Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arminel 01-19-08, 04:39 PM	The character I'm currently building is a: Kokiri (not kidding, DM-created race) Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1 Str: 12 (+1) Dex: 16 (+3) Con: 14 (+2) Int: 20 (+5) Wis: 15 (+2) Cha: 18 (+4) Thus far, here is my feat selection: (Level 1) Spellcasting Prodigy, the old one that gave you a +1 to DCs (Flaw) Shadow Weave Magic (3) (Beguiler 5) Silent Spell (6) So, here are the feats I'm looking at. -Mindsight, if the DM allows it, from Lords of Madness -Arcane Disciple, due to my high wis, though I wasn't sure which would be best. -Obtain Familiar, since it has a high enough intellect to gain a language, I could communicate via Mindbender Telepathy. -Spell Focus: Illusion or Enchantment I really have had a difficult time picking them. When I hit 9th, I'll pick up Rapid Metamagic, but there doesn't seem to be a lot to metamagic. I thought about picking up Spell Focus: Illusion or Enchantment and getting the following Greater Spell Focus or Metamagic School Focus to silence my spells for free a few times per day. For Arcane Disciple: (Slime Domain) would net me Grease, Melf's Acid Arrow, Poison, and Evard's Black Tentacles. (Spell Domain) would get me Anyspell and Greater Anyspell, which could increase my versatility. (Suffering) would get me Bane, Bestow Curse, Enervation, and Harm. (Envy) would get me Ray of Enfeeblement, Vampiric Touch, Magic Jar, Limited Wish, and Wish.
MongooseFamiliar 01-19-08, 08:45 PM	Get Heighten Spell when you can. And consider going into Shadow Adept rather than or in addition to Mindbender. The three bonus feats are very, very good for Beguilers. Beyond that, Spell Focus or anything else to raise your DCs is vita.
Cartigan 01-19-08, 09:00 PM	How much Mindbender are you taking?
JamesMaissen 01-19-08, 11:39 PM	Sculpt makes a fair choice for the 6th level feat. Especially if you went with the slime domain for level 3. Picking up a domain and a reserve feat to deal 'yay team' damage, could be an option as well. -James
MongooseFamiliar 01-20-08, 01:08 AM	I really would dodge the Arcane Disciple. If you want to do direct damage, I suggest maxing UMD and getting Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration. Or dominate an ogre. Also good. Seriously, Beguilers are about being smart and subtle. If you're going to be good at your enchantments and illusions, you need to focus on that. If you split your focus onto the direct damage, you might as well just roll a sorcerer, because otherwise you will be half-assed at both. Take a look here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=805782) There is some really good advice and some build suggestions, plus some suggestions there and in the old Beguiler's Handbook regarding tactics. Ask yourself this: Why did you choose the domains for Arcane Disciple you put up in your initial post? Do they conceptually fit with what Beguilers do? I have seen that a lot of people who post asking for advice on beguilers seem stuck on the idea that you need direct damage to be viable and contribute. The whole point of the class is the opposite of that idea. Beguilers are manipulators and tricksters. They aren't slinging fireballs, generally. (Which is not to say illusory fireballs or fireballs from that mage you charmed a while back would be out of place.) Start thinking about how to use what you have and improve THAT. Don't be a sorcerer wannabe.
Cartigan 01-20-08, 01:10 AM	I would also skip a Familiar. I fail to see the point of it.
Malicea 01-20-08, 02:58 AM	I would also skip a Familiar. I fail to see the point of it. Familiars can be fairly useful for a Beguiler, just because they gain the master's ranks in all skills. At the worst this means you might be able to get a +2 from 'aid another' in many skill checks. That said, I find that Beguilers are really tight on feat slots, and Obtain Familiar usually doesn't make the cut. Also, those starting stats are quite godlike for LA +0 (is it?) With the old (broken) Spellcasting Prodigy as well, you'd be better served going Spell Focus/GSF: Enchantment/Illusion and stacking the DCs.
Arminel 01-20-08, 03:56 AM	Yeah, the Kokiri thing is a little silly almost. +2 Int/Cha, -2 Str, and small size. Mindbender is a single level dip. As far as gaining direct damage, it was a idea that would give me other options. Since most seem to think it is a pretty bad idea, I'm going to stop following it. The domains picked were for various reasons that tend to coincide with the Wizard, which is a favorite of mine. I'm trying to branch out. Arcane Disciple is out. Obtain Familiar is out too. It was a decent idea I figured, but not worth the investment. At this rate, Spell Focus is looking like a solid choice.
Cartigan 01-20-08, 09:08 AM	Since the Beguiler focuses on Enchantments and Illusions, its a great candidate for Spell Focus feats. Unsettling Enchantment (CM) couldn't hurt after a Spell Focus (enchantment). Or Dazzling Illusion (CM) for SF(illusion). Mindsight of course if you are allowed it.
MongooseFamiliar 01-20-08, 11:23 AM	Since the Beguiler focuses on Enchantments and Illusions, its a great candidate for Spell Focus feats. Unsettling Enchantment (CM) couldn't hurt after a Spell Focus (enchantment). Or Dazzling Illusion (CM) for SF(illusion). Mindsight of course if you are allowed it. While interesting, the reserve feats only add to CL, not DC. I'd put them at lower priority then Spell Focus and some other metamagics. As you get higher, definitely take a look at Twin Spell and Residual Magic.
Cartigan 01-20-08, 11:31 AM	While interesting, the reserve feats only add to CL, not DC. I'd put them at lower priority then Spell Focus and some other metamagics. As you get higher, definitely take a look at Twin Spell and Residual Magic. Dazzling Illusion and Unsettling Enchantment arn't reserve feats. They are general, always active feats that have the spell focus (or specialist wizard) as a pre-req.
Arminel 01-20-08, 03:45 PM	Mindsight got nixed unfortunately. I was looking at Dazzling Illusion and Unsettling Enchantment. The problem is that the path of feats I'm looking at is pretty long Spell Focus: Illusion Greater Spell Focus: Illusion Metamagic School Focus: Illusion Dazzling Illusion Spell Focus: Enchantment Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Metamagic School Focus: Enchantment Unsettling Enchantment Rapid Metamagic I only get 6 of those, and Rapid Metamagic is a must-have. My DM nixed Versatile Spellcaster, which is why it isn't on the list. Of the above mentioned, Rapid Metamagic will be taken. So 5 slots, 8 choices. I suppose it is either specialize in one or diversify between the two. In addition, Heighten Spell is supposed to be a key metamagic feat, so I have that to throw in there too in addition to Quicken Spell. Since Dazzling Illusion and Unsettling Enchantment affect the target whether they save or not, I'm tempted to get it. This is going to assume that at 8th level, I'm picking Shadow Conjuration for Advanced Learning, giving me increased versatility. (3) Spell Focus: Illusion (6) Greater Spell Focus: Illusion (9) Rapid Metamagic (B10) Still Spell (12) Quicken Spell (15) Spell Focus: Enchantment (18) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Considering my DM has previously allowed an Incantrix's bonus feats to be "bonus Wizard" instead of "bonus Metamagic", perhaps I should aim for that prestige class. I have the skills, and the only feat I'd need is Iron Will. Trade one iffy feat for four good ones but I'd lose on skills :(
MongooseFamiliar 01-20-08, 04:26 PM	If your DM allows flaws, I'd say take them so you can have the extra feats. My suggestion: (3) Spell Focus: Enchantment (B5) Silent Spell (6) Heighten Spell (9) Rapid Metamagic (B10) Still Spell (12) Residual Magic (15) Spell Focus: Illusion (18) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Note that the Heightened Spell has the DC of the spell level it is heightened to.
JamesMaissen 01-21-08, 02:03 AM	Note that the Heightened Spell has the DC of the spell level it is heightened to. Yeah, but when would you need to use heighten rather than simply use a spell of the level you'd look to heighten the lower level one? That is why heighten, say a sleep to 3rd level when you could cast Deep Slumber? I think heighten is a great bard metamagic as it gives resilience to their low level save or be removed spells and lets them choose other more utility spells known. -James
MongooseFamiliar 01-21-08, 10:54 AM	Yeah, but when would you need to use heighten rather than simply use a spell of the level you'd look to heighten the lower level one? That is why heighten, say a sleep to 3rd level when you could cast Deep Slumber? I think heighten is a great bard metamagic as it gives resilience to their low level save or be removed spells and lets them choose other more utility spells known. -James Not every spell has a higher level alternative, and that higher level alternative is not always available either. Also, in the case of spells like shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, sometimes you just want that higher save and/or longer duration.
Belkar 01-21-08, 11:09 AM	There's a lot of high-level discussion here about spell mechanics and feat choices to amplify them. I'm going to make a simple suggestion that will benefit you in many ways and play off of your class abilites. Hear me out... Improved Initiative. The bread-and-butter of your class ablities revolve around casting against flat-footed opponents. Doing so will not only raise the DC of any spell you cast, but later on will even help you overcome SR. It is crucial. The problem is that the higher level you get, your tried-and-true ways of ensuring that "flat-footed" condition become harder to obtain. You get enemies with see invisibility or true sight, blindsight, tremorsense... all of that. You could always feint in combat (and the beguiler class abilites eventually lend to this), but it's a bad idea. Stay out of melee. One of the best ways to ensure your opponent is flat footed - even if you stare him in the face and smile - is by going before him on the first round of combat. The only way he can combat this is with Uncanny Dodge (a rather uncommon ability for NPCs and monsters, at least compared to the aforementioned things). I've played two beguilers in my time, and Improved Initiative is a feat that is nearly invaluable at low levels - and will carry you through the highers as well. A different train of thought than what people are thinking here... but I think you'll get quite a bit of use out of it. :)
Cartigan 01-21-08, 11:40 AM	There's a lot of high-level discussion here about spell mechanics and feat choices to amplify them. I'm going to make a simple suggestion that will benefit you in many ways and play off of your class abilites. Hear me out... Improved Initiative. The bread-and-butter of your class ablities revolve around casting against flat-footed opponents. Doing so will not only raise the DC of any spell you cast, but later on will even help you overcome SR. It is crucial. The problem is that the higher level you get, your tried-and-true ways of ensuring that "flat-footed" condition become harder to obtain. You get enemies with see invisibility or true sight, blindsight, tremorsense... all of that. You could always feint in combat (and the beguiler class abilites eventually lend to this), but it's a bad idea. Stay out of melee. Use Advanced Learning to get Distract Assailant as soon as possible?
Belkar 01-21-08, 11:42 AM	Use Advanced Learning to get Distract Assailant as soon as possible? This is an excellent suggestion!
JamesMaissen 01-21-08, 01:45 PM	Not every spell has a higher level alternative, and that higher level alternative is not always available either. Also, in the case of spells like shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, sometimes you just want that higher save and/or longer duration. I'm sorry how do you get a longer duration? Heighten is a nice feat, but here I don't think it feels like a full feat. -James
Malicea 01-21-08, 08:44 PM	I'm sorry how do you get a longer duration? Heighten is a nice feat, but here I don't think it feels like a full feat. -James I agree. I've played a Beguiler for a long time now, and I've found typically, they know and spontaneously cast so many spells that you always have a good spell to cast for every level (level 5 is a minor exception until you pick up Shadow Evocation). It also encourages a little more creativity and variety when you play. The 1 level dip to postpone Advanced Learning I have also found overrated. Your level 4 slots are among the most valuable at mid-levels, and I feel that Shadow Conjuration short-changes you a little because you lose out on the 'no SR' benefits of many conjuration spells you can mimic. You lose less, so to speak, with Shadow Evocation. Greater Mirror Image is amazing, and Mass Whelm is actually very effective as a 'damage' spell, because of its targeting. I'd instead prefer to pick up the Beguiler class features a level earlier. Still, that permanent telepathy can be quite useful (although you do get Telepathic Bond later.) Unsettling Enchantment is very good, but unfortunately it only works on opponents that your spells generally can already rape. Good if you want to specialize, but a little overkill otherwise.
MongooseFamiliar 01-21-08, 10:29 PM	I'm sorry how do you get a longer duration? Heighten is a nice feat, but here I don't think it feels like a full feat. -James Whoops. You're right, I goofed on the duration bit. It doesn't affect that, but it does affects save DCs and the ability to penetrate a Lesser or regular Globe of Invulnerability. I am unclear on how that doesn't constitute "a full feat." Take Distract Assailant. It is a nice 1st-level spell, but since it is only 1st, it is fairly easy to resist, especially as you level up. How about if you cast it as a 5th-level spell? Maybe not so easy to resist? And if it hits, then hello to the flat-footed for your next spell. As for the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, the main draw there is versatility. For the bargain price of one Advanced Learning, the beguiler gets every Conjuration (Summoning) and Conjuration (Creation) spell available. That is huge. As an added bonus, things like undead and constructs aren't immune to shadow spells, so you get another tool to use against those guys who have the potential to give you a lot of trouble, given how much of your spell list they are immune to. For the most bang for your buck, though, Malicea has a point. I've read the suggestion that Greater Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation are the ones to pick up.
Arminel 01-22-08, 04:12 AM	What would you suggest over Shadow Conjuration for a 4th level or 3rd level spell then? The Handbook for Beguiler's suggests Shadow Well for 4th and Spectral Weapon, Ray of Dizziness, and Heroism for 3rd level choices. Other than those, none seemed terribly appealing. I checked the SC, PHB, PHB2, and CM.
Kratch 01-22-08, 08:40 AM	An alternate route (not so much on the power, but possibly helpful, depending on the campaign/game style) might be the feats that give bonus skill tricks. There are some very nice skill tricks and a beguilers skills list lends to getting quite a few of them. I'd also second the improved init. I'm generally not as big a fan of the feat as many others on these boards, but it really does work for the beguiler.
Malicea 01-22-08, 03:27 PM	What would you suggest over Shadow Conjuration for a 4th level or 3rd level spell then? The Handbook for Beguiler's suggests Shadow Well for 4th and Spectral Weapon, Ray of Dizziness, and Heroism for 3rd level choices. Other than those, none seemed terribly appealing. I checked the SC, PHB, PHB2, and CM. Heroism is a decent choice. It lasts a fairly long time, especially at high levels, and gives bonuses quite relevant to your party role. Ray of Dizziness is actually quite deadly. It retains its usefulness even as a level 3 spell through all levels, because it doesn't allow a save (another strike against Heighten Spell!).
MongooseFamiliar 01-23-08, 12:50 AM	Heroism is a decent choice. It lasts a fairly long time, especially at high levels, and gives bonuses quite relevant to your party role. Ray of Dizziness is actually quite deadly. It retains its usefulness even as a level 3 spell through all levels, because it doesn't allow a save (another strike against Heighten Spell!). It amuses me that you offer these random situations where Heighten Spell is not useful as if that somehow diminishes the vast number of times where it could be useful.
Malicea 01-23-08, 04:21 AM	It amuses me that you offer these random situations where Heighten Spell is not useful as if that somehow diminishes the vast number of times where it could be useful. I'm glad I've amused you. You can amuse me by attempting to quantify the 'vast number of times' it could be useful for a Beguiler. There is an opportunity cost to using Heighten Spell. Would it be nice to Heighten Shadow Evocation to level 6 for 1 more DC? Yes, but that means 1 less Overwhelm for the day. Beguilers know a TON of spells, many of which overlap in utility and hence you can typically just use a higher level version. Charm Person DC too low? Charm Monster then. Pointing out how a 'saveless' spell reduces the utility of Heighten is certainly relevant. Apart from Ray of Dizziness, there is also the entire range of Power Word spells from which you can pick Advanced Learning from. Beguilers also have a surprising number of useful 'buff' spells, for which again, Heighten is not very useful. I'm hardly saying that Heighten is a bad feat. It's merely that Beguilers have a LOT of good choices for feats, and not many feat slots. I would consider for a level 12 or 15 feat maybe, but most likely not before picking up the spell focuses.
Arminel 01-24-08, 08:02 PM	We haven't had a game yet, but I've yet to decide on my feats. Thanks for the input thus far though.
Arminel 01-26-08, 06:01 AM	Interesting little spell I found in the Book of Exalted Deeds. What do you think for Advanced Learning? Elation For 1 round/level, your allies within 80ft of you gain +2 Str, +2 dex, and +5 ft speed. All morale bonuses too.
Malicea 01-28-08, 09:00 AM	Interesting little spell I found in the Book of Exalted Deeds. What do you think for Advanced Learning? Elation For 1 round/level, your allies within 80ft of you gain +2 Str, +2 dex, and +5 ft speed. All morale bonuses too. Interesting. Huge range, but obviously inferior to Haste as a level 3 spell. It does stack, but you'll have to decide if you'd often use your first 2 turns to cast both buffs. Good if you're in a party with many melee, or in a battlefield situation. Heroism is probably preferable for the typical adventure, since you can pre-cast it, saving a round in combat, and possibly use it across several encounters. Tip: getting Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend greatly improves Heroism for a low price!