskilled at balancing to succeed 55% of the time at doing it? I'd say that's pretty good. From what I understand (which could be sadly limited) you only need to make Balance checks for movement under certain types of difficult terrain (ice or other slippery surfaces or for precarious surfaces). Why then would I further modify the DC because the terrain is difficult? That's why I made the check in the first place. @Tarkin: Wait, what? Force who to balance? The enemy I would assume, but how would he do that? (A good tactic, I guess, if there are rules for it.) @Frugal: Our groups are quite different. In the scenario of cross the river, we wouldn't have even tried it, else we would have made a sturdy bridge of something else rather than try to tiptoe across slippery rocks.
Frugal 08-30-07, 01:53 PM	@Broken Vacuum: For someone who is of average coordination and otherwise completely unskilled at balancing to succeed 55% of the time at doing it? I'd say that's pretty good. From what I understand (which could be sadly limited) you only need to make Balance checks for movement under certain types of difficult terrain (ice or other slippery surfaces or for precarious surfaces). Why then would I further modify the DC because the terrain is difficult? That's why I made the check in the first place. Because you have a DC for a slippery surface, you have a DC for a narrow surface, you have a DC for an uneven surface. Well what if you have a slippery uneven surface? Or an uneven narrow surface? Or a slippery narrow uneven surface? And so on. Or it's any of those but in the dark. Or he's trying to do it while combining it with spring attack or shot on the run. You get the idea. @Frugal: Our groups are quite different. In the scenario of cross the river, we wouldn't have even tried it, else we would have made a sturdy bridge of something else rather than try to tiptoe across slippery rocks. Yeah, wasn't really an option in the circumstances and crossing was necessary. Now, party members engaging each other in a death duel and chasing after the party member who revealed his evil nature by taking the opportunity to cheap shot one of the fighters in the duel, offing him in the process, wasn't necessary but that's a very, very long story. And yes, it was a weird campaign.
key 08-30-07, 02:42 PM	What do you use Balance for (in D&D of course)? Nothing. Don't need it, Jump, or Climb as a shimmerling.
Kouk 08-30-07, 03:00 PM	@Tarkin: Wait, what? Force who to balance? The enemy I would assume, but how would he do that? (A good tactic, I guess, if there are rules for it.) Being Attacked while Balancing You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing. If someone is balancing without 5 ranks in Balance, they lose their Dex bonus to AC, which allows Sneak Attacks. There is no AoO just for balancing. You can force a balance with the help of your friendly neighborhood spellcaster and a Grease spell (or UMD + Scroll or Wand). Similarly, Climbing and Swimming can deny Dex bonus.
tyrecian 08-30-07, 03:23 PM	Balance. I can see where you are coming from, and i can also sese why this thread has generated so many responses. Rarely does balance come up, but when it does it can be a real killer. I once played in a campaign where there was a balance check for crossing a ledge, the PC who failed fell 200' to his death. Noone else tried, and he started a new PC, but it was interesting. Grease is a fine example of how balance can be used against chars. Another fine spell that takes balance into account is Sleet Storm, an awesome 3rd level spell for DMs seeking to slow that heavily armorred PC party. The fact of the matter is balance is a skill that PCs rarely take up, unless they are already aware of the uses it has. It is also a skill that rarely scales well. Fighters and CLerics usually start out with a negative balance and end with a negative balance. Depending on what your DM is thinking and how he plays that can be a killer. You say you wouldnt try crossing the river without building a bridge, what if you were being chased by a high CR monster and you didnt have time and the party was hurt. You would instead take death? or try to swim across the river (perhaps harder in fast current, and double the AC penalty, where balance is 1x)? Climbing is another good example. A crafty DM might require a balance check periodically when climbing so that you can synergize with climbing skill. It might also be required, or the climb gets harder. I use this tactic alot for high strength heavy armorred PCs that think they can scale cliffs just because they are strong. Any climber knows there are other things involved. It really just depends on the difficulty level of your campaign. Sounds like if you have never seen or anyone in your party used balance, then your DM is not putting it in. Probably becasue he knows what your PCs are capable of, adn doesnt want to absolutely screw you with balance checks. A dwarf fighter with a +1 dex mod wearing full plate and using a heavy shield has an AC penalty of -8. With no ranks in balance he is at -7 on his check. Now suppose i set up a trap that is severely slippery and sloped (an iced floor in the base of a tower's dungeon) that means that it is (alone, with no exp added to make it tougher, simply the base from the balance chart) 7 DC. Meaning the swarf has to roll a 14 simply to make the check. That can be a tough roll. Upon passing the roll, the Dwarf is both flat footed and can only move 10', ouch, hope he isnt in melee (which he was) so that he might spend several rounds trying to get out of the ice floor, making balance checks every single round. He is bound to fail one eventually, sliding ever closer to the mysterious pit in the middle of the room... not to mention prone... :D High difficulty campaigns involve the use of almost every stat, so that the party of PCs needs to be balanced. Balance is an example of a DM skill, imo, one in which the DM makes the player roll, rather than the player choosing. It is the main dex roll i ask for from my players. Like listen and spot are wisdom, search is Int, diplomacy is Char, climb and swim are strength, Concentration (and drowning) Con... If each adventure you arent taking stat damage as well as HP damage and not making at least 4/6 stat rolls then the DM isnt giving you both barrells. It depends on how you play. If you want to see more balance checks, ask your DM for a more difficult level of play, and be prepared for the next level of PC design you will have to think on. If you are having fun playing PCs that master certain skills rather than diluting into the more advanced ideas of PCs needing many skills, then i would suggest keeping the game the same. Remember that it is the level of fun, not difficulty and use of all skills and stats that makes the game so great. Grease is a 1st (on Edit, thanks Nephlite:)) level spell, and one of the premier low level battlefield control spells in the GAME. If your party never uses it, then you should think on playing a caster and looking at the CharOp boards for Conjuration Wizards. If your DM doesnt ever use balance, teach him to :D by owning his NPCs.
tarkin 08-30-07, 03:25 PM	Yeah. Woops that was a bad writing on my fault. I thought Sneak Attack but wrote AoO. Fixed.
Nephlite 08-30-07, 03:32 PM	Grease is a 2nd level spell, and one of the premier low level battlefield control spells in the GAME. If your party never uses it, then you should think on playing a caster and looking at the CharOp boards for Conjuration Wizards. If your DM doesnt ever use balance, teach him to :D by owning his NPCs. Grease is 1st level, but yeah, it would be just as good at 2nd. Its usefulness stays as long as no one is flying (or slithering, can snakes balance?).
lint trap 08-30-07, 03:41 PM	I played a game with a Scout who maxed out his ranks in Balance. When I asked him why, he showed me the rules on moving through trees from Races of the Wild. So if you ever want to Tarzan up, Balance is the way to go.
Frugal 08-30-07, 03:47 PM	How about the stereotypical chase across rooftops? Pitched roofs and slippery, balance checks to move across them, then jump check to next building, balance check for the landing, rinse and repeat. I put the balance check for the landing because I see the jump part as the "did he make the distance?" part, and then balance is to "stick the landing". If they make the jump but fail the balance then I'd have them slip on the roof, possibly start sliding down the roof (with a reflex save to catch themselves before falling), even if it's just stumbling then it's going to slow them down.
bkdubs123 08-30-07, 04:32 PM	I don't know why I suddenly had the urge to start this conversation, but I'm glad it has spurred this kind of discussion! What's more bizarre is that I often played highly skilled characters, and I often sink ranks into Balance that I know I'll never use, just because I know that I would be using it in real life so often (in real life I use balance ALL the time, in sports, sparring and fencing. its so useful for more complicated movements - the ones that the opponent is least expecting).
Rasmus Wagner 08-30-07, 05:57 PM	I would in fact take 5 ranks in Balance before I take 5 ranks in Swim. What, because your comrades can have lunch and braid a rope out of their hair to pull you out before you're in any danger of drowning?
Dheran 08-30-07, 06:09 PM	Has anyone actually used this skill? I know for a fact that I've never, EVER used this skill. Not as a DM, not as a player You've been using some awfully clean campaign settings, then. That's not realistic. Rain-slicked stone, moss, mud, ice, snow, and loose stones (scree) will all require Balance checks. And combat actions can add to the slickness of surfaces: the aforementioned Grease spell, oil, and soot will all make stone floors slippery, and clever PCs and enemies will slick things up for a tactical advantage. The real world isn't made up of flat ground with good footing. Balance is the skill that lets you cope with reality in the D&D world.
Nephlite 08-30-07, 06:16 PM	What, because your comrades can have lunch and braid a rope out of their hair to pull you out before you're in any danger of drowning? Yeah, Assuming you have a good con score of course.
tyrecian 08-30-07, 06:55 PM	lol off topic, but i played in a campaign once where the "hold breath" option wasnt available in combat. Meaning that as soon as you took damage, or performed a strenuous activity (such as a melee attack) you had to start making those con checks. 3 round death aint no joke if you are average con, even a little above average can be a real pain...
Mojo_Rat 08-30-07, 07:50 PM	As somone said previously Balance is something to apply in conjunction with other skills. the Example being climb. In a game we had previously our dwarf fighter had his Axe disarmed with telekinis and then the wizard dimension doored on top of a 3 story building and dropped his weapon there. He had to balance on the ledge on one of the windows of the top story before he could attempt to pull himself up. Both were dc 10 checks but given He was wearing full plate. .. anyhow how he fell three stories and i had to retrieve is weapon at the end of the battle. Its also something you can force your enemies to do. Jump op on ledges or counter tops and see if the oponents follow you if you have a char skilled in balance. Theres also some new spells introduced in OHB Vertigo and mass Vertigo victim is making a dc10 balance check every round. Which in conjunctionw ith that 0 dex bonus without 5 ranks of balance bit is pretty nasty.
Psikerlord 08-30-07, 11:38 PM	balance is for rogue types and heavily armoured fighters sick of being prone due to grease spells (armour AP applies, so a fullplate fighter is going for something like balance DC 17, quite a good chance of falling over if they have no ranks).
Case W. 08-30-07, 11:53 PM	If you have 10 ranks in balance, you can make a balance check instead of a strength or dexterity check to avoid being tripped. You take a -10 penalty on your balance check but it can be a great deal if you've invested the ranks in the balance skill (complete adventurer p.97).