Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaxxer 03-04-08, 09:04 PM	What are the best three fighter feats to start out with?
Fireclave 03-04-08, 09:59 PM	You ask a loaded question. There are many options for a fighter to take, and which feats would be best will depend entirely on what you what your fighter to do and how exactly you want to do that. Narrow down your question if you want some more helpful responses.
mplindustries 03-04-08, 11:18 PM	Swarm of Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#swarmOfArrows) would be totally awesome to start out with. Oh, and Combat Archery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#combatArchery), too, just for some archer synergy. I don't know about a third, but I've heard good things about Toughness.
Jaxgaret 03-04-08, 11:41 PM	Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge.
Fireclave 03-04-08, 11:49 PM	Swarm of Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#swarmOfArrows) would be totally awesome to start out with. Oh, and Combat Archery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#combatArchery), too, just for some archer synergy. I don't know about a third, but I've heard good things about Toughness. First I was like :bored:, but then I :heehee'd
TravisOfTheCosmose 03-05-08, 12:30 AM	Power Attack, Weapon Supremacy...and...something else?
ciaran 03-05-08, 01:01 AM	Skill Focus Profession? Just to throw a little stank on it?
Gentlemanic 03-05-08, 03:48 AM	Yeah! Power attack is (almost) always a good option. Especially when fighting with 2-handed weapons. For the rest you should look at the personality of your character. If you haven't thought about it much I'd consider not putting all your eggs in the same basket. Get a two handed weapon (and a bow), power attack, point blank shot and rapid shot. That way you have some versatilty, other fighting characters often lack this. Perhaps switch out rapid shot for a more flavorable feat (and take rapid at three). The +2/+2 skill feats are pretty swell, since you get plenty of feats anyway, they can give some flavor to you r man.
gixanthrax 03-05-08, 09:45 AM	for all charismatic evil fighters out there: unholy grace and unholy toughness. and improved toughness.
toucanbuzz 03-05-08, 10:01 AM	What about the finesse fighter? Combat expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm. Oh, and Improved Initiative, in any situation, is always a great feat. As it is said, "he who hacks first, hacks last."
Orenmir 03-05-08, 10:24 AM	Asking what feats are the best is such a broad question. I can help you by answering what feats are generally most useful for most Fighter builds at first level. Power Attack & Improved Initiative. PA is not only a feat that a Fighter will use in almost every battle, it's a prereq for other good feats and PrCs. II is also something almost every D&D character can benefit from all the time. For the 3rd feat, you should really pick something that is going to customize your Fighter. A Fighter's feat choice is what defines him as a class. Are you going to be a damage-dealing weapon master? --Go for the Weapon Supremacy feat tree. Are you going to be a tripper or a disarmer? --Need to start out with Combat Expertise. Are you going to be a battlefield controller? --Might need XWP and Combat Reflexes. An Archer? --Tons of archery feats to choose. A Grappler? --Gotta start with Improved Grapple. A Charger? --Work your way toward Shock Trooper. These are pretty basic suggestions. So, let us know more about your Fighter's style! Then, we can suggest the "3 best feats for your Fighter."
Dog_O_War 03-05-08, 11:50 AM	Improved initiative, Quickdraw, Blooded (from Faerun campaign setting). Reasoning; +6 initiative (before dex), +2 spot, always ready with the weapon required (longspear versus charging opponents, or for charging, Longbow for archery, shield and sword for close combat where a high AC is the trump card). Best feats I ever took at first. (I will add that going first when the enemy is within charge distance gets rid of the pesky AoO when you decide to sunder/bull-rush/disarm/trip without the feat(s). These are all options that people never want to use without the feat).
no-sides-sameeth 03-05-08, 12:16 PM	It really does depend on build, but for a standard fighter, Improved Initiative and Power Attack are almost always good choices. That being said, I am not a huge fan of the Power Attacking Fighter. To me, that ids the realm of the Barbarian. If I took a lot of Fighter levels, I would be looking to do things that other classes don't Admittedly, that is hard; there isn't much that a Fighter can do that another class cannot. However, a Spiked Chain Fighter, while a bit trite, is one such idea. You could, however, start such a character witha level of Swashbuckler. In fact, I am currently working towards building a Daring Warroir build from CS. I, however, started as a Swashbuckler for the skill points. A 1st level Swashbuckler is a 1st level Fighter with better skill points and the bonus feat preselected. Honestly, Swashbuckler 1 with Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise and the bonus Weapon Finesse is, I think, superior to a Fighter 1 if you are going for a Finesse style Fighter or chain Fighter. For a Power Attacking Fighter I would probably go Barbarian 1 with Improved Initiative and Power Attack and then take my 2 levels of Fighter. I guess i just don't see any compelling reason to take Fighter at level 1.
JamesMaissen 03-05-08, 01:51 PM	What are the best three fighter feats to start out with? Ones that he won't regret having taken when he's 9th level (or higher). Don't just look at the first level unless that's all you're going to be playing.. plan out the character. That said, I've had fun starting up a gish build with Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm using a Ranseur. -James
baronvonboxy 03-05-08, 02:08 PM	Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus or Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave
TravisOfTheCosmose 03-05-08, 03:55 PM	unholy grace and unholy toughnessHmmm...not familiar with those names, as far as feats go...
McPoyo 03-05-08, 04:21 PM	Follow the example of the Tarrasque. I mean the guy's meaty as all hell and pretty decently strong, and all he has for feats are "Toughness". Can't go wrong mimicking the Tarrasque ;)
Jaxxer 03-05-08, 04:27 PM	I apologize for putting such a broad question as a post. Let me be more specific on what I was thinking about doing with a new character. I wanted to make a character that was a good fighter and a good spellcaster. I have always taken the extremes but now i would kinda like to merge them together. Let me give you an idea of the progression of my character: Fighter1/Focused Specialist(transmutation)3/Master Specialist(transmutation)3/ Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion. I am thinking it could be a pretty strong character. So, I go back to my original question. What would be the best three feats to start out with for this type of progression?
Zootsuit 03-05-08, 06:09 PM	The answer to this question really depends on how you want to play your fighter. You can of course build it however you'd like, but if you jut want to be a combat machine or plan on changing class later, you might think about: If you're going to play a shooter: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (most likely Longbow) If you're going two-weapon: Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (most likely short sword). If you're going to swing with a two-handed weapon: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (most likely Great Sword or Bastard Sword) Keep in mind that Quick Draw, Weapon Focus and Improved Initiative are all very useful and versatile no matter how you want to play you character. Any fighter can also benefit from Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes. (Edit, after reading OP's follow-up post): You might also benefit from Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, so that you can wield it in one hand without penalty (to my knowledge, you still endure spell failure penalties when wielding a two-handed weapon, even as a Spellsword). It also depends on how often you anticipate having to rely on sword versus spell. Even then, the above builds ought to help.
StruckingFuggle 03-05-08, 06:23 PM	If you're taking an EWP, Spiked Chain would be SO much better than the Bastard Sword. For a Gish? Hm. Power Attack if you've got the Strength, Weapon Finesse if you don't ... Improved Initiative is good, yes. Later, when you can cast it, you'll want Arcane Strike. Most of your AC will come from spells, so you don't need a shield (you've got the Shield Spell, especially once you get AbC levels), so you'll want a two-handed weapon ... TWF might be nice, but it requires a lot of dex (bah) and a lot of feats. It's too bad you have to take Combat Casting instead of Skill Focus (Concentration)..
no-sides-sameeth 03-06-08, 09:59 AM	Normally I owuld agree that ExWP (Spike Chain) is superior to ExWP (Bastard Sword), but for a gish I have to disagree. His build won't have enough feats for a tripping/disarming/finesse build (hes going Master Specialist) and I like the versatility of the Bastard Sword for one or two-handed use. It allows you to keep one hand free for spellcasting or wand wielding. I would go with ExWP (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative and then one of three, depending on your style of play: Quick Draw , Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) or Power Attack. Power Attack would be choice number 3. You won't have the BAB to fully realize the benefit of the feat. This is one of the few points I think CM gets right in its How to Play a Wizard as a Warrior chapter. Caveat. if you plan to exploit the infiite loop of Arcane Duelist--> Power Attack, then it is a good feat. Weapon Focus is usually a suboptimal feat, especially since you don't look like you are going to take enough Fighter levels for Weapon Spec. Still, +1 to hit is +1 to hit and you BAB is likely to suck, like +9 over 13 levels. Quick Draw. My personal fav of the three. You may start a lot of battles empty handed. I know when I play a gish, my spells are my first line of offense, then I draw if threatened. This means a feat for free draw is a good investment for me. it also lets me draw/swap out wands as needed. I actually like Swashbuckler instead of Fighter, as I mentioned above. However, this will not work if you want the level of Spellsword due to Armor Proficiency restrictions.
StruckingFuggle 03-06-08, 10:13 AM	Normally I owuld agree that ExWP (Spike Chain) is superior to ExWP (Bastard Sword), but for a gish I have to disagree. His build won't have enough feats for a tripping/disarming/finesse build (hes going Master Specialist) and I like the versatility of the Bastard Sword for one or two-handed use. It allows you to keep one hand free for spellcasting or wand wielding. Sure, you can't attack with a Spiked Chain one-handed, but you could let go of it with one hand. And he doesn't need to trip, etc - the bigger point is for finessable (possibly) (which semi-excludes tripping as it is) reach, with no donut hole, which scales with his probably knowing Enlarge Person. Bastard Sword totally isn't worth it, the feat would be better spent elsewhere, and just using a one-handed weapon like a Scimitar. Power Attack would be choice number 3. You won't have the BAB to fully realize the benefit of the feat. This is one of the few points I think CM gets right in its How to Play a Wizard as a Warrior chapter. Caveat. if you plan to exploit the infiite loop of Arcane Duelist--> Power Attack, then it is a good feat. Also, Wraithstrike and Arcane Strike make it so that, even without a full BAB (ideally +16 by 20th), you've still got plenty and will land them even if you PA for "lots". :)
skywyze 03-06-08, 10:22 AM	The feat from Tome of Battle that gives you a stance, since it also permanently gives you rogueish class skills - something you'll appreciate when your skills are limited to pretty much only the Knowledge skills. Things like adding a flat +2d6 damage to all your attacks for the rest of your life also isn't bad. Other than that, Leaping Charge and Power Attack are great combos for a gish - it doubles the benefit you get from power attack every time you charge. So let's say you're using a 2handed weapon, that means you now apply 4 extra damage for every point of accuracy you sacrifice. And it only gets worse as your levels increase. Beyond that, I'd aim for Combat Brute and Shock Trooper to further improve your ability to power attack. I don't remember which one it is that completely negates any penalties from power attacking, but it's in there. It's called Heedless Charge and the reason I say it negates the penalty (rather than shifting it to AC) is because there won't be anyone left to test your AC when you're done. XD Leaping Charge is from Complete Adventurer. Combat Brute and Shock Trooper are from Complete Warrior.
mplindustries 03-06-08, 10:40 AM	Normally I owuld agree that ExWP (Spike Chain) is superior to ExWP (Bastard Sword), but for a gish I have to disagree. His build won't have enough feats for a tripping/disarming/finesse build (hes going Master Specialist) and I like the versatility of the Bastard Sword for one or two-handed use. It allows you to keep one hand free for spellcasting or wand wielding. The Longsword or Battle Axe or just about any other one-handed weapon could also be used one or two handed. In fact, by using a bastard sword over a longsword, you get all of +1 average damage for one feat. Its really only worth it if you've exhausted your other feat options that provide damage. Additionally, for the purposes of having a hand free for spellcasting or wand wielding, you can just take one hand off of a two handed weapon to make somatic gestures or hold a wand in. I would go with ExWP (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative and then one of three, depending on your style of play: Quick Draw , Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) or Power Attack. I think EWP is a waste of a feat for +1 damage. So many people suggest improved initiative, but I can't imagine why. I've never found initiative to matter at all unless you have no other schtick for getting sneak attack or you're trying to Iaijitsu. Still, its hard to argue with everyone. Power Attack would be choice number 3. You won't have the BAB to fully realize the benefit of the feat. This is one of the few points I think CM gets right in its How to Play a Wizard as a Warrior chapter. Caveat. if you plan to exploit the infiite loop of Arcane Duelist--> Power Attack, then it is a good feat. If you plan on using a two-handed weapon, you will want power attack. With all the buffs you are going to have, you'll have no problems hitting so your BAB (which should only be 3 behind) isn't going to be needed to hit. Arcane Duelist 3 is awesome (though hardly an infinite loop), but it really works much better in a build that just splashes arcane casting. A true gish should have near full casting (maybe missing 2-3 levels at worst). Weapon Focus is usually a suboptimal feat, especially since you don't look like you are going to take enough Fighter levels for Weapon Spec. Still, +1 to hit is +1 to hit and you BAB is likely to suck, like +9 over 13 levels. I sort of agree. Weapon focus is always an "eh" feat, but is somewhat solid. I'd usually prefer +1 to hit over +1 damage. Quick Draw. My personal fav of the three. You may start a lot of battles empty handed. I know when I play a gish, my spells are my first line of offense, then I draw if threatened. This means a feat for free draw is a good investment for me. it also lets me draw/swap out wands as needed. Quickdraw is another one of those feats I never saw a use for, but yet everyone claims its amazingly useful. Again, your mileage may vary, but I don't think its very good at all. As long as you move once you can draw your weapon anyway. Since using a wand is a standard action, I don't know why you wouldn't just move to draw it before using it. Its not like Quickdraw lets you put something away any faster, so the battlefield will still be littered with your wands and weapons at the end. I think later on, Mobile Spellcasting (Complete Adventurer) is a better bet. Then you can cast and move as one standard action, idealy meaning you can draw a weapon as part of casting a spell. Your DM may disagree, though, since its not technically a "move action." I actually like Swashbuckler instead of Fighter, as I mentioned above. However, this will not work if you want the level of Spellsword due to Armor Proficiency restrictions. I agree. Swashbuckler 3 would add great intelligence synergy to your build, and with a Spiked Chain (which is finesseable) you could still get the benefits of high strength. I think that might be pushing it on the lost caster levels though. As for spellsword, I hate spellsword. Its stupid. Its only good because the first level is "free" for fighter based gishes. I don't think you should ever go out of your way for it, though. With the build you currently have, I guess I'd go for Weapon Focus(eh), Power Attack, and Combat Casting (just to get it out of the way for Abjurant Champion). Don't waste your higher level feats on Combat Casting.
LSMFT 03-06-08, 11:48 AM	Power Attack is not something a fighter will use every combat. He will (should) only be using it when the AC he is up against is low enough that he will reliably hit, even with his iterative attacks, with a penalty or when the AC is high enough that he will hit with the same frequency regardless of the penalty, i.e. on a natural 20. It is worth it as a prereq for other feats. In your case, you have to consider if you are ever going to want those other feats. If you've already taken a level of fighter, there is no cost real cost in taking a level of Spellsword. Just the ability to cast the spells you'd already cast and ranks in a skill you'd probably max anyway. You get the casting and to ignore 10% ASF, which is the ASF of a mithral chain shirt. Keep a high Dex, and you'll benefit more from light armor than with heavy. Mithral Buckler has no ASF. Weapon Finesse: good if your Str is lower than your Dex. And, it probably should be. You will be devoting most resources into pumping up Int, and then Dex will boost melee to-hit in addition to AC, reflex, and Initiative. In addition, a strategy that increases Dex will benefit those with Combat Reflexes. Something like Arcane Strike, adds to-hit and damage to all attacks made that round, so, the more attacks you have, the better. Get a reach weapon. EWP bastard sword: why? EWP spiked chain: much better. With reach and finessibility, you can use it well. The more people you can hit in a single round, the better spells like Wraithstrike and feats like Arcane Strike are. Your AC is going to be good, probably, but you still will have fewer hp than most melee guys. Reach is your friend. Reach and Finesse? That's pretty much just spiked chains.
Ecalsneerg 03-06-08, 12:28 PM	Hmmm...not familiar with those names, as far as feats go... It's cos they're not, that's why :D
no-sides-sameeth 03-06-08, 02:26 PM	My problem with Spiked Chain is that I would rather have the +1 to damage than the reach with a gish. At low levels, perhaps the reach could be useful, and Spiked Chain is a good reach weapon. The thing with Weapon Finessed Spiked Chain is, it costs a feat for Weapon Finesse and ExWP. The build will be tight on feats as is. I find Improved Initiative all kinds of useful for casters. Going first is important, and in a gish like this, since I would put Str (after Primary Casting Stat and Con) ahead of Dex, Initiative will be relatively low to begin with. The +4 will help. If you are building a finesse type gish, ignore the above. If you always carry your weapon in your hand, a free draw is useless. if your DM is lax on weapon changing and always assumes you are ready, a free draw is useless. if you play in urban areas where carring an unsheathed weapon gets you arrested, a free draw is useful. If your DM likes to suprise you, or if your Scout never put ranks in Spot and Listen, a free draw is useful.
mplindustries 03-06-08, 06:01 PM	Other than that, Leaping Charge and Power Attack are great combos for a gish - it doubles the benefit you get from power attack every time you charge. So let's say you're using a 2handed weapon, that means you now apply 4 extra damage for every point of accuracy you sacrifice. And it only gets worse as your levels increase. This is wrong. Like countless people before, you are doubling a doubling. Using a two-handed weapon "doubles" the effect of power attack, and Leap Attack adds +100%. Thus, just as with critical hits, double a double becomes x3, not x4. (i.e +200%). I don't know why, but this is a super common mistake. As for the rest of the thread: 1) EWP: Anything is probably not worth it for a gish. Maybe Poleaxe if anything, but I'd lean towards just using a greatsword/greataxe or a glaive with armor spikes. Threatening adjacent just isn't that important thanks to size increases. 2) Power attack is always worth it for a gish, because unlike a regular fighter, you will have dozens of awesome buffs that make hitting a non-issue. The follow-up feats, however, are not generally worth it. You're better off with buffing reserve feats or dimensional jaunt or something. 3) Intelligence is not the primary stat for a gish. Strength is. Gishes don't cast spells with saves if they can help it, and you get a very small int to spell slot ratio. Melee is really what they are there for (or I guess the rare archer gish). All your spells should be buffs and/or utility (Dispel for example), with maybe a few aggressive spells for emergencies or for Reserve Feats. Now, all that said, I personally hate wizards. I think Sorcerer is the gish way to go. Specifically, my favorite gish build is a Monk/(Battle) Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion. With Ascetic Mage. If you use the decisive strike alternate feature from PHB2 and various reserve feats or buffs that only boost one attack per round, you can hit very hard and have a monstrous AC (good saves too if you dip Paladin).
Jaxgaret 03-06-08, 07:14 PM	This is wrong. Like countless people before, you are doubling a doubling. Using a two-handed weapon "doubles" the effect of power attack, and Leap Attack adds +100%. Thus, just as with critical hits, double a double becomes x3, not x4. (i.e +200%). I don't know why, but this is a super common mistake. It's because +100%, while certainly having the same effect as a doubling, is obviously not a doubling - or else the feat would just say x2 or doubled. Thus by RAW it is not affected by the "x2 * x2 = x3" rule of D&D. However, it is a very common house rule to simply adjudicate +100% as x2.
mplindustries 03-07-08, 05:03 AM	It's because +100%, while certainly having the same effect as a doubling, is obviously not a doubling - or else the feat would just say x2 or doubled. Thus by RAW it is not affected by the "x2 * x2 = x3" rule of D&D. However, it is a very common house rule to simply adjudicate +100% as x2. +100% actually literally is doubling. In basic math, writing say, 5 x 2 is shorthand. 5 x 2 = 5 + 5 = 5 +100%(5) Additionally, the reason stacking multipliers works the way it does in D&D is because x2 really means +100%. Lets pretend that someone set against a charge with a spear, then got a critical hit on the roll. If D&D intended x2 not to mean +100%, then you'd do: (X)(2)(3) = 6X However, we know that this is not how it works, because multipliers add. Thus, we get: X + X + 2X = 4X Which is identical to: 1X + 1X + 2X = 100% of X + 100% of X + 200% of X = 400% X So, no, you are wrong. In RAW, it is a 3 to 1 ratio on a leap attack with a two-handed weapon. Sorry.
CapnCJ 03-07-08, 06:34 AM	No doubt everyone will call me stupid for it, but: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus. Three simple PHB feats that are good for your standard fighter. We had a fighter in our group once who went the other way. Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Buckler Defense, and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. Eventually ended up with a pair of Thinblades and Improved Crit, he was pretty vicious. (I apologise if any of these are wrong or anything, no books on me)
Fenrir_Greyback 03-07-08, 08:16 AM	mortalbane, power attack, cleave
Jaxgaret 03-07-08, 09:51 AM	Deleted for stupidity.
Jaxgaret 03-07-08, 09:59 AM	So, no, you are wrong. In RAW, it is a 3 to 1 ratio on a leap attack with a two-handed weapon. Sorry. It appears that you are correct after all. I just checked the SRD: Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3). When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice). The little bit in the end about adding 100% twice indicates that D&D does consider x2 and +100% as mathematically equivalent. You have to remember that I was attempting a RAW interpretation, which has nothing to do with how maths actually work. It only depends on the rules of D&D. Which agree with you, by the by.
skywyze 03-07-08, 11:05 AM	The reason why I said it doubles your power attack damage is because the feat does NOT say it doubles your damage. It says it doubles the benefit you receive for power attacking. Which at least to me suggests that if you're using a two-handed weapon where the base power attack damage ratio is 2-for-1, and you double the benefit you receive, that you end up with 4-for-1. If power attack said it doubled the damage bonus for using a 2-hander, that'd be one thing, but it doesn't. It simply says it gives 2 points of damage (base) for each point of accuracy lost with a 2-hander. What it really boils down to is this: Is the difference between using a 1-handed and 2-handed weapon for power attacking considered a mathematical doubling? Or it it considered a different number? Both would be correct, but which one does the book use? But it's a moot point anyway, since anyone built around the idea of power attacking will also have frenzied berserker levels and possibly Favored Power Attack to add another 2-3 multipliers (which DO just add one to the multiplier each, as usual, since it's now been doubled once). So for these people, damage is never an issue and should probably never be rolled anyway, once you get into the higher levels. It's like saying that there's no such thing as a doubling anywhere in D&D - sure there is. They just don't multiply eachother.
mplindustries 03-07-08, 01:21 PM	It appears that you are correct after all. I just checked the SRD: The little bit in the end about adding 100% twice indicates that D&D does consider x2 and +100% as mathematically equivalent. You have to remember that I was attempting a RAW interpretation, which has nothing to do with how maths actually work. It only depends on the rules of D&D. Which agree with you, by the by. I didn't mean to be so harsh. I was racing to beat the server reset, so it seemed a little snippier. Its a pretty common error to be honest. The reason why I said it doubles your power attack damage is because the feat does NOT say it doubles your damage. It says it doubles the benefit you receive for power attacking. Which at least to me suggests that if you're using a two-handed weapon where the base power attack damage ratio is 2-for-1, and you double the benefit you receive, that you end up with 4-for-1. If power attack said it doubled the damage bonus for using a 2-hander, that'd be one thing, but it doesn't. It simply says it gives 2 points of damage (base) for each point of accuracy lost with a 2-hander. What it really boils down to is this: Is the difference between using a 1-handed and 2-handed weapon for power attacking considered a mathematical doubling? Or it it considered a different number? Both would be correct, but which one does the book use? Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)from the SRD: "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls." Twice = Double = x2 = +100% In other words, the base damage is still 1:1, but with a two-hander, you "twice" it (2:1). All feats or features that increase the ratio do so based off the standard 1:1 ratio. If one feat doubles it, another adds +100%, and a third gives x3, those are still all based on the 1:1. Using all these non-existant abilities, you'd get a 5:1 ratio with a one-hander or 6:1 with a two-hander.
StruckingFuggle 03-07-08, 01:42 PM	Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus. Three simple PHB feats that are good for your standard fighter. Cleave's pretty over-rated ... situationally used, and even then only situationally useful. Unless you could somehow cleave with a Scorching Ray or something (you can't :p) ... maaaaybe if you're a fighter, but if you're a Gish, it's little returns, comparative to what else you can get for a feat investment.
Jaxgaret 03-08-08, 01:41 AM	Isn't Cleave pretty darned useful for a Pounce uber-charger with a Reach weapon?
Jaxgaret 03-08-08, 01:46 AM	I didn't mean to be so harsh. I was racing to beat the server reset, so it seemed a little snippier. Its a pretty common error to be honest. It's alright. I've rushed posts that came out a bit unintentionally harsh myself. Just for the record, I rule in my campaigns that +100% is equivalent to x2. I simply thought that it was a houserule to do so.
StruckingFuggle 03-08-08, 01:50 AM	Well, there's one situational use where even Greatcleave might be useful. :o (if you were enlarged) (especially if you had some way to hit multiple foes with one attack? is there a way that works with cleaves? ... does Warhulk work like that?)
mplindustries 03-08-08, 02:25 AM	... does Warhulk work like that?) Yes (Edit: Unless you meant "can he cleave multiple squares?" A warhulk can't hit more than one enemy on a cleave, but it can hit three squares as a standard action eventually). So does Warmind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) (and you even get to hit two people when you cleave). An expanded level 5 warmind using either Mithril Tornado or Adamantine Hurricane would be a completely ridiculous threat to crowds of enemies (And yes, it does work, as those manuevers specifically state that you make melee attacks, and war mind works on all melee attacks regardless of source...it seems even AoOs). And wow, as a side note: a warmind hits all enemies in two adjacent squares. That would devastate swarm fighters or even just groups of small enemies in close proximity.
StruckingFuggle 03-08-08, 02:37 AM	Yes (Edit: Unless you meant "can he cleave multiple squares?" A warhulk can't hit more than one enemy on a cleave, but it can hit three squares as a standard action eventually). That is what I meant, yeah. Hitting multiple squares with an attack, to multicleave.
pigknight 03-08-08, 02:50 AM	Powe attack and extra smite, oh wait that's a two-hander pally. I like power attack, cleave and improved intiative.
CapnCJ 03-08-08, 04:51 AM	I didn't pick cleave for it's usefulness, I picked it for it's "That's some nice cleaveage there" comments. :P
Sunic_Flames 03-08-08, 08:31 AM	Why is init important? Because win init = win. Do you really want to lose init?
Jaxgaret 03-08-08, 02:19 PM	Why is init important? Because win init = win. Do you really want to lose init? No, I do not. Oh wait, was that a rhetorical question? ;)
mplindustries 03-08-08, 06:26 PM	Why is init important? Because win init = win. Do you really want to lose init? Personally, I don't care one way or the other. If I can't survive one round of enemy action, I have bigger problems than my initiative score. Besides, +4 is almost nothing when you're talking about 20 points of variance.
WolfHati 03-08-08, 09:15 PM	Well unless you're completely immune to damage, one less turn having to deal with surviving is fewer resources used and a greater chance of surviving. And 4 points is going from 50% chance of going second to 30%, worst case which is a pretty big deal. On the higher and lower ends you make either a tiny chance of going first into a significant one or a significant chance of going last into a tiny one. Edit: Also, if it makes your initiative modifier higher than your opponents if it wouldn't have been otherwise, it is essentially a 5 point bonus.
Sunic_Flames 03-09-08, 01:49 PM	Given the fact that unless you're optimizing your AC, any big enemy makes PA bait of you, save or die spells exist, and a number of other means exist that do in fact end combat in a single round (or at the very least, take something from full to dead in a single round), it is very, very important. And it is very difficult to get your init modifier over 20 without it. Once you hit the low 20s and start automatically going first vs some enemies combined with the above... you're golden.
mvincent 03-11-08, 05:09 PM	What are the best three fighter feats to start out with?1) Combat reflexes, EWP: spiked chain, and combat expertise (to eventually get improved trip), or 2) Power attack, cleave, improved initiative, or 3) Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge (as mentioned by Jaxgaret)
no-sides-sameeth 03-11-08, 05:37 PM	Two quick questions 1) Is PA really the best choice for a First level Feat? Since you can only subtract/add up to your BAB, you are talking about, at most, 1 point. I don't doubt it is a good feat, but I would pick it up as a Second Level Feat, or as My Third Level feat. I usually find that at First Level, I have more trouble hitting than I do killing things when I do hit. Is this just a quirk in the games I play? 2) If you have a relatively low BAB, is PA worth it?
mvincent 03-11-08, 05:42 PM	If you have a relatively low BAB, is PA worth it?No... but it's a prerequisite for cleave (which pretty much every THF'er gets... and optimal fighters are typically THF'ers). And at 1st level, the opposition tends to have few HP, which makes cleave so fun.
Essex 03-11-08, 07:59 PM	I apologize for putting such a broad question as a post. Let me be more specific on what I was thinking about doing with a new character. I wanted to make a character that was a good fighter and a good spellcaster. I have always taken the extremes but now i would kinda like to merge them together. Let me give you an idea of the progression of my character: Fighter1/Focused Specialist(transmutation)3/Master Specialist(transmutation)3/ Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion. I am thinking it could be a pretty strong character. So, I go back to my original question. What would be the best three feats to start out with for this type of progression? If you're going for a fighter/wizard combo, I'd avoid feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise. They suck up points of BAB that you will be unable to spare without problems. Since you're likely going to be relatively lightly armored (and therefore likely more dexterous than average) and have limited hp compared to most fighters, I'd go with ranged combat options. Better yet, many of those options are also good with ray spells. I'd suggest that you take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Coordinated Shot (from Heroes of Battle). The last feat lets you shoot past allies engaging in melee without your enemies gaining soft cover (+4 to AC). Also, note that there is a lot of outrage over the glaring problem with the Abjurant Champion. The prestige class is basically good mostly for pumping up your shield spell. See the errata thread on the Future Releases page (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=722319).
Cartigan 03-11-08, 08:11 PM	2) If you have a relatively low BAB, is PA worth it? Not without Shock Trooper, but then you are going to hope you have good armor. But what class without a good BAB is in the front trying to beat stuff to death with brute strength?
mvincent 03-11-08, 08:48 PM	If you're going for a fighter/wizard combo, I'd avoid feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise. Agreed. Improved Initiative though is one of the better feats, and is never a waste.
mplindustries 03-11-08, 11:16 PM	If you're going for a fighter/wizard combo, I'd avoid feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise. They suck up points of BAB that you will be unable to spare without problems. Since you're likely going to be relatively lightly armored (and therefore likely more dexterous than average) and have limited hp compared to most fighters, I'd go with ranged combat options. Better yet, many of those options are also good with ray spells. I'd suggest that you take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Coordinated Shot (from Heroes of Battle). The last feat lets you shoot past allies engaging in melee without your enemies gaining soft cover (+4 to AC). Also, note that there is a lot of outrage over the glaring problem with the Abjurant Champion. The prestige class is basically good mostly for pumping up your shield spell. See the errata thread on the Future Releases page (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=722319). A good Gish build should have at least 16 BAB, and usually upwards of 17 or 18. If he uses 6 levels of a caster BAB for a base, he's down 3, which means 17. I think thats plenty to hit, especially considering how many to hit bonuses he'll have from buffs. If you think its hard to get full BAB caster classes, I think you're not looking hard enough. Obviously Abjurant Champion is awesome. Sure, it only boosts Shield's AC, but it does allow you to cast it as a swift action. And at 5th, swift action Dispels are amazing. Plus, think of all the otherwise "eh" abjuration buffs that are 1 round/level. With a swift action those become useful. However, there's also stuff like Knight Phantom, the first level of Dragonslayer and Spellsword, and if you are willing to give up a single caster level (which sadly makes two overall), even the core Eldritch Knight is acceptable. If you can give up more than one caster level, Swiftblade is amazing, too. Oh, and if he uses the Domain wizard variant from Complete Champion, he can get Divine Power anyway, which makes up for any BAB deficiencies. I'd say just use your three feats on prereqs for the classes you're prestiging to later.
Sunic_Flames 03-12-08, 10:51 AM	Actually, power attack is a good feat. Just not at low levels. Buffs will more than likely make your to hit higher than a martial guy. And then there's Wraithstrike, which is pretty much PA for full for 1 round and still easily hit.
LSMFT 03-12-08, 12:14 PM	Yeah, I tend to not think Power Attack is worth it for a gish unless it is to qualify for something else. But, Sunic makes a very good point: with something like Wraithstrike, it really can be valuable.
Sunic_Flames 03-12-08, 01:19 PM	Well chances are, you're gonna have extra to hit regardless, why not make it into something useful? It's practically a no brainer, unless you either can't use it (and are therefore leaning on +xd6 bonus damage to do the same thing), or have a lot of damage from your swing (which also likely means +xd6 bonus damage). Wraithstrike (ideally Persisted) is practically a staple.
mvincent 03-12-08, 01:30 PM	For a Gish build, a good combo to work towards is: Spirited charge + true strike + power attack
JamesMaissen 03-12-08, 01:44 PM	Two quick questions 1) Is PA really the best choice for a First level Feat? 2) If you have a relatively low BAB, is PA worth it? 1> It depends what plans you have for the rest of your feats. Feats have prereqs that you might not meet at 1st level but still want to fit into your build. With the fighter level and human bonus feat you are getting almost half of the feats that you will see in your first 8 levels at the start. You need to plan ahead (but then again you always do). 2> Depends on what your chances are to hit the monster. You are limited by BAB in the damage you can trade in.. but it's the hitroll that matters most here. Likely you are buying power attack for later, as well as to get into other feats later (cleave, divine might, shocktrooper, etc) that if you delayed power attack until a directly optimal time for it you would not be able to fit into your build in any decent amount of time. Plan out characters... just looking at one level at a time is a big big mistake, James