Buying Weapon Proficiencies [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buying Weapon Proficiencies [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kn1ves
10-02-07, 02:56 AM Is it balanced to be able to buy training in weapons to gain the WP: Whatever feat? Have any of you done this before?
Kouk
10-02-07, 03:52 AM Is it balanced to be able to buy training in weapons to gain the WP: Whatever feat? Have any of you done this before?

Yeah... I think I did that a bunch of times back in 2nd edition...

But I think you are asking about paying someone (an NPC) to train you in the use of a weapon? It won't do much except lessen the benefits the martial characters that start with proficiencies, because then everyone can just pay to learn the "best" weapons.

So, if you want to lessen slightly classes that start with weapon proficiencies, and races that also have their own special weapon proficiencies by reducing their abilities to a matter of cash, then go ahead. It really won't impact the gameplay that much because most people only use one or two types of weapons in their entire careers.

Otherwise, you already can 'train' weapon proficiency with the Weapon Proficiency feat. I would suggest a houserule to allow all Simple Weapons to be "purchasable" for a single feat, though almost every class starts with proficiency with most of them.
AtsuiShoto
10-02-07, 11:41 AM I'm guessing the motivation for this question is to get what you want for your character, even though you don't have the feat slot open for it. I'd have to agree, too, that a feat is a hefty price to pay sometimes for something as simple as eliminating a -4 non-proficiency penalty. I like for my feats to DO something, not just add or subtract numbers from things I already made sure my character can do.

However, being "proficient" with a weapon isn't something a character should be able to do quickly and easily. Perhaps a certain duration of dedicated martial training, combined with an appropriate fee, would be an acceptable cost. During that time a wizard could be crafting items to make himself richer and/or more powerful, a bard could be creating new contacts to gain more local influence and more obscure sources of information, a cleric could be building up a following of like-minded disciples of his god, etc.

The weapon training is an opportunity cost, then, which makes it potentially abusable in some campaigns: if the DM ignores downtime, normally not attaching mechanical gains to it, then weapon training would be an exception to the usual, so it would be an advantage over those who do not train. I wouldn't recommend it, then.
Puca
10-02-07, 12:00 PM Taking the feat or a class that grants proficiency assumes (retroactively) that you got training. It wasnt like *ping* "Ooh! I can use a long sword!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)

So, what you are really doing is asking if feats (the benefits of a feat) can be acquired with money.

No. No this is a bad idea.
There are items out there, such as the Skillful enhancement form CA, Bracers of Archery, that can do very close to what you want. That is a better way to go than what you are looking to do.
Kouk
10-02-07, 02:50 PM I feel compelled to mention though, that in the Arms and Equipment Guide (I believe) there is a weapon enchantment that allows you to wield the weapon as if you were proficient and with a Cleric's BAB value (if I recall correctly this is a single enchantment, but it may be two separate ones). It was something like a +2 or +3 bonus I think.
Puca
10-02-07, 03:12 PM That is, I think, the Skillful enhancement. Now in Complete Arcane.
Kouk
10-03-07, 03:17 AM That is, I think, the Skillful enhancement. Now in Complete Arcane.

Ah, you're right. I guess I forgot they threefivified it.

It turns out the Complete Arcane enchantment Skillful effectively grants you proficiency and grants you a Cleric's BAB for a +2 bonus.

The older Arms and Equipment Guide enchantment 'Proficient' only eliminates the nonproficiency penalty, also for a +2 bonus (so it is weaker). With the AaEG version, you have to determine whether it is worth it to trade +2 damage for a +2 chance to hit (if you just make the weapon have a +2 enhancement bonus, you will have a total -2 penalty if you are nonproficient (cancels half the penalty) but it will also deal 2 points more damage.
DM Zoc
10-03-07, 04:05 AM The feat represents your ability to learn, while hiring an NPC represents a method for you to learn.

You should have to pay someone to train you for the Weapon Proficiency feat, unless you can find someone willing to do it for free. Training for feats, and even new levels, has always been an optional rule in the DMG (which most people ignore, for convenience).
Kouk
10-03-07, 07:19 AM The feat represents your ability to learn, while hiring an NPC represents a method for you to learn.

You should have to pay someone to train you for the Weapon Proficiency feat, unless you can find someone willing to do it for free. Training for feats, and even new levels, has always been an optional rule in the DMG (which most people ignore, for convenience).

Never heard of "self-taught"? :D
ToastedAmphibian
10-03-07, 05:37 PM Ah, you're right. I guess I forgot they threefivified it.

It turns out the Complete Arcane enchantment Skillful effectively grants you proficiency and grants you a Cleric's BAB for a +2 bonus.

The older Arms and Equipment Guide enchantment 'Proficient' only eliminates the nonproficiency penalty, also for a +2 bonus (so it is weaker). With the AaEG version, you have to determine whether it is worth it to trade +2 damage for a +2 chance to hit (if you just make the weapon have a +2 enhancement bonus, you will have a total -2 penalty if you are nonproficient (cancels half the penalty) but it will also deal 2 points more damage.

?? So i guess every war-hulk character in existence has one of these weapons right? (10 lvls of a 0 BAB class suddenly become 10 lvls of a 3/4 BAB class)
DM Zoc
10-03-07, 07:42 PM ?? So i guess every war-hulk character in existence has one of these weapons right? (10 lvls of a 0 BAB class suddenly become 10 lvls of a 3/4 BAB class)

Only the smart ones. I think their major class feature prohibits them from being smart enough to seek one of these.

And even if they did get their hands on one, it isn't all that great. The character probably went into the class from a full-BAB base class, so the 3/4 progression only kicks in after level 4 in the prestige class (level 15 is the first point where the 3/4 progression exceeds +10); at that point, it's still paying a +2 equivalent bonus price for a mere +1 BAB. By level 20, that +2 equivalent turns into a +5 bonus to BAB, which is not always worth it depending on what other weapon properties you may want. Granted, it is good, but not stupendous.
Nezkrul
10-04-07, 03:01 PM nothing keeps them from seeking good equipment.

besides, I'd rather play a goliath barbarian with the mountain rage class feature, in order to qualify for the war hulk. then I'm only stupid WHILE raging :)
Dog_O_War
10-04-07, 03:54 PM As simple as this topic seems, it is infact a very hard subject to deal with. Paying to learn a weapon proficiency alone sounds more than reasonable, and within the game's balance (trading overall wealth for a proficiency is probably ok). But you'll soon find yourself in the territory of "well why can't I train a skill or two up for gold?" Which soon becomes "well, if I give up some exp AND some gold, then why can't I gain a feat, or class ability not of my make?"
The class system was not designed for this. It can be applied, but with great difficulty. You have to be able to draw the line between what makes a class a class, and what can be bought.

I would say no to buying WP's with gold (and even exp tagged along with it) as this is a slope too slippery to travel.
Besides, you then have to limit the powergamer that opts for this, with no good reason to do so.

I hope what I've written is not too confusing; I have a tendancy to make posts that're hard to navigate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kn1ves 10-02-07, 02:56 AM	Is it balanced to be able to buy training in weapons to gain the WP: Whatever feat? Have any of you done this before?
Kouk 10-02-07, 03:52 AM	Is it balanced to be able to buy training in weapons to gain the WP: Whatever feat? Have any of you done this before? Yeah... I think I did that a bunch of times back in 2nd edition... But I think you are asking about paying someone (an NPC) to train you in the use of a weapon? It won't do much except lessen the benefits the martial characters that start with proficiencies, because then everyone can just pay to learn the "best" weapons. So, if you want to lessen slightly classes that start with weapon proficiencies, and races that also have their own special weapon proficiencies by reducing their abilities to a matter of cash, then go ahead. It really won't impact the gameplay that much because most people only use one or two types of weapons in their entire careers. Otherwise, you already can 'train' weapon proficiency with the Weapon Proficiency feat. I would suggest a houserule to allow all Simple Weapons to be "purchasable" for a single feat, though almost every class starts with proficiency with most of them.
AtsuiShoto 10-02-07, 11:41 AM	I'm guessing the motivation for this question is to get what you want for your character, even though you don't have the feat slot open for it. I'd have to agree, too, that a feat is a hefty price to pay sometimes for something as simple as eliminating a -4 non-proficiency penalty. I like for my feats to DO something, not just add or subtract numbers from things I already made sure my character can do. However, being "proficient" with a weapon isn't something a character should be able to do quickly and easily. Perhaps a certain duration of dedicated martial training, combined with an appropriate fee, would be an acceptable cost. During that time a wizard could be crafting items to make himself richer and/or more powerful, a bard could be creating new contacts to gain more local influence and more obscure sources of information, a cleric could be building up a following of like-minded disciples of his god, etc. The weapon training is an opportunity cost, then, which makes it potentially abusable in some campaigns: if the DM ignores downtime, normally not attaching mechanical gains to it, then weapon training would be an exception to the usual, so it would be an advantage over those who do not train. I wouldn't recommend it, then.
Puca 10-02-07, 12:00 PM	Taking the feat or a class that grants proficiency assumes (retroactively) that you got training. It wasnt like ping "Ooh! I can use a long sword!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) So, what you are really doing is asking if feats (the benefits of a feat) can be acquired with money. No. No this is a bad idea. There are items out there, such as the Skillful enhancement form CA, Bracers of Archery, that can do very close to what you want. That is a better way to go than what you are looking to do.
Kouk 10-02-07, 02:50 PM	I feel compelled to mention though, that in the Arms and Equipment Guide (I believe) there is a weapon enchantment that allows you to wield the weapon as if you were proficient and with a Cleric's BAB value (if I recall correctly this is a single enchantment, but it may be two separate ones). It was something like a +2 or +3 bonus I think.
Puca 10-02-07, 03:12 PM	That is, I think, the Skillful enhancement. Now in Complete Arcane.
Kouk 10-03-07, 03:17 AM	That is, I think, the Skillful enhancement. Now in Complete Arcane. Ah, you're right. I guess I forgot they threefivified it. It turns out the Complete Arcane enchantment Skillful effectively grants you proficiency and grants you a Cleric's BAB for a +2 bonus. The older Arms and Equipment Guide enchantment 'Proficient' only eliminates the nonproficiency penalty, also for a +2 bonus (so it is weaker). With the AaEG version, you have to determine whether it is worth it to trade +2 damage for a +2 chance to hit (if you just make the weapon have a +2 enhancement bonus, you will have a total -2 penalty if you are nonproficient (cancels half the penalty) but it will also deal 2 points more damage.
DM Zoc 10-03-07, 04:05 AM	The feat represents your ability to learn, while hiring an NPC represents a method for you to learn. You should have to pay someone to train you for the Weapon Proficiency feat, unless you can find someone willing to do it for free. Training for feats, and even new levels, has always been an optional rule in the DMG (which most people ignore, for convenience).
Kouk 10-03-07, 07:19 AM	The feat represents your ability to learn, while hiring an NPC represents a method for you to learn. You should have to pay someone to train you for the Weapon Proficiency feat, unless you can find someone willing to do it for free. Training for feats, and even new levels, has always been an optional rule in the DMG (which most people ignore, for convenience). Never heard of "self-taught"? :D
ToastedAmphibian 10-03-07, 05:37 PM	Ah, you're right. I guess I forgot they threefivified it. It turns out the Complete Arcane enchantment Skillful effectively grants you proficiency and grants you a Cleric's BAB for a +2 bonus. The older Arms and Equipment Guide enchantment 'Proficient' only eliminates the nonproficiency penalty, also for a +2 bonus (so it is weaker). With the AaEG version, you have to determine whether it is worth it to trade +2 damage for a +2 chance to hit (if you just make the weapon have a +2 enhancement bonus, you will have a total -2 penalty if you are nonproficient (cancels half the penalty) but it will also deal 2 points more damage. ?? So i guess every war-hulk character in existence has one of these weapons right? (10 lvls of a 0 BAB class suddenly become 10 lvls of a 3/4 BAB class)
DM Zoc 10-03-07, 07:42 PM	?? So i guess every war-hulk character in existence has one of these weapons right? (10 lvls of a 0 BAB class suddenly become 10 lvls of a 3/4 BAB class) Only the smart ones. I think their major class feature prohibits them from being smart enough to seek one of these. And even if they did get their hands on one, it isn't all that great. The character probably went into the class from a full-BAB base class, so the 3/4 progression only kicks in after level 4 in the prestige class (level 15 is the first point where the 3/4 progression exceeds +10); at that point, it's still paying a +2 equivalent bonus price for a mere +1 BAB. By level 20, that +2 equivalent turns into a +5 bonus to BAB, which is not always worth it depending on what other weapon properties you may want. Granted, it is good, but not stupendous.
Nezkrul 10-04-07, 03:01 PM	nothing keeps them from seeking good equipment. besides, I'd rather play a goliath barbarian with the mountain rage class feature, in order to qualify for the war hulk. then I'm only stupid WHILE raging :)
Dog_O_War 10-04-07, 03:54 PM	As simple as this topic seems, it is infact a very hard subject to deal with. Paying to learn a weapon proficiency alone sounds more than reasonable, and within the game's balance (trading overall wealth for a proficiency is probably ok). But you'll soon find yourself in the territory of "well why can't I train a skill or two up for gold?" Which soon becomes "well, if I give up some exp AND some gold, then why can't I gain a feat, or class ability not of my make?" The class system was not designed for this. It can be applied, but with great difficulty. You have to be able to draw the line between what makes a class a class, and what can be bought. I would say no to buying WP's with gold (and even exp tagged along with it) as this is a slope too slippery to travel. Besides, you then have to limit the powergamer that opts for this, with no good reason to do so. I hope what I've written is not too confusing; I have a tendancy to make posts that're hard to navigate.