Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 10-13-07, 12:38 PM	Hi Guys, I want to get a feel of the difference between the Bard's ability 'bardic knowledge' and the skills 'gather information' and 'local knowledge'. I understand ofcourse that the Bardic ability can be much more powerfull than these two skills, but i want to understand better what you can do with this ability and what you can't with these skills. The bardic ability seems to have a much broader range of 'info' and doesn't require you spending a couple of hours investigating like with 'info gathering': like 'local knowledge' you just 'know' something. The bardic ability seems to be a lot of 'knowledge' skills put into óne. Correct?
Zebppir 10-13-07, 12:43 PM	Hi Guys, I want to get a feel of the difference between the Bard's ability 'bardic knowledge' and the skills 'gather information' and 'local knowledge'. I understand ofcourse that the Bardic ability can be much more powerfull than these two skills, but i want to understand better what you can do with this ability and what you can't with these skills. The bardic ability seems to have a much broader range of 'info' and doesn't require you spending a couple of hours investigating like with 'info gathering': like 'local knowledge' you just 'know' something. The bardic ability seems to be a lot of 'knowledge' skills put into óne. Correct? it could as the bardic knowledge is primarily info like the name of BBEG or the name of a dragon, a certain battle where it was ETC... does that help?
Nicholas the Paladin 10-13-07, 12:57 PM	it could as the bardic knowledge is primarily info like the name of BBEG or the name of a dragon, a certain battle where it was ETC... does that help?hmmm, not quite. I see that 'bardic knowledge' is like all other knowledg-skills and is different then ' gather info' in the sense that the latter deals more with *recent* events. You seem to say that bardic knowledge gives you tidbits of knowledge, and doesn't give you a more 'overall' idea of what is going on (let's say in local events)...but then again, I don't think that many knowledge-skills would either. That's more for ' gather info' . Sorry, I still don't get it :D
Dracomorph 10-13-07, 09:38 PM	Most knowledge skills will get you specific, real examples or information. Bardic Knowledge, on the other hand, will get you legends and stories, mostly. It's better because you can hear legends about anything, from the creepy guy who lives in the haunted house the next town over, to stories about how dragons have colors and different breath weapons. Bardic knowledge covers all knowledge skills, pretty much, but in a much more vague way. At least, that's how it works in the games I play in. How's that?
Nicholas the Paladin 10-14-07, 03:18 AM	How's that? Thanks, that's something I can work with.
Jaxgaret 10-14-07, 04:43 AM	Bardic Knowledge is essentially whatever the DM wants it to be. I know that's really not too helpful, but it's true. It can be an "uber-Knowledge" check, or it can be relatively useless, depending on how the DM wants to adjudicate its use.
zeratulcraft 10-14-07, 05:51 AM	My DM runs it as a second knowledge check if you lack the real one. So my character has Know(Planes), on Planar matters I roll my Planes check first, then if I fail it get my Bardic check.
Operation_Shoestring 10-14-07, 06:37 AM	My DM runs it as a second knowledge check if you lack the real one. So my character has Know(Planes), on Planar matters I roll my Planes check first, then if I fail it get my Bardic check. That's sweet. Makes surviving those crazy planes easier.
zeratulcraft 10-14-07, 07:42 AM	That's sweet. Makes surviving those crazy planes easier. Aye, Planes is the only Knowledge skill I have ranks in, everything else I rely on Bardic for.
Jaxgaret 10-15-07, 12:05 AM	My DM runs it as a second knowledge check if you lack the real one. So my character has Know(Planes), on Planar matters I roll my Planes check first, then if I fail it get my Bardic check. That's exactly how we use it in our campaigns.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-15-07, 02:19 AM	My DM runs it as a second knowledge check if you lack the real one. So my character has Know(Planes), on Planar matters I roll my Planes check first, then if I fail it get my Bardic check. I think that's a really nice and flavorable way of dealing with it. Thanks for the idea.
LSMFT 10-15-07, 12:30 PM	I've generally seen it handled where Bardic Knowledge is limited to specific people, items, or places. For example, when the big slobbering monster appears in front of us, I make a k.planes check to see if I recognize that it is a Pit Fiend and I need to have someone cast bless weapon on my silver ax. Bardic Knowledge won't help me if I fail. The only way Bardic Knowledge would come into play in this scenario would be if it were no ordinary Pit Fiend, but Gluckcluck, leader of the elite guards of Dispater, or some thing like that. Gather Info is the skill you use after K.local. Every thing you don’t yet know, you have to find out.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-15-07, 01:09 PM	For example, when the big slobbering monster appears in front of us, I make a k.planes check to see if I recognize that it is a Pit Fiend and I need to have someone cast bless weapon on my silver ax. Bardic Knowledge won't help me if I fail. The only way Bardic Knowledge would come into play in this scenario would be if it were no ordinary Pit Fiend, but Gluckcluck, leader of the elite guards of Dispater, or some thing like that. Nice example, but I think that this interpretation is a bit too limited. Stories and legends can tell you that balor are fiends that inhabit one of the nine hells, are immune to some elements (like....etc) and have a lot of magical abilities (that deal with .....etc). I think that's a reasonable assumption. Stories can have wisdom and a lot of truth to it...on the other hand it can also be false. Too bad that they didn't make a way to really *fail* your Bardic Knowledge check. Gather Info is the skill you use after K.local. Every thing you don’t yet know, you have to find out. Hmm, that's a pretty practical interpretation. I like it.
LSMFT 10-15-07, 05:05 PM	Nice example, but I think that this interpretation is a bit too limited. Stories and legends can tell you that balor are fiends that inhabit one of the nine hells, are immune to some elements (like....etc) and have a lot of magical abilities (that deal with .....etc). I think that's a reasonable assumption. That's all true, but my thinking is that in that sort of situation, you failed to recognize that it was a devil at all, Bardic Knowledge don't give general information on creatures. So while you may know all those things about devils, you don't know to apply it in this particular situation. Just they way I've thought about it.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-16-07, 02:21 AM	That's all true, but my thinking is that in that sort of situation, you failed to recognize that it was a devil at all, Bardic Knowledge don't give general information on creatures. So while you may know all those things about devils, you don't know to apply it in this particular situation. Just they way I've thought about it. good reasoning, thanks. I'll think about it.
BW0222 10-17-07, 03:53 PM	Nicholas the Paladin, I want to get a feel of the difference between the Bard's ability 'bardic knowledge' and the skills 'gather information' and 'local knowledge'. Gather information lets you gain information which other people might know. It consists of asking around, knowing where to ask, talking with people, and generally convincing them it is a good idea to tell you such information. It doesn't help you unless someone in town knows what you want to know. It also takes considerable time. For example, you want to find someone and you don't know where they are. Gather information lets you ask around until you find someone who might know where that person is. Knowledge local tells you information about the people, culture, places, etc. of the area. Where a business might be, the name of the mayor, how powerful the theives guild might be, that women wear blue scrafs when they are married, that the city has a large stonecutter's guild, that iron and rice are the major exports of an area, that folks are generally unhappy about the king, etc. Bardic knowledge is generally more of a catch-all. If you are trying to emulate another knowledge skill you raise the DC by 5. Otherwise, typically, you get stories, tales, or hint-type clues which might lead you to the same result. As an example... A group is trying to find an NPC who stoles some rare gems and some suits of armor. They have followed him to a large city. The PCs try several rolls. * Gather information. The DM sets the DC at say 30. It's pretty hard to find this guy just visiting random inns, bars, and flop houses. * Knowledge Local. DC 10 - this is a large city. DC 15 - the nobles district has several jewelry stores. DC 20 - there are several fences know to operate near the docks. * Bardic Knowledge. All the above DCs at say 5 higher would give them similiar information. Otherwise they get rumors or stories about the above. For example, DC 15 might get him a story of a dwarven merchant who said that his cousin worked as a gemcutter in this city (a hint that it has some jewelry stores). A DC 20 might get them a funny story the bard heard from a sea captain saying that he bought several stools before sailing away which had writing on the bottom saying 'Property of the City Watch' (a hint that you can buy stolen goods near the docks). Now, given the above information, folks might try gather informations of gem/jewelry shops in the noble district looking for someone of a specific description (say DC 20) or they might check in with the thieves guild fences near the docks (say DC 25).
Colmarr 10-18-07, 02:53 AM	A bard may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) Bardic knowledge only yields information about people, places, or "legendary items". In effect, it might be seen as a subsitute for K(local), K(history), and possibly K(Arcane) or K(religion). It might also arguably be used to identify noteworthy planar locations such as the City of Brass. It's not a great substitute for the Knowledge skills because it is limited in what it applies to, but it is a handy little skill for a party to possess to ensure that they don't inadvertently tread on someone's/something's toes (for example by failing to realise that the sunken fortress is in the exact location where an temple used to be)...
sapient 10-21-07, 12:08 AM	Although my current gaming-group lacks a bard so bardic knowledge hasn't come into play, I try to play it out as much as possible, as long as it doesn't disrupt the flow of the game. (Instead of just handing over the sought piece of information. Even if there's pretty much of that too when I lack inspiration...) *Knowledge (of any relevant kind - local is seldom in use in our group): The info can be very precise, as if it was something the character learnt from a book, if that is consistent with his background. Sometimes I try to make it a bit scetchy anyway (depending on how successful the roll is) to reflect the lack of accurate sources. Especially if it is a check about the strengths and weaknesses of monsters my group encounter, I try to say things like "you have heard that this kind of creature seem to be almost immune to certain types of weapons, but the accounts differ on the exakt types. Some suggests that weapons made from the metal from the deepest mines of dwarfs and never tempered by modern furnaces would work." That gives a bit more flavor (in my opinion) then "you need cold iron to overcome DR". *Gather information: Typically random bits, often not immediately relevant or relevant in an off hand way (if I can make it up at the spot). Sometimes exagerated or obviously distorted, as rumors tend to be. Lack of detail, sometimes conflicting "even though some say that the wizard died many years ago, some maintain that he only made it seem that way..." Also, of course, modified by the success of the roll. If the roll is successful, most of what I feed them will have to be true, obviously. Otherwise there would be no use in the skill, if they ended up getting false information from a successful check - but there can be a lot of "random factoids" that are fun to make up and have no relevance what so ever but kind of hides the valuable bits. "It seems the BBEG had a soft spot for his sister, and a lot of his wealth was spent on her dowry - a beautiful summer palace by the lake. Unfortunately it burnt down eight years ago..." *Bardic knowledge (if that would come into play) would be something like "you remember a poem about this guy that you've heard other bards recite from time to time. It's not a particularly GOOD poem, but it says that he fought the dragon and took it's treasure. Then he apparently retired and built a small castle, that some versions of the poem would place in this location, but most would have in this location." (Trying to find out the location of a hero of olden days...) That way it is also possible that the different skills will yield different information as a result. A knowledge check will reveal the kind of things people would take note of in relation to the subject - but overlook things that they would take for granted (but may be unknown to the players even so). Gather info is what is passed around in the streets. It is almost alway fresh - yesterdays news is as forgotten as yesterdays beer. Bardic knowledge can fill in the gap by recounting the obscure details of the story, told by someone who was there and later told his story to a passing bard in a tavern who made it into a song.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-21-07, 02:53 PM	Thank you very much, these tips from all over the globe are very helpfull !
wizarddog 10-21-07, 06:26 PM	Nice example, but I think that this interpretation is a bit too limited. Stories and legends can tell you that balor are fiends that inhabit one of the nine hells, are immune to some elements (like....etc) and have a lot of magical abilities (that deal with .....etc). I think that's a reasonable assumption. Stories can have wisdom and a lot of truth to it...on the other hand it can also be false. Too bad that they didn't make a way to really *fail* your Bardic Knowledge check. Hmm, that's a pretty practical interpretation. I like it. In this case the Bardic check (if made) the Bard remembers the tale of Galic- the-Brave who slew the pit fiend Fegoor with his cold iron arrow. If he fails, he recalls the story of Balrek-the-Ever-Squire who had his head along with his spine uprooted from his torso by Fegoor. A really low roll and I would say the Bard heard a story that Fegoor is vulnerble to fire and they should concentrate fire attacks on him.:D
Nicholas the Paladin 10-22-07, 02:00 AM	In this case the Bardic check (if made) the Bard remembers the tale of Galic- the-Brave who slew the pit fiend Fegoor with his cold iron arrow. If he fails, he recalls the story of Balrek-the-Ever-Squire who had his head along with his spine uprooted from his torso by Fegoor. A really low roll and I would say the Bard heard a story that Fegoor is vulnerble to fire and they should concentrate fire attacks on him.:D nIce example ;) Let's say that this informatie is worth a DC25? DC20? When te bard makes a -10 check, he totally get's the wrong info. THis makes it fun for the DM aswell.
Daeva 10-28-07, 02:20 AM	i willtake this time to give my opinion on something. That is i dont like adding a penalty to an ability that doesn't already have one. is bardic knowledge so strong that missing a check by 10 should warrant potentially killing a party? or even a member?. yeah, exactly
Nicholas the Paladin 10-28-07, 02:34 AM	i willtake this time to give my opinion on something. That is i dont like adding a penalty to an ability that doesn't already have one. is bardic knowledge so strong that missing a check by 10 should warrant potentially killing a party? or even a member?. yeah, exactly well actually, I consider Bardic KNowledge to be pretty strong, when it gives you acces to allmost all knwoledge-skills. Adding a penalty to this ability, just increases the fun whe you get it all wrong (come on, getting a -10 is on let's say a DC 25 Bkn-check is very hard to do, even at 5th level)