Becoming better at skills without levelling up - idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Becoming better at skills without levelling up - idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pindar
04-17-07, 06:12 AM After yet another list of moans from my group about lack of skill points I decided to revisit the old RuneQuest rules from improving skills through practice and being taught.

I am thinking of introducing the following rules to my game.

Does this seem like a workable system for characters to get more skill points or is it game unbalancing?

Training and Practice

There are two possible ways to increase skills without leveling up and spending skill points.

Practice
The easiest way is practice. Through practice you may gain a circumstance modifier to a skill you already have at least one rank in, up to a maximum of your unmodified stat bonus for that skill. This bonus does not stack with any skill bonuses from feats.

So Malvin the 3rd level rogue with a 12 STR could over time get a +1 bonus on his Climb skill if he puts in enough time practicing.

To gain this benefit the character must spend 2 weeks per point of bonus doing nothing but practicing this skill.

So if Malvin spent 2 weeks doing nothing but practice his climb skill he could gain a +1 bonus on that skill.

Training
Training is the other way to increase skills, this gives you actual ranks in a skill.

First you must find a trainer, someone with the skill Profession – Teacher.
A teacher can teach up to half the number ranks in teach he has in a specific skill.

So someone with 4 Ranks in Profession – Teacher could teach up to 2 ranks in a skill.

To teach someone the trainer must make a skill check at the end of a two week period of a DC 10 + the rank of the skill being taught.

So to teach someone to swim 1 rank would take an instructor 2 weeks and a DC 11 (he can take 10) skill check at the end of it.

If he succeeded then the player would gain 1 rank in the skill.

It takes 2 weeks of training per skill rank to learn the new rank.

The cost of this is the minimum ranks of teaching skill needed x the rank of the skill being taught x 25 gp.

Training can never teach you more than 5 ranks in a skill.

To go from no ranks to 1 Rank costs 2*1*25 = 50 gp and 2 weeks
To go from 1 ranks to 2 Rank costs 4*2*25 = 200 gp and 4 weeks
To go from 2 ranks to 3 Rank costs 6*3*25 = 450 gp and 6 weeks
To go from 3 ranks to 4 Rank costs 8*4*25 = 800 gp and 8 weeks
To go from 4 ranks to 5 Rank costs 10*5*25 = 1250 gp and 10 weeks

So if someone wanted to do nothing but train with a teacher they could take 30 weeks and spend 2750 gold to learn 5 ranks in skill from scratch.
Nom
04-17-07, 06:41 AM Short answer: D&D uses a "level-based" advancement system. There's very little point in deliberately creating mechanics to bypass this.

In D&D, time is cheap. The expected wealth of an adventurer quickly surpasses cost of living. There is no particular mechanic stopping the PCs suspending in-game time for two years and doing whatever they like. Thus, any mechanic that makes it more attractive to not adventure than to adventure runs counter to the game design.
Pindar
04-17-07, 07:09 AM Short answer: D&D uses a "level-based" advancement system. There's very little point in deliberately creating mechanics to bypass this.

In D&D, time is cheap. The expected wealth of an adventurer quickly surpasses cost of living. There is no particular mechanic stopping the PCs suspending in-game time for two years and doing whatever they like. Thus, any mechanic that makes it more attractive to not adventure than to adventure runs counter to the game design.

That's true of course, but I am trying to come up with system that would help my players make their characters a bit more flexible without unbalancing things.

I could of course award more skill points per level but I don't want to do that.

Players can always opt to pass time but in game events don't always go on hold to suit the players.

Edit: PS I like your house sule for turning undead, I may well adopt it for my game
Nom
04-17-07, 07:31 PM That's true of course, but I am trying to come up with system that would help my players make their characters a bit more flexible without unbalancing things.Then award them "locked" skill points; skill points that can only be used for certain skills (eg profession, craft, or whatever) but otherwise follow the normal rules.

If they simply want to be "better", let them earn levels as normal or multiclass in bard, ranger or rogue (who have broader skill lists than the more focused classes).
Ashlan
04-17-07, 08:57 PM This will allow early entry into many PrC's though. Skill point requirements are a standard limitation on when you can enter certain powerful classes.
Pindar
04-18-07, 03:51 AM This will allow early entry into many PrC's though. Skill point requirements are a standard limitation on when you can enter certain powerful classes.

Ah, good point.

I had not considered that.

I have told them that if they want lots of skill points they should multi-class but most of my players hate doing that.

I do think that some classes have to many skills they should take but don't have enough skill points to take them.

A paladin IMO being the worst off.

Edit: so would something like the following be too unbalancing?
Skills
All players get one skill point a level for a “character flavour/hobby” skill
All players get one skill point a level that may be spent on any class skill that they have fewer than 5 ranks in.
Nom
04-18-07, 10:09 AM Generally no.

Though you would need to define "flavour/hobby" skill more precisely. You might also want to limit the "bonus class skill point" to character level or 5 ranks, whichever is less.
DarkRhystar
04-18-07, 12:15 PM If players want more skill points have them...

Take levels in a class that gives more skill points.
Increase their intelligence to gain more skill points.
Play a Human so as to get bonus skill points.

Next thing you know, they'll be whining they don't have enough feats...
Throg
04-18-07, 12:25 PM I like the idea, but I'd go with another method.

Keep the current skill points at each level, INCLUDING the skill ranks cap, and cross classing.

But then include along with it the Practice and Teaching.

This gives players things to do durring middle of adventure downtime. Unless you're characters are always on another adventure day after day, letting them improve their characters durring that week or 2 between their next job is good.

I'd limit Practice and Teaching as thus;

Practice - Prereq: Must have at least 4 skill points in the skill you wish to practice; Takes 1 Week(8 hours per day practicing) per +1 in a particular skill. If this skill is cross class, you gain 1/2 rank instead. You cannot gain more skill points then the normal cap for your level.

Teaching - Prereq:Must find a Teacher; 2 Weeks(8 hours per day learning) per +1 in a particular skill, but does not have to have any skill points invested yet. If this skill is cross class, you gain 1/2 rank instead. You cannot gain more skill points then the normal cap for your level.

Teachers - Anyone with 5 ranks or more can teach another person in a skill. The skill check DC needed is 10+(the number of ranks the student possesses in that skill). A Teacher NPC costs 20g per 2 weeks.

The reasoning behind that 20g cost for the teacher, that's more then enough for any regular person in a D&D world to survive off very comfortably. If he uses his services often, then he can get very wealthy easy. It is also an easy cost for lower level players, and at high levels it's not always possible to squeeze in 2 weeks just to learn one skill.

I think this would be a little more reasonable to keep players from getting into PRC super fast, and still give them the more skill points they want. Also keeps people from paying for the teacher once then spending 4 weeks at no cost to get up to 5 quickly. Minimum investment per skill to get up to 4 is 80g and 8 weeks of time.. not something every adventurer has access to (At least between lvl 1 and 2.. Shiney new sword and armor... or train?)
WinterPsionic
04-18-07, 01:53 PM A popular solution I've seen in use (in RL and On the boards is to compress skills).

In most cases this creates some imbalance but you can adjust as needed.

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Open Lock + Disable Device = Mechanics
Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics
Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics
Diplomacy + Gather Information = Conversationalist
Intimidate + Bluff = <Too Many Different Names>
Sense Motive + Listen = Keen Ear(amongst other names)
Handle Animal + Ride = Animal Lover
Decipher Script + Forgery = Code Breaker

There are a few otehr variations and plenty you can do on your own, if you notice though with the system above, a Rogue will almost always be maxed in nearly everything.
GinTonic
04-18-07, 06:55 PM Another problem with the practice/training scheme is that characters that craft (magic items or otherwise) will want to spend all or at least most of their time crafting.

Here's another idea. Every time a PC has a meaningful or difficult success with a skill, it's recorded. Perodically (twice per level?) the DM chooses (or randomly selects) one of the skills each PC has had a meaningful success with to boost by 1 rank.
wizarddog
04-18-07, 09:58 PM Another option is to allow retraining. Maybe they regret putting skill points in Appraise and want to instead have it in Use magic Item. They can shuffle the points over provided they pay the cost and time.

But seriously why are they complaining about skill points? Majority skills don't require ranks to use. If they wanted better spot and listen they can take the feats, increase wisdom, or multiclass to improve them. Rogues, Bards, and Rangers are classes for the skillful. If they want a skillful characetr that is what they should play. How freaking high do they want them?
Pindar
04-19-07, 11:19 AM I think this is probably what I will do:

All players can qualify for one extra skill point a level that can be used for a "knowledge/craft/profession" skill.

All players can qualify for one extra skill point a level that may be spent on any class skill.

To get these points you must spend a week training for each point

These free points cannot take any skill over 5 ranks.

The cost is of the training 50 gp a week.

So to get both points each time a character levels up he can take 2 extra weeks training and 100 gp.

The feedback in this thread has been very helpful.
shift244
04-20-07, 08:56 PM When practicing a hobby, a person spends time gaining experience by doing activities related to the hobby. When enough experience is gained, that person levels up and spends a skill point from leveling up into that skill. That basically how skills are gained with some fluff in it. An adventurer busy slicing orcs and running from fireballs have less time to spend on whatever hobbies s/he might be interested in (unless they are slicing orcs and/or running from fireballs) as compared to someone leading a more peaceful lifestyle.

The skill points granted to each class at each level is supposed to represent the amount of time said character chooses to spend the time in the past levels worth of xp in practicing those hobbies or goals. Ditto for any other class related gains like BAB, saves, bonus feats etc.

Allowing training by paying in time spent, is akin to gaining "xp" specifically for skill points and no other area. It allows low skill point per level classes to by-pass the the level restriction by not gaining other class related benefits of high skill points per level character. If such is to be implemented, then it should only be fair if the rogue gets to train in swordplay (gain BAB), or if the mage so chooses to train in spellcasting (gain caster level) instead of skill points during those time a paladin chooses to practice making wicker baskets. Training to cast a spell make take up to 4 times longer than to gain a skill point, but it should be allowed under similar reasoning.

Oh, and each additional skill rank should not take the same amount of time. As the skill ranks go higher, it become increasingly difficult to learn something new, discover new tricks etc (represented by the exponentially scaling xp in the normal leveling system). If training is considered, the time taken to gain the next skill rank should be something along the line of:
Weeks Spent = Current Skill Rank x 3 weeks

Just my thoughts.:)
temparus2000
04-20-07, 09:19 PM you definately don't want to give more skill points per level. Apart from the already-mentioned "prestige class problem", they will also have early access to many epic feats (once they are epic)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pindar 04-17-07, 06:12 AM	After yet another list of moans from my group about lack of skill points I decided to revisit the old RuneQuest rules from improving skills through practice and being taught. I am thinking of introducing the following rules to my game. Does this seem like a workable system for characters to get more skill points or is it game unbalancing? Training and Practice There are two possible ways to increase skills without leveling up and spending skill points. Practice The easiest way is practice. Through practice you may gain a circumstance modifier to a skill you already have at least one rank in, up to a maximum of your unmodified stat bonus for that skill. This bonus does not stack with any skill bonuses from feats. So Malvin the 3rd level rogue with a 12 STR could over time get a +1 bonus on his Climb skill if he puts in enough time practicing. To gain this benefit the character must spend 2 weeks per point of bonus doing nothing but practicing this skill. So if Malvin spent 2 weeks doing nothing but practice his climb skill he could gain a +1 bonus on that skill. Training Training is the other way to increase skills, this gives you actual ranks in a skill. First you must find a trainer, someone with the skill Profession – Teacher. A teacher can teach up to half the number ranks in teach he has in a specific skill. So someone with 4 Ranks in Profession – Teacher could teach up to 2 ranks in a skill. To teach someone the trainer must make a skill check at the end of a two week period of a DC 10 + the rank of the skill being taught. So to teach someone to swim 1 rank would take an instructor 2 weeks and a DC 11 (he can take 10) skill check at the end of it. If he succeeded then the player would gain 1 rank in the skill. It takes 2 weeks of training per skill rank to learn the new rank. The cost of this is the minimum ranks of teaching skill needed x the rank of the skill being taught x 25 gp. Training can never teach you more than 5 ranks in a skill. To go from no ranks to 1 Rank costs 2125 = 50 gp and 2 weeks To go from 1 ranks to 2 Rank costs 4225 = 200 gp and 4 weeks To go from 2 ranks to 3 Rank costs 6325 = 450 gp and 6 weeks To go from 3 ranks to 4 Rank costs 8425 = 800 gp and 8 weeks To go from 4 ranks to 5 Rank costs 10525 = 1250 gp and 10 weeks So if someone wanted to do nothing but train with a teacher they could take 30 weeks and spend 2750 gold to learn 5 ranks in skill from scratch.
Nom 04-17-07, 06:41 AM	Short answer: D&D uses a "level-based" advancement system. There's very little point in deliberately creating mechanics to bypass this. In D&D, time is cheap. The expected wealth of an adventurer quickly surpasses cost of living. There is no particular mechanic stopping the PCs suspending in-game time for two years and doing whatever they like. Thus, any mechanic that makes it more attractive to not adventure than to adventure runs counter to the game design.
Pindar 04-17-07, 07:09 AM	Short answer: D&D uses a "level-based" advancement system. There's very little point in deliberately creating mechanics to bypass this. In D&D, time is cheap. The expected wealth of an adventurer quickly surpasses cost of living. There is no particular mechanic stopping the PCs suspending in-game time for two years and doing whatever they like. Thus, any mechanic that makes it more attractive to not adventure than to adventure runs counter to the game design. That's true of course, but I am trying to come up with system that would help my players make their characters a bit more flexible without unbalancing things. I could of course award more skill points per level but I don't want to do that. Players can always opt to pass time but in game events don't always go on hold to suit the players. Edit: PS I like your house sule for turning undead, I may well adopt it for my game
Nom 04-17-07, 07:31 PM	That's true of course, but I am trying to come up with system that would help my players make their characters a bit more flexible without unbalancing things.Then award them "locked" skill points; skill points that can only be used for certain skills (eg profession, craft, or whatever) but otherwise follow the normal rules. If they simply want to be "better", let them earn levels as normal or multiclass in bard, ranger or rogue (who have broader skill lists than the more focused classes).
Ashlan 04-17-07, 08:57 PM	This will allow early entry into many PrC's though. Skill point requirements are a standard limitation on when you can enter certain powerful classes.
Pindar 04-18-07, 03:51 AM	This will allow early entry into many PrC's though. Skill point requirements are a standard limitation on when you can enter certain powerful classes. Ah, good point. I had not considered that. I have told them that if they want lots of skill points they should multi-class but most of my players hate doing that. I do think that some classes have to many skills they should take but don't have enough skill points to take them. A paladin IMO being the worst off. Edit: so would something like the following be too unbalancing? Skills All players get one skill point a level for a “character flavour/hobby” skill All players get one skill point a level that may be spent on any class skill that they have fewer than 5 ranks in.
Nom 04-18-07, 10:09 AM	Generally no. Though you would need to define "flavour/hobby" skill more precisely. You might also want to limit the "bonus class skill point" to character level or 5 ranks, whichever is less.
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 12:15 PM	If players want more skill points have them... Take levels in a class that gives more skill points. Increase their intelligence to gain more skill points. Play a Human so as to get bonus skill points. Next thing you know, they'll be whining they don't have enough feats...
Throg 04-18-07, 12:25 PM	I like the idea, but I'd go with another method. Keep the current skill points at each level, INCLUDING the skill ranks cap, and cross classing. But then include along with it the Practice and Teaching. This gives players things to do durring middle of adventure downtime. Unless you're characters are always on another adventure day after day, letting them improve their characters durring that week or 2 between their next job is good. I'd limit Practice and Teaching as thus; Practice - Prereq: Must have at least 4 skill points in the skill you wish to practice; Takes 1 Week(8 hours per day practicing) per +1 in a particular skill. If this skill is cross class, you gain 1/2 rank instead. You cannot gain more skill points then the normal cap for your level. Teaching - Prereq:Must find a Teacher; 2 Weeks(8 hours per day learning) per +1 in a particular skill, but does not have to have any skill points invested yet. If this skill is cross class, you gain 1/2 rank instead. You cannot gain more skill points then the normal cap for your level. Teachers - Anyone with 5 ranks or more can teach another person in a skill. The skill check DC needed is 10+(the number of ranks the student possesses in that skill). A Teacher NPC costs 20g per 2 weeks. The reasoning behind that 20g cost for the teacher, that's more then enough for any regular person in a D&D world to survive off very comfortably. If he uses his services often, then he can get very wealthy easy. It is also an easy cost for lower level players, and at high levels it's not always possible to squeeze in 2 weeks just to learn one skill. I think this would be a little more reasonable to keep players from getting into PRC super fast, and still give them the more skill points they want. Also keeps people from paying for the teacher once then spending 4 weeks at no cost to get up to 5 quickly. Minimum investment per skill to get up to 4 is 80g and 8 weeks of time.. not something every adventurer has access to (At least between lvl 1 and 2.. Shiney new sword and armor... or train?)
WinterPsionic 04-18-07, 01:53 PM	A popular solution I've seen in use (in RL and On the boards is to compress skills). In most cases this creates some imbalance but you can adjust as needed. Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Open Lock + Disable Device = Mechanics Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics Diplomacy + Gather Information = Conversationalist Intimidate + Bluff = <Too Many Different Names> Sense Motive + Listen = Keen Ear(amongst other names) Handle Animal + Ride = Animal Lover Decipher Script + Forgery = Code Breaker There are a few otehr variations and plenty you can do on your own, if you notice though with the system above, a Rogue will almost always be maxed in nearly everything.
GinTonic 04-18-07, 06:55 PM	Another problem with the practice/training scheme is that characters that craft (magic items or otherwise) will want to spend all or at least most of their time crafting. Here's another idea. Every time a PC has a meaningful or difficult success with a skill, it's recorded. Perodically (twice per level?) the DM chooses (or randomly selects) one of the skills each PC has had a meaningful success with to boost by 1 rank.
wizarddog 04-18-07, 09:58 PM	Another option is to allow retraining. Maybe they regret putting skill points in Appraise and want to instead have it in Use magic Item. They can shuffle the points over provided they pay the cost and time. But seriously why are they complaining about skill points? Majority skills don't require ranks to use. If they wanted better spot and listen they can take the feats, increase wisdom, or multiclass to improve them. Rogues, Bards, and Rangers are classes for the skillful. If they want a skillful characetr that is what they should play. How freaking high do they want them?
Pindar 04-19-07, 11:19 AM	I think this is probably what I will do: All players can qualify for one extra skill point a level that can be used for a "knowledge/craft/profession" skill. All players can qualify for one extra skill point a level that may be spent on any class skill. To get these points you must spend a week training for each point These free points cannot take any skill over 5 ranks. The cost is of the training 50 gp a week. So to get both points each time a character levels up he can take 2 extra weeks training and 100 gp. The feedback in this thread has been very helpful.
shift244 04-20-07, 08:56 PM	When practicing a hobby, a person spends time gaining experience by doing activities related to the hobby. When enough experience is gained, that person levels up and spends a skill point from leveling up into that skill. That basically how skills are gained with some fluff in it. An adventurer busy slicing orcs and running from fireballs have less time to spend on whatever hobbies s/he might be interested in (unless they are slicing orcs and/or running from fireballs) as compared to someone leading a more peaceful lifestyle. The skill points granted to each class at each level is supposed to represent the amount of time said character chooses to spend the time in the past levels worth of xp in practicing those hobbies or goals. Ditto for any other class related gains like BAB, saves, bonus feats etc. Allowing training by paying in time spent, is akin to gaining "xp" specifically for skill points and no other area. It allows low skill point per level classes to by-pass the the level restriction by not gaining other class related benefits of high skill points per level character. If such is to be implemented, then it should only be fair if the rogue gets to train in swordplay (gain BAB), or if the mage so chooses to train in spellcasting (gain caster level) instead of skill points during those time a paladin chooses to practice making wicker baskets. Training to cast a spell make take up to 4 times longer than to gain a skill point, but it should be allowed under similar reasoning. Oh, and each additional skill rank should not take the same amount of time. As the skill ranks go higher, it become increasingly difficult to learn something new, discover new tricks etc (represented by the exponentially scaling xp in the normal leveling system). If training is considered, the time taken to gain the next skill rank should be something along the line of: Weeks Spent = Current Skill Rank x 3 weeks Just my thoughts.:)
temparus2000 04-20-07, 09:19 PM	you definately don't want to give more skill points per level. Apart from the already-mentioned "prestige class problem", they will also have early access to many epic feats (once they are epic)