Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ObscureInfo 11-25-07, 04:38 AM	I am creating a new fighter. (Two-handed Greatsword, Heavy-Armor type) With only 2+ Int skills (3+Int as a human), what are the best skills for my fighter??
kuonji 11-25-07, 07:05 AM	Mostly it depends on what you want to do. Gonna use a horse alot? Ride and Handle Animal might be good. Want to help offset your armor penalties or be more mobile when wearing lighter armor, try Climb, Jump, and Swim. Like bullying the other guy then Intimidate is for you. Want to be a smith or other creator of goods, then go for some Crafts. It also depends on the game to an extent. Going to be on the water quite a bit, well, Swim is probably more useful then Ride. Limited down time? Then you probably won't have the time to Craft very often. Your best bet may be to speak with your DM and the other players in your group about what might be "best" for your campaign/group.
ObscureInfo 11-25-07, 11:55 AM	How many ranks in Ride do you need if you are not going to be the knight on the steed? How many ranks in Swim if you are not going to be continually on the water? With so few skill points, there has to be some sort of breakpoint where you can say, okay, I can make those checks, moving on... I realize that with Armor Check Penalties for heavy armor, most likely I will need to max out Climb and Jump to be effective. No problems there, but what about the rest? (BTW, there will not be enough downtime to use Craft effectively to make things-besides I do not see my character that way, unless you can do it in a night at the inn or tavern and fix your weapons/armor-see below for my last question for why) As far as cross-class, which ones should I take? Listen, Spot? Diplomacy, Bluff? Are there certain cross-class skills that have easier checks to make or help a fighter out more? What about Survival? Or Heal? (BTW my character has 16 Int, so I have 3+3 or 24 ranks at first level) And here is my last question: I want my fighter to have something to do in town besides looking for an arm-wrestling match. Should I get a Perform Skill or some Cha based interaction skills or would that be a waste of time? (Average Cha, cross-class) How many ranks do you need to be effective in these? Note: I am not used to being the fighter. Usually, I play the skill-monkey or the spell-slinger and I know how to do that. Also I have played a bard and a swashbuckler a time or two. What I need is experience with economy of skill points. What do you do when you don't have much? The Fighter has the smallest number of class skills and the smallest number of skill points per level. (Unless the Sorcerer beats him, not sure) Where do you put those points?
Nightshade 11-25-07, 12:25 PM	The DC's for your skill checks will depend on your DM's game and your ranks will depend on your ability score bonuses. But there are a few hints you can get from the skill section. Handle Animal = 5 ranks to get the synergy bonus for your Ride skill. You only need more than that if you want to start walking around with a menagerie like a druid... Warhorse, fighting dog, hawk, etc. Ride - DC 20 to control mount in battle. With an average roll of 10, a good total bonus to have is +10 or 11. So, if your Dex is 14 for +2 and synergy bonus from handle animal for +2, you'll need 6 or 7 ranks. You should bring the bonus up higher eventually but that is a decent bonus. Climb - get a Climber's kit. DC 20 for typical wall in dungeon or ruin. Str: 16 gives +3. So, 5 or 6 ranks will do for the first 4 or 5 levels. Intimidate - Cha 10 so you'll need a few more ranks in this to be good. Jump - 20 ft long jump is DC 20. 5 ft High jump is also DC 20. Without synergy bonuses or kits (tumble is cross class and you can't do it in heavy armor so it would not benefit you to place ranks there), you need to maintain more ranks in jump than in the other STR oriented skills. Swim - completely campaign dependent but your heavy armor will drag you down so eventually you need to at least zero this out and then get some bonus at mid levels.
wizarddog 11-25-07, 06:06 PM	How many ranks in Ride do you need if you are not going to be the knight on the steed? (BTW my character has 16 Int, so I have 3+3 or 24 ranks at first level) Note: I am not used to being the fighter. Usually, I play the skill-monkey or the spell-slinger and I know how to do that. Also I have played a bard and a swashbuckler a time or two. What I need is experience with economy of skill points. What do you do when you don't have much? The Fighter has the smallest number of class skills and the smallest number of skill points per level. (Unless the Sorcerer beats him, not sure) Where do you put those points? With that INT have you considered being a Ranger or Barbarian? You'd get more bang for your buck on skills and can still wield the great sword. Just a sugesstion. ;)
False-paradox-Truth 11-25-07, 08:01 PM	Welcome to the fabulous world of frontline warfare! You got 24 skill points to burn? Well you got 7 Class Skills. Don’t take Craft, and grab everything else. That simple.
NASCAR_1080i 11-26-07, 03:09 AM	@false-paradox ... such is not the logic of the meat shield ... at-least 4 pts should go into languages and another four crossed into diplomacy... because who really wants to make sense these days
sapient 11-26-07, 08:44 AM	@false-paradox ... such is not the logic of the meat shield ... at-least 4 pts should go into languages and another four crossed into diplomacy... because who really wants to make sense these days That depends on the campaign (DM) and the group. It would be true in the group I play, and your group - but it might not be true in the group the OP plays. Whether intimidate or diplomacy is best, depends very much on style of play. With intimidate you may have the chance to be in the first line, since it's a class skill, if you max out on it. With diplomacy you stand no chance usually, since others who have it on their class skill list or who get more skill points will beat you in ranks. But if it is closer to your style of play, putting some points into it (and bluff, for possible syngery) still makes sense for aiding the partys frontline diplomat/s. A good strategy is to check what the the other players of the group will play, if your DM will allow you this knowledge, and try to find a way to complement them. Even skills as climb and jump are not as useful if you have a good rogue that climbs first and lower a knotted rope or ropeladder to the rest of the party. Also, as a fighter you get tons of feats. Your fighter feats usually give you all the fighting edge that you need to develop your particular style, so you can use some of the general feats that provide bonuses to skill shecks to strengthen your otherwise poor performance in key skills. Find a good strategy for utilizing general feats in this way, and with a few levels you can still get by on decent chances on the skills you select. Maybe your party can divide the different knowledge-skills between you, so at least one will always stand a decent chance of finding useful information about a situation or a monster. (If the feat Education is available to you, as for example from some of the campaign settings, it can make all knowledge skills class skills to you. Check that.) And if your gaming group do some exceptions to RAW, other options may of course become fruitful: If your DM force you to take possible wear on weapons and armor into account (there are no core rules for it though) then invest in Craft (armorsmithing) and be the guy that mends rifts and straigthens buckles in the others armor. In my group, we have "amended" the tumble skill so it's possible to use with armor, but the AC pentaly is double (like for swim) unless you're a Dwarf. That makes it usefull to a heavy fighter, for "breaking the line" and going directly for the leader of a group of foes or closing with monsters with reach for example. But unless you have a similar system, tumble is nigh useless to you.
narack 11-26-07, 12:31 PM	Intimidate can be used using your STR score also. Result of intimidation miss with STR or CHA is different.
april151978 11-26-07, 12:46 PM	While I don't want to change the focus of this thread to a fighter fix debate, here is one thing I did to premote Intelligence as less of a dump stat for fighters... Feats such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization work similarly to Spell Mastery for wizards; 2+ Intelligence modifier weapons of thier choice, as long as they are proficient in the sellected weapon... If you have a fighter with an Intelligence of say 14 or 15, and he takes Weapon Focus: Fighter, he gets +1 to hit with 3 weapons, not just one... Same goes for Weapon Specialization: Fighter, as the prerequisite is Weapon Focus: Fighter... The reason for this is so that a change of a fighters Intelligence score is not going to give them a bigger bonus after they have taken Weapon Focus: Fighter... I have toyed with the idea of allowing this for the greater versions of those feats, but I have yet to run some test on how powerful that would be... At least this gives fighters a bit better combat edge... As for skills, talk to the DM... They should be able to tell you what would be most appropriate for that campaign...
Kratch 11-26-07, 12:58 PM	With that many skill points, I'd likely recommend intimidate and cross class gather info and sense motive. These allow you to play a strong-arm investigator role during social encounters, and they don't really need to be maxed (sense motive won't be high enough, even if maxed as CC, to match those with bluff as a skill, but will work well enough, even not maxed, against things that don't have the skill). Handle animal may be a solid addition as well, allowing you to train and handle various pets to help fill other roles (like tracking dogs or night watch animal). What skills are best really depends on the type of campaign and the character you want to play.
Staver 11-26-07, 01:30 PM	Despite the fact that they are cross-class, I always find Spot and Listen to be helpful. Fighters frequently pull guard duty or watch the party at night while the spell casters rest to regain their spells, and how can you stand watch if you can't see or hear anything? Also helps you not get caught flat-footed at times. -HTH, Staver
RobbyPants 11-26-07, 02:06 PM	Planning on using the Leap Attack feat? You'll need at least 8 ranks in Jump to qualify. Because you need to make a 10 foot jump at the end of your charge, more ranks will help. If you get a running start, you can be pretty certain to make the DC 10 Jump check. If you can't run, the DC jumps up to 20, and then you'll want more ranks in it.
Dog_O_War 11-26-07, 02:57 PM	Balance, 5 ranks. So helpful, even if you do wear full-plate. Also, I agree with putting ranks into spot and listen; at low-level the skill-gulf isn't so great that you cannot make those checks, and at higher level you have the advantage of being able to hear and spot stuff (like oozes) without needing the 20. Ride is a good one to have a few points in; just 5 ranks allows you to not worry about fighting from horse-back. Really, it depends on the type of game you play in. If your DM likes a good story, then diplomacy is where it's at. If your primary occupation is killing and looting, then the fighter-three are for you (jump, climb, swim). Just don't forget balance. As in the skill, 'cause there'll be atleast ONE situation somewhere when you wished you had ranks in it. And it is usually the situation that gets you killed.
Staver 11-26-07, 03:19 PM	Balance, 5 ranks. So helpful, even if you do wear full-plate. Just don't forget balance. As in the skill, 'cause there'll be at least ONE situation somewhere when you wished you had ranks in it. And it is usually the situation that gets you killed. Well put, well put! A balance check was almost the end of my favorite barbarian character. Ranks in it are a good idea. -Staver EDIT: I guess the same could be said for Swim checks. May never need the ranks, but if you do, you're sunk without them!
Rulebook 11-26-07, 04:12 PM	Craft: Beer. you're a fighter, skills are for rogues.
Orenmir 11-26-07, 04:49 PM	you're a fighter, skills are for rogues. I think there's much validity in that statement. So, don't worry about any cross-class skill ranks except for Tumble -- it can be used in a pinch to escape a bad situation in combat, and you must have a rank to use it. A Fighter fights -- so, what skills can you proactively use for combat? Take a look at the ToB, and look up "Duel of Wills." After you do, you will decide to max out your Intimidate ranks and realize it is the best proactive combat skill on the list.
Tony Vargas 11-26-07, 05:04 PM	What I need is experience with economy of skill points. What do you do when you don't have much? The Fighter has the smallest number of class skills and the smallest number of skill points per level. (Unless the Sorcerer beats him, not sure) Where do you put those points?Many classes are 2+INT/level (even the Wiz, though her high INT makes up for it). The fighter's in-class list is pretty limitted. Intimidate is worthy of being maxxed, in the sense that it's DCs are level-based - when Diplomacy fails, you can try it 'your way.' There are a few feats which make it more useful (the standard use of intimidate in combat is virtually worthless), too, or so I've heard. Ride is also worth maxxing out if you plan on taking Mounted Combat (which needs maxxed ride to stay useful). Handle Animal is good for a synergy bonus to ride, and, if taken high enough, can be helpful in training a tougher mount than the usual horse. Cross-class, Sense Motive is a skill that normally has to be maxxed out to be really useful, (opposing Bluff), but, it stacks with your BAB for resisting the Feint manuever, so a few ranks can be worth it for that purpose. 5 ranks will also give you a synergy bonus with diplomacy. When you don't have so many ranks to work with, though, focusing on a skill that needs to maxxed to be useful (the way you're likely used to with Rogue skills like Hide, Disable Device, etc) isn't that great. Craft, though I understand it may not be useful in your campaign, does at least have fairly static DCs. About the most difficult thing you're likely to do is craft masterwork, and it only takes a total +10 roll to do so while taking 10. Trained-only cross-class skills are sometimes worth the single rank to allow a roll. It's not crazy-useful, in itself, but it's a shot, and it gives you about a 50/50 chance to give someone else a +2 via 'aid another.' Knowledges can fall into this category - and help you break the 'stupid fighter' stereotype, too. In that sense, any skill amenable to 'Aid Another' has a useful static DC of 10. If you can hit 10 fairly easily (you don't get to take 10), you can boost the 'expert's roll. Spot, Listen, Search and Sense Motive are all useful skills to have to make you a little more aware of what's going on. Though they have to be maxxed out to stand against level-apropriate challeges like seeing through a magical disguise or spotting a hidden assassin, they can be of some use at lower ranks, too. Climb, Jump, and Swim are good to take up to the level that they cancel out your Armor Check penalty, or make common dungeoneering tasks (climbing ropes, for instance) automatic. If you really want to be stingy with ranks, you can 'plan ahead' for when you have mithral armor or whatever. As you're a heavy armor type, these would be a good idea. As your STR also adds to these skills, it shouldn't take many ranks to get by. Another skill that takes an armor check penalty, but might be useful to cross-class, anyway, is Balance. If you have 5 ranks in balance, you retain your dex bonus to AC while balancing. While you won't be walking tightropes, many balance checks are DC 10, including checks to run /or charge/ on slightly difficult surfaces. Out-of-combat 'around town' skills usually are typically interaction skills, like Diplomacy or Gather Information, both of which can have fairly tame DCs, or Sense Motive which can be generally useful. A little Knowledge Nobility or Knowledge Local can make you less a fish out of water in respective interactions (and 5 ranks of either is good for a synergy bonus, too).
tyrecian 11-26-07, 06:15 PM	handle animal has been used by optimizers to acquire various "pets" that in essence are animal companions. Get em armorred and they can "fight" by doing tricks that you are able to perform with them. Although the DC's are pretty darn high, so its a later effect i would think.
Staver 11-27-07, 09:07 AM	IMO, what it comes down to is this: there are some skills you can simply let other party members handle, and others you need to be able to handle yourself. Focus on the ones you can't delegate. Someone else can do the Diplomacy thing for the party, someone else can Gather Information and then share it among your party, but you have to make a Swim check yourself, or a Balance, or a Tumble. Spot and Listen are a little grayer, since if another party member becomes aware of something, they can let the rest of the party know on their initiative. -Staver :)
ObscureInfo 11-27-07, 11:46 PM	Question: Do we still use Handle Animal for driving a team of horses pulling a wagon or cart? Or is that profession: driver or something like that? Thanks, Staver, for the awesome prespective. "Focus on those skill checks that you will have to make yourself and leave the rest to others." I think I will do that. But I still want something to do in town, so I might focus on a Profession, Craft, or Perform skill that I can just do for fun. (not to make money, just have a good time) Or a Knowledge skill that gives my character some unexpected depth. Just something that you wouldn't expect, like being a good cook or a gardener or an avid reader of pulp novels.
Staver 11-28-07, 01:18 PM	Thanks, Staver, for the awesome prespective. "Focus on those skill checks that you will have to make yourself and leave the rest to others." You are quite welcome :) But I still want something to do in town, so I might focus on a Profession, Craft, or Perform skill that I can just do for fun. (not to make money, just have a good time) Or a Knowledge skill that gives my character some unexpected depth. Just something that you wouldn't expect, like being a good cook or a gardener or an avid reader of pulp novels. Ah yes, the "skills as flavor". Hard to do when you get so few skill points. My most successful attempt at this was a full-Orc barbarian chef. He had max ranks in Craft: Cooking and I think Profession: Chef as well. He'd kill Elves and then cook 'em up, and I'd roll a Craft check to see how the meal came out. Funny thing with this char, I never rolled anything other than 19 or 20 on those checks. It was freaky. He was really, really good at cookin' up Elf! Anyhow, I think it was in Complete Warrior where they had Perform: Weapon Drill. Fancy, flashy spinning of your weapon and the like, kind of like a kung fu movie. You can earn money doing 4-hour performances. Nice thing about this usage, you get to add 1/2 your BAB, and you get bonuses from certain feats as well. My current barbarian has like +47 to his Perform: Weapon Drill right now. His goal is to hit a 75 some day and have a deity ask him to come perform (Epic usage of Perform feat). Good luck! -Staver :D