Bucklers & 2-Handed Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bucklers & 2-Handed Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
1 ton ghost
09-23-07, 02:42 AM i know someone said something on this, but after further evaluation in the PHB and Complete Warrior, i'm not 100% here.

essentially, can you use a buckler in 2-handed weapon combat?

armor descriptor in PHB p.124, "...you can use your shield arm to wield a weapon (wheather off-hand TWF or assisinting 2-handed weapon) but you take a -1 on attack rolls...this penalty stacks w/ those that may apply for fighting w/ your off hand and for fighting w/ 2 weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round."

my understanding is/was thus, you can (for 2-handed weaponry), but of course there's the penalty of -1 which Ftr's loathe understandably. i've even seen illustrations of 2-handers w/ bucklers strapped (redgar i think) and so on, but this may be artistic license and nothing more, nothing mechanical.

flavor wise, i understood for TWF, i mean you are going on the offense heavilly (Full-Attack) to which you sacrifice AC in the karmic bloodshed kind of thinking. w/ 2-handed, you may get extra dmg., but you're more likely to hit w/ TWF.

the descriptor is not entirely clear, well, clear for TWF anyway. wtf does this mean specifically? i think they're stressing TWF and not 2-handed, especially given the follow up feat in CompWar which is explicitly TWF. that is, you can't have your cake and eat it too, but w/ Improved Buckler Defense you can for TWF anyway. i couldn't find any literature on a feat allowing Buckler AC when 2-handing, hence i was thinking you could do it, just at -1 as is.

are you construed as having a weapon in your offhand if you're just 2-handing? or is it only implied in TWF?
BrutishCelt
09-23-07, 03:21 AM So far as i know, yep, you just take the -1 penalty when you have a buckler strapped while using a 2-hander. I don't think that it would be unreasonable to create a feat that eliminates the buckler penalty, but I don't offhand know if one already exists.
1 ton ghost
09-23-07, 03:24 AM to be brief, do you retain the buckler's shield bonus when using 2-handed weaponry or do you lose it in the same fashion as TWF?

i know you take the -1 regardless for weight and all, but...
dman11235
09-23-07, 04:11 AM Yes, you do not get the bonus. And as far as I know, there's no way to overcome that.
EjoThims
09-23-07, 04:14 AM The feat that lets you retain your buckler defense when TWF should also work when THF, unless it specifically states that you must be using two weapons (which is different than using a weapon in each hand).
dman11235
09-23-07, 04:40 AM It does.
Archangel_Tyrael
09-23-07, 01:29 PM Yes, you do not get the bonus. And as far as I know, there's no way to overcome that.

Improved Buckler Defense, Complete Warrior. FANTASTIC feat.
dman11235
09-23-07, 02:36 PM It only works with TWF, not THF.
ZiggZagg
09-23-07, 02:41 PM Then just create a new feat or allow it to work for 2 Handers. It is not that big of a deal. The game is all about options. Use them. Have fun. Laugh at others that think you are "breaking the game" for duplicating a feat and modifying it slightly:D
Archangel_Tyrael
09-23-07, 04:34 PM It only works with TWF, not THF.

I disagree. But since the feat isn't Open Gaming Content, we can't actually argue about it because it's against CoC. :/

I can cite my sources, though.

Source 1 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=928313&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)
Source 2 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=926416&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)
Source 3 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=895449&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)
Source 4 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=895268&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)
Source 5 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=889992&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)
Source 6 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873874&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)
Source 7 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=885418&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)
The most important source, cause PI said this. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=880491&highlight=improved+buckler+defense)

Does Improved Buckler Defense grant it's ability when using a two-handed weapon?Yes.
jaelis
09-23-07, 04:58 PM The question of whether IBD works with a 2H weapon has been the subject of contentious debate. The most official answer I know, however, is that it does not, per the Sage Advice in Dragon 357.
dman11235
09-23-07, 06:07 PM It says "off-hand weapon". I think it's pretty clear.
EjoThims
09-23-07, 07:27 PM It does not say 'off-hand' weapon.

It says 'when attacking with a weapon in your off-hand.'

The Sage ruling holds though.
StevenO
09-23-07, 08:04 PM I'm in the group that says that IBD works when wielding a weapon in the "off" hand, even if it is only wielding it with the help of the primary hand otherwise known as THF.

Note that Improved Buckler Defense will let you keep the Shield Bonus to AC when using that hand but Two Weapon Defense also provides a Shield Bonus so the two will not stack. Generally it is better to suck the minor attack penalty and use onr feat for IBD and then power up your buckler than it is to invest featS in the Two Weapon Defense tree.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1 ton ghost 09-23-07, 02:42 AM	i know someone said something on this, but after further evaluation in the PHB and Complete Warrior, i'm not 100% here. essentially, can you use a buckler in 2-handed weapon combat? armor descriptor in PHB p.124, "...you can use your shield arm to wield a weapon (wheather off-hand TWF or assisinting 2-handed weapon) but you take a -1 on attack rolls...this penalty stacks w/ those that may apply for fighting w/ your off hand and for fighting w/ 2 weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round." my understanding is/was thus, you can (for 2-handed weaponry), but of course there's the penalty of -1 which Ftr's loathe understandably. i've even seen illustrations of 2-handers w/ bucklers strapped (redgar i think) and so on, but this may be artistic license and nothing more, nothing mechanical. flavor wise, i understood for TWF, i mean you are going on the offense heavilly (Full-Attack) to which you sacrifice AC in the karmic bloodshed kind of thinking. w/ 2-handed, you may get extra dmg., but you're more likely to hit w/ TWF. the descriptor is not entirely clear, well, clear for TWF anyway. wtf does this mean specifically? i think they're stressing TWF and not 2-handed, especially given the follow up feat in CompWar which is explicitly TWF. that is, you can't have your cake and eat it too, but w/ Improved Buckler Defense you can for TWF anyway. i couldn't find any literature on a feat allowing Buckler AC when 2-handing, hence i was thinking you could do it, just at -1 as is. are you construed as having a weapon in your offhand if you're just 2-handing? or is it only implied in TWF?
BrutishCelt 09-23-07, 03:21 AM	So far as i know, yep, you just take the -1 penalty when you have a buckler strapped while using a 2-hander. I don't think that it would be unreasonable to create a feat that eliminates the buckler penalty, but I don't offhand know if one already exists.
1 ton ghost 09-23-07, 03:24 AM	to be brief, do you retain the buckler's shield bonus when using 2-handed weaponry or do you lose it in the same fashion as TWF? i know you take the -1 regardless for weight and all, but...
dman11235 09-23-07, 04:11 AM	Yes, you do not get the bonus. And as far as I know, there's no way to overcome that.
EjoThims 09-23-07, 04:14 AM	The feat that lets you retain your buckler defense when TWF should also work when THF, unless it specifically states that you must be using two weapons (which is different than using a weapon in each hand).
dman11235 09-23-07, 04:40 AM	It does.
Archangel_Tyrael 09-23-07, 01:29 PM	Yes, you do not get the bonus. And as far as I know, there's no way to overcome that. Improved Buckler Defense, Complete Warrior. FANTASTIC feat.
dman11235 09-23-07, 02:36 PM	It only works with TWF, not THF.
ZiggZagg 09-23-07, 02:41 PM	Then just create a new feat or allow it to work for 2 Handers. It is not that big of a deal. The game is all about options. Use them. Have fun. Laugh at others that think you are "breaking the game" for duplicating a feat and modifying it slightly:D
Archangel_Tyrael 09-23-07, 04:34 PM	It only works with TWF, not THF. I disagree. But since the feat isn't Open Gaming Content, we can't actually argue about it because it's against CoC. :/ I can cite my sources, though. Source 1 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=928313&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) Source 2 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=926416&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) Source 3 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=895449&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) Source 4 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=895268&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) Source 5 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=889992&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) Source 6 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873874&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) Source 7 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=885418&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) The most important source, cause PI said this. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=880491&highlight=improved+buckler+defense) Does Improved Buckler Defense grant it's ability when using a two-handed weapon?Yes.
jaelis 09-23-07, 04:58 PM	The question of whether IBD works with a 2H weapon has been the subject of contentious debate. The most official answer I know, however, is that it does not, per the Sage Advice in Dragon 357.
dman11235 09-23-07, 06:07 PM	It says "off-hand weapon". I think it's pretty clear.
EjoThims 09-23-07, 07:27 PM	It does not say 'off-hand' weapon. It says 'when attacking with a weapon in your off-hand.' The Sage ruling holds though.
StevenO 09-23-07, 08:04 PM	I'm in the group that says that IBD works when wielding a weapon in the "off" hand, even if it is only wielding it with the help of the primary hand otherwise known as THF. Note that Improved Buckler Defense will let you keep the Shield Bonus to AC when using that hand but Two Weapon Defense also provides a Shield Bonus so the two will not stack. Generally it is better to suck the minor attack penalty and use onr feat for IBD and then power up your buckler than it is to invest featS in the Two Weapon Defense tree.