Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Windspear 06-27-07, 09:24 AM	Called Shot Prerequisite: DEX 15/Combat Expertise Normal: You can aim your attack (melee or ranged) to a specific area of the body with a -5 penalty to the attack roll. Benefit: The -5 penalty is reduced to -2. Special: A fighter can select Called Shot as a bonus feat. Improved Called Shot Perequisite: Called Shot, DEX 17 Benefit: The original -5 penalty (reduced to -2 by Called Shot) is reduced to 0. Special: A fighter can select Improved Called Shot as a bonus feat. So, what do you think?
Dalthbar 06-27-07, 09:30 AM	When you say "Normal: You can aim your attack (melee or ranged) to a specific area of the body with a -5 penalty to the attack roll." - what's the source of this? I don't think it's anywhere in the PHB or DMG. ----- In 3.x, there are no called shots. They're abusive and they were omitted for a reason. The d20 system just isn't conducive to body-specific damage and the way you can stack bonuses makes it horribly broken for called shots to exist. Many people will say that things like Power Attack are an equivalent of called shots - which I largely agree with. All you have to do is use your imagination - which is a bit of a requirement for the game anyhow. ----- Btw, those feats are so ready to be abused that I can't imagine any DM actually allowing them. Every attack would be "called shot to the eyes", "called shot to the throat", etc., etc.
unundindur 06-27-07, 09:30 AM	As long as there is no benefit to it I guess its fine... Are there some houserules that we should be aware of here?
Windspear 06-27-07, 10:08 AM	I allow my players to specifically aim an attack at a -5 penalty (which is very usefull, especially for quick silent kills). For instance- attacking the kneecap makes you move 5ft per turn, as a regular move action. Attacking the neck kills instantly, so I give that a -7.
jaelis 06-27-07, 10:10 AM	Attacking the neck kills instantly, so I give that a -7. Do your NPCs get to do this to your players? You must go through a lot of character sheets.
RobbyPants 06-27-07, 10:18 AM	I allow my players to specifically aim an attack at a -5 penalty (which is very usefull, especially for quick silent kills). For instance- attacking the kneecap makes you move 5ft per turn, as a regular move action. Attacking the neck kills instantly, so I give that a -7. That's a bit much. Remember the whole point of the HP system. It's to specifically make injuries abstract. A high level PC should be good at dodging potentially lethal attacks like this. Also, if with Improved Called Shot, there is no penalty, do you mean that you can make neck attacks as opposed to reagular attacks? There's no point to even rolling damage? Now, if you and your players are cool with a really gritty "realistic" system, then cool. Just expect a lot of PC deaths.
Dalthbar 06-27-07, 10:21 AM	Two words: Quickened Truestrike. That's all you need for an instant kill for humaniod characters.
tarkin 06-27-07, 10:29 AM	Point 1. Yes, there are called shots in D20. Point 2. There is NO set penalty of -5, or any penalty to hit. To do that kind is just plain stupid. Have you not heard of True Strike? Your proposed house rules basically are giving mages (or anyone else with True Strike) the ability to do tons of things for the mere cost of a 1st level feat. Get real. Point 3. Your feats do not make any sense for ANY of the called shot rules I know. You seem to be treating some really bad house rules as if they are core Point 4. I am 99% certain you have no idea what the called shot rules are. Here are a short list of some of them: Sneak Attack Anything related to Sneak Attack, such as Hamstring (feat that lets you change Sneak attack to a shot to the ankle that impairs movement.) Death attack from prestige class (and similar things) Power attack. This is pretty much the ONLY one that involves a penalty to hit. Your feat does not make any sense for it. Ranger favored enemey stuff Criticals Monk Stun attack Disarm attack action Trip attack action Sunder attack action Rogue Crippling Strike Please note the total absence of crappy, 2nd edition foolishness that grants huge bonuses for tiny little penalties to hit. True Strike alone makes it obvious that those ideas just don't work. (Note, they never worked even back in 2nd edition when there was no true strike, but people were not smart enough to figure it out).
Windspear 06-27-07, 10:32 AM	Two words: Quickened Truestrike. What on earth is quickened truestrike? Also, if with Improved Called Shot, there is no penalty, do you mean that you can make neck attacks as opposed to reagular attacks? There's no point to even rolling damage? Good point. I'll take away the auto-kill thing and instead give bonus to dmg on a succesfull strike to the neck and even with ICS leave the penalty at 4. Thanks for the feedback.
Dalthbar 06-27-07, 10:37 AM	What on earth is quickened truestrike? Metamagic feat Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) + the 1st level spell Truestrike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) = instant death. These are core feats and spells right from the PHB. That means any spell caster that can cast 5th level spells can one-shot virtually anything in one round. For reference, a 1st level spellcaster can one-shot the same level of anything if they spend two rounds doing it.
RobbyPants 06-27-07, 10:50 AM	That's another good point I hadn't thought about. If you inisit on using a called shot system, you pretty much have to get rid of True Strike. Tarken does raise some good points. There are pleanty of good called shot-like effects already built into the game.
madbliza 06-27-07, 11:01 AM	What's to prevent most of your players from taking these feats and just slaughtering your people? If I was one of our players, not only would I take these feats but I wouldn't bother with Power Attack since I can just hack the neck and kill them. For instance: Cleric: There's a huge tarrasque! Ranger: I'll just Called Shot him in the neck and we'll be outta here in no time. Personally, from a DM perspective, I wouldn't want every attack I hear from my players to be "Called Shot to the neck". That could get old real quick.
Dalthbar 06-27-07, 11:09 AM	If I were playing in this game, here's what I'd do. Human Fighter (Dex 17, Int 13 - this shouldn't be hard for a decent stat roll) Human Feat: Weapon Finesse (wield a short sword) 1st Lvl Feat: Combat Expertise (pre-req for Called Shot) 1st Lvl Fighter Feat: Called Shot 2nd Lvl Fighter Feat: Imp. Called Shot 3rd Lvl Feat: Cleave (since I'll be dropping people, I might as well take more shots) By 3rd level, I'd be an instant-kill machine. It literally wouldn't even be funny (or fun for other characters probably). Edit: Just to clarify, that would mean that at 3rd level, I'd consistently be one-shot killing two targets each round.
zelf_gale 06-27-07, 11:09 AM	I agree with the posts above that these feats are not a good idea. Please refer to Tarkin's list of appropriate called shot feats, class abilities, and special attacks. On a given character's initiative, you should do the following in order to describe the action. 1) Have the player say which actions they are attempting to perform and describe how character is performing it. 2) Have the player and the DM roll all resulting attack rolls, damage rolls, opposed rolls, miss chance rolls, and necessary skill checks. 3) Describe the results in relation to how they change the scene. Most attempts to create called shot rules are the result of a misinterpretation of how an attack is described. Just because an attack roll is confirmed as a hit does not mean the player ought to have reached their original intent. First you have to take in account of how the amount of damage dealt reflects on the opponents current and maximum hit points. If an attack is well planned but fails to do much damage you can describe an attack that is blocked or dodged but still manages to hurt the opponent in some way, such as being stopped with another part of the opponent's body or rolling out of the way but scraping the opponent up on the floor or walls. None of this however prevents a character from describing what they want to attempt to do. All the rolls together help the describe what actually happens.
tarkin 06-27-07, 02:42 PM	Zelf gave good advice. Here, let me create a "blind the enemey called shot feat". Note, it is a feat. This is an important part of the d20 rule system - special things need special training, or they are so hard to do they just happen. -------------- First note that blinding is a battle winning event most of the time. It is equivlent to bringing them down to 0 hitpoints, and should be about as dificult. Blinding Blow: Pre req: Dex 13+, BAB 6+ Benefit: This ability is only triggered when you sucessfully crit. If after you crit, your opponent has less than 10% of their normal max hitpoints, they roll a savingthrow (they start the day at 80, they were at 50 before you hit, then after your hit they were at 7 hitpoints left). For purposes of this feat, non-lethal damage is the same as lethal (i.e. if they have taken 90% of their hitpoints in non-lethal damage, they still need to make a saving throw). The saving throw is a Fort save, DC equal to the amount of damage done by the weapon (not increased by the crit multiplier, don't count flaming, etc.) A successfull save negates all effect If your blow brought them to 2 or less hitpoints, a failed save means you damaged two eyes. Otherwise, a failed save means that you have damaged one eye. If both eyes are damaged, they are blind, until a Remove Blindness spell or a Regeneration spell is cast on them. If they Regenerate naturally, the blindness is cured in 4 rounds. Fast Healing does not cure blindness. If one eye is damaged, they take a -4 to any ranged attacks, -1 to all other attacks, search or spot checks. --------- This feat effectively grants a chance to blind people, but only if your vicitim has already taken a lot of damage which makes sense. It is helpfull against regenerating creatures, but only for a short time. It is likely to speed up your kills, but not a huge amount. It is most helpfull against ranged attacks, particularly ranged touch attackers.
risner 06-27-07, 04:30 PM	Called Shots? Don't exist in 3.5 D&D. Are these designed to non D&D games?
Vegepygmy 06-27-07, 05:57 PM	Windspear, do yourself a favor and read this: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/calledshots.html
obsidianprism 06-27-07, 07:01 PM	IF I were to allow Called Shot in my game, and IF it took a feat and heavy penalties I believe it would look a little like this: (feel free to edit, rip apart, and critique) Called Shot: Pre-Req: BAB+6, Combat Expertise, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Projectile weapon only (Long bow, Sling, Crossbow etc) [or maybe thrusting type or piecing weapons only, or two different feats, one for melee one for ranged??] Concentration (9 ranks), Spot (9 ranks). Benefit: as a standard action (maybe full round??) you may make a Spot check equal to targets adjusted AC (adjust according to part of body you want to hit) You treat different areas of the targets body as a smaller creature to deal +1 dice extra damage. (I think of a called shot in this case would almost be like a semi-crit) or Benefit: as a standard action (maybe full round??) you may make a Spot check equal to targets adjusted AC (adjust according to part of body you want to hit) You treat different areas of the targets body as a smaller creature to deal stunning damage. Fort Save 10+ damage dealt or be stunned for x-number of round(s). (1d4+1??) Also if you wish to target the knee cap or other source of the creatures movement (provided creature has knee caps, wings, fins etc) Fort Save 10+ damage dealt or move at 1/2 (maybe 3/4) speed for x-number of round(s). I think maybe... treat the neck as a creature 3 sizes smaller and adjust penalties from there... for a medium size creatures neck that would be diminutive. a diminutive creature typically has as AC bonus of +4, hide modifier of +12 and, usually about 6 to 16 point higher DEX (MM pp 314 and 296). Just using AC and Dex mods would give it an AC +7 to +12 or using the hide modifier +12 The knee caps would be smaller still, (even though there maybe more than two, that doesn't make any one of them larger or therefor easier to hit) Fine size; +8 AC mod, +16 hide mod and anywhere from +8 to +18 Dex which would give a called shot adjustment from +12 to +17 using AC and Dex mod or +16 using the hide mod. the last to could be used to hamper creatures, but not stop them in their tracks completely. Maybe stun the Ogre before you get to him, or make sure that fast moving opponent is catchable for a round or two before he runs/flies circles around you. Even still, a called shot to the neck of a fighter wearing full plate would be nearly impossible compared to a wizard wearing no armor. so now you have to make a chart dealing with types of armor and decide which armors would give you how much protection versus a called shot? and would armors for fortification raise bonuses to AC vs called shots or eliminate them completely? So even with true strike, and the +20 to hit, a called shot would still be hard to hit. IMHO If you took the time and effort to make the chart for parts of body, penalties to hit, which armors give you better protection, magical items that could help, balance a feat or two, require skill ranks and limiting weapon selection. then yes, called shots would work. otherwise, i think it would slow the game down even more than it already is.
jaelis 06-27-07, 10:13 PM	It's always ironic to me that a true called shot involves not just aiming for a particular spot, but announcing to the world that you're doing so beforehand. That's why it's "called." So it would be something like this: Fighter: "Watch this... I'm going to totally hit that orc right in the eye!" Cleric: "Yeah right, 5 gp says you miss." Orc: (Raises shield to block eyes.) "Dang. Glad I spend those skill points to learn common!" Called shots are cool in baseball and pool, but a stupid idea in a fight.
obsidianprism 06-27-07, 11:09 PM	Orc: (Raises shield to block eyes.) "Dang. Glad I spend those skill points to learn common!" Called shots are cool in baseball and pool, but a stupid idea in a fight. Best quotes on this tread to date. lol.
Werral 06-28-07, 08:12 AM	Called shots suck because they're a tacked on system. There are RPGs with hit locations as part of their core mechanics and they work fine. 2E bolted on lots of called shots because all the other RPGs (developed years after D&D) had started using hit locations. They just don't gel with the core mechanics. Still Tarkin I don't completely agree with you about Power Attack - why the Str 13 PrQ if it's a called shot? Can't my Str 7 halfling poke someone in the eye? Maybe Power Attack should be a standard option not a feat, while Power Attack lets you say, double the damage bonus. Also if someone's running away, why can't you shoot them in the leg or at least try? Under D&D rules you either shoot to kill, use a feat/spell or use a nonlethal weapon. I think a hit location system could work, but it would have to be a more radical, Unearthed Arcana, type system.
jaelis 06-28-07, 09:13 AM	Still Tarkin I don't completely agree with you about Power Attack - why the Str 13 PrQ if it's a called shot? Can't my Str 7 halfling poke someone in the eye? Maybe Power Attack should be a standard option not a feat, while Power Attack lets you say, double the damage bonus. I kind of agree. I sometimes think they should remove the Str prereq and let it apply (at 1:1 ratio) with light and ranged weapons too. Also if someone's running away, why can't you shoot them in the leg or at least try? Under D&D rules you either shoot to kill, use a feat/spell or use a nonlethal weapon. You can do nonlethal damage with any melee weapon with a -4 penalty. Perhaps ranged weapons should have that option too.
Dalthbar 06-28-07, 09:16 AM	You can do nonlethal damage with any melee weapon with a -4 penalty. Perhaps ranged weapons should have that option too. I think the last thing that ranged weapons need are more abilities and versatility.
jaelis 06-28-07, 09:19 AM	Really? I've never seen a ranged character who was all that versatile (or even effective, really), and they all have serious issues with DR. Could be just my games though.
goawayugh 06-28-07, 09:53 AM	What on earth is quickened truestrike? You don't even know core rules, yet you want to make house rules that make no sense? At least learn the basic rules before making up your own.
Warforged Goblin 06-28-07, 10:02 AM	I think the last thing that ranged weapons need are more abilities and versatility. Yeah, Kossuth forbid there be any of that gorram versatility in the game :rolleyes: I run called shots as an on-the-fly thing. I usually tack a cumulative -2 penalty per relative difficulty. Also, the penalties are done on the fly also. I.e.: A called shot to the leg would be a -2 penalty (before range penalties) and might incur a -5 ft penalty to land speed. A called shot to the eye would be a -6 and would incur penalties to Spot and Search. There are no "instant kill" called shots, that's what the Assassin PrC is for. Of course, sometimes called shots just can't be made or aren't effective. I.e.: If the leg-shot victim drinks a cure potion the movement penalties are negated or if the eye-shot guy is wearing a visor the PC can't make the shot. Let your PCs do creative things with their characters, don't punish them just because there aren't any RAW covering the situation. And remember, if the PCs can do it, NPCs can do it too.
tarkin 06-28-07, 10:06 AM	It is true that Power Attack has a pre-req and fluff text that implies it is not a called shot. But the mechanic is exactly what many people want for called shots penalty to hit, bonus to damage. As such, I include it on my list every three months when it comes up
goawayugh 06-28-07, 10:57 AM	And remember, if the PCs can do it, NPCs can do it too. So true, yet so many people forget this...or just don't implement it. If a PC wants to do something (withing the rules) that seems pretty powerful, I just remind them that they are not the only ones who can do that. Often times they will end up deciding not to do whatever it was. But, if they do....it's fun time for me!
spyderfreek 06-28-07, 11:41 AM	Really? I've never seen a ranged character who was all that versatile (or even effective, really), and they all have serious issues with DR. Could be just my games though. I'm playing an archer right now, and like the rest of the party I had to prepare for the last battle. We all needed cold iron and good weapons. We all needed stoneskin. We all needed heroes feats, bear's endurance, greater heroism, greater magic weapon, death ward, keen, and a few other spells. And when push came to shove the demon we were fighting (Kerzit) appeared behind me. I was a full 60ft away from the closest party member (utilizing my ranged attack). Stone skin saved my elven rear end. My readied action to cast truestrike ended the surprise round. My high initiative allowed me to move and many shot/truestrike for 52 points of damage, the rogue had used dim door as a readied action last round and was able to attack for 57 damage. Everyone else moved up, but were unable to attack for various reasons. Next round, i fired again and scored 49 damage, the rogue did 99, and the barbarian pulled an amazing lucky strike crit out for 152 damage... ending Kerzit. Almost 400pts of damage in 2 rounds of combat (Kerzit was Dim anchored so he couldn't get away) and I did 1/4th of the damage. Now tell me how an archer is ineffective?????
jaelis 06-28-07, 12:00 PM	Look at the numbers... you did about 50 pts/round, the rogue did 75. The barb got lucky with a crit, but what would he have landed without it? Surely 75 or more. I'm not saying archers are worthless. They can do decent, steady damage. But their damage isn't great, and they aren't generally available to soak up enemy attacks. We just haven't had a party where I felt like we wouldn't be better off with a meleer. And anyway, a 1:1 power attack is really kind of crappy. It's main benefit is to help penetrate DR, and if an archer facing DR doesn't have the right arrows, he is typically very screwed.
goawayugh 06-28-07, 12:18 PM	I'm not saying archers are worthless. They can do decent, steady damage. But their damage isn't great, and they aren't generally available to soak up enemy attacks. We just haven't had a party where I felt like we wouldn't be better off with a meleer. Wait until your unconscious and dying just like the rest of your melee party and the Ranger archer comes up (because he is the ONLY one still alive) and stabilizes you with his cure light wounds.
jaelis 06-28-07, 12:31 PM	:) I don't know though, in our last game the ranger always died first. And now our archer is indeed good at staying out of combat, but he keeps shooting people in a grapple and killing the PC :)
spyderfreek 06-28-07, 12:31 PM	jaelis, we should move this before we hijack the thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12890737#post12890737 i started this thread.
stoicfaux 06-28-07, 01:48 PM	For those who threw out ideas for called shot mechanics, wouldn't called shots generate attacks of opportunity? Probably tack on a rule that a successful AOO counters the called shot. (For the record, I think called shots are a really bad idea. Especially when you let the NPCs/monsters perform them on the PCs.)