Can tumble be used by animals? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can tumble be used by animals? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Andaer
02-08-08, 10:01 PM I want to teach my animal companion tumble to help avoid attacks of opportunity. An animal gets at 1 skill point per HD every level, and the skills it is listed with are considered class skills, while all others are cross class.

My character is a halfling with a Chordevoc (from Races of the Wild, a Falcon-like bird domesticated by halflings), and I want to teach it tumble.

Would a bird be able to use the tumble skill, not by rolling on the ground, but by performing airborn acrobatics (Diving, spinning, weaving) to avoid attacks of opportunity?
Sorlen
02-09-08, 03:35 AM There is nothing in RAW to prevent it and I can't think of a reason not to allow it.
war_thog
02-09-08, 09:57 AM RAW is not what hes looking for though.

Plausibly its very difficult to conceive how you would teach a falcon to do this.
A bird diving spinning and weaving around attacks is basically a RP description of it avoiding an attack via its AC.

I wouldnt outright say no if I was your DM, but I'd need you to come up with a good reason of how and why you can teach a bird to dodge AoO's considering it probably cant even grasp the concept of what an AoO is at int 2.
Vrellum
02-09-08, 10:11 AM The description of tumble is one of the lamest descriptions in the whole book (it's also pretty lame which classes get the skill). Tumble simply represents the ability to move from one location to another without lowering your defenses. It is, IMO, silly to require a person to do backflips and cartwheels in order to pull this maneuver off. So, I'd say animals can be trained to "tumble".
Andaer
02-09-08, 12:15 PM RAW is not what hes looking for though.

Plausibly its very difficult to conceive how you would teach a falcon to do this.
A bird diving spinning and weaving around attacks is basically a RP description of it avoiding an attack via its AC.

I wouldnt outright say no if I was your DM, but I'd need you to come up with a good reason of how and why you can teach a bird to dodge AoO's considering it probably cant even grasp the concept of what an AoO is at int 2.

An AoO is more of an in-game concept. The characters don't even know about it. It's more knowing that if you walk by an enemy who has a sword, he could try to attack you. An animal could understand this, since it's more of an instinctual (Wisdom) thing, learnt through watching/experience.

It would be more like I was training it to more effectively dodge/avoid blows. For example dive through there legs, corkscrew upwards, etc.

When someone does a back flip during combat, I doubt the other guy is like, "this guy is weird, and so I'm not going to attack him." I think the tumbling either surprises the guy, or dodges the AoO. That’s why if you fail, he gets to hit you anyways.

As for reasoning, she's my druid's animal companion. My druid has 8 ranks in handle animal (+4, since it is with his animal companion), and +3 in charisma, so he could handle a DC 25 check by just taking 10. He could also cast speak with animals to explain it to her, and she has a 19 in dex, so she has an aptitude for it.

The description of tumble is one of the lamest descriptions in the whole book (it's also pretty lame which classes get the skill). Tumble simply represents the ability to move from one location to another without lowering your defenses. It is, IMO, silly to require a person to do back flips and cartwheels in order to pull this maneuver off. So, I'd say animals can be trained to "tumble".

I agree, the description sucks. Ya, doing a back flip is so unnecessary. Really, I think it would lower your defences, but I guess they are done really well.

Anyways, since the ones they are listed with are considered class skills (in this case hide, spot, listen, and move silently) and all others are considered cross class, you could put ranks in any cross class skill. Heck, you could but ranks in Disable Device, if you wanted. They would get a -4 to a -5, since it is intelligence based, though, and would be a waist of skill points. Really, there is nothing in-game against teaching an animal to tumble.
Airos
02-12-08, 01:02 PM I'd say yes. I don't see any real reason why you could train an animal to do just about everything else, (wear armor, attack unnatural creatures, etc), and not tumble. Just watch one of those dog shows like Westminster or whatever. I think they're doing a fine job of "tumbling".

Of course now I want to get a fox for an animal companion and teach him how to do a barrel roll...

I really hate the internet.
sigma999
02-12-08, 03:09 PM They can and do.

Barrel roll away.
heinrich
02-13-08, 09:09 AM I would agree that nothing in the rules prevents this, although it is seems strange if a flying creature with poor manuverbility would do so.
Slimgauge
02-13-08, 10:05 AM If I put my DM hat on, I'd allow it for medium and smaller animals. Large or larger animals ... I doubt it. You can teach a horse or elephant a lot of tricks, but I don't really see Jumbo the War-Elephant tumbling to avoid the AoO before he tramples Alexander ....
elonin
02-13-08, 01:55 PM Not all large and huge animals are built like elephants. Large animals already get a dex penalty to skills so I'd leave that alone.

I can easily imagine a bird tumbling (don't poor fliers already have a poorer dex which would reflect ability to tumble).
ikki
02-13-08, 07:04 PM ever tried scarig a cat, or cathing one that didnt want to be?
Anyway.. they sure have the skill..
ciaran
02-13-08, 07:15 PM Maybe the can just caught you flat-footed or used the withdraw action. :D

I can't think off the top of my head of any MM animals that have trained-only skills. Not saying there aren't any...
mvincent
02-13-08, 07:48 PM Large or larger animals ... I doubt it.Nessian Warhounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hellHound.htm), Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm) and Greater Barghests (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (all large) have the tumble ability.
Shular
02-14-08, 11:24 AM Don't see any reason that you couldn't. Would still require a lot of skill points, though, so may not be practical. Perhaps it would be better off with the Mobility feat? The dodge, mobility, spring attack tree (there's a flying equivalent...Improved Flyby Attack, or something like that...that doesn't provoke AoO) might be handy for an animal companion.
Slimgauge
02-14-08, 01:05 PM Nessian Warhounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hellHound.htm).

Not an animal

Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm).

Not an animal

and Greater Barghests (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm).

Not an animal

(all large) have the tumble ability.

Outsiders can be very different (and usually more powerful) than animals. I'd stick by my ruling. Jumbo, even circus trained, can balance, but I won't let him tumble.
Shular
02-14-08, 01:20 PM Jumbo, even circus trained, can balance, but I won't let him tumble.

But...but...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK27aknWVI4
Slimgauge
02-14-08, 02:07 PM That elephant obviously has the celestial and/or animated template, making him an outsider or an aberation, not an animal :P

(and the trampoline is made of improbabilium and unobtainum)
.
mvincent
02-14-08, 02:08 PM Not an animalAh... you were meaning 'Animal' rather than just 'animal'. Got it.
Andaer
02-14-08, 11:04 PM I'd say yes. I don't see any real reason why you could train an animal to do just about everything else, (wear armor, attack unnatural creatures, etc), and not tumble. Just watch one of those dog shows like Westminster or whatever. I think they're doing a fine job of "tumbling".

Yes, I can imagine land animals tumbling easily, its more birds I wanted to check. A friend of mine suggested that I should teach it the 'perform' trick, which I think makes sense. Wait, how do you teach an animal to wear armor?

Maybe the can just caught you flat-footed or used the withdraw action. :D

I can't think off the top of my head of any MM animals that have trained-only skills. Not saying there aren't any...

I'd say there are none, since they represent wild animals. Animals get 1 skill point per level, so unless you breed the animal, it would be impossible to teach it a cross-class skills (which all trained only for animals are) unless you raised it. (I don't think you can put a 'half rank' in a skill, can you?)

Nessian Warhounds, Couatl, Greater Barghests(all large) have the tumble ability.

Ironic, because I named my Chordevoc (animal companion) Couatl.

Don't see any reason that you couldn't. Would still require a lot of skill points, though, so may not be practical. Perhaps it would be better off with the Mobility feat? The dodge, mobility, spring attack tree (there's a flying equivalent...Improved Flyby Attack, or something like that...that doesn't provoke AoO) might be handy for an animal companion.

Here are the stats for a chordevoc: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050204a&page=5

That's the beauty of it, she already has good manuverability, a +4 dex bonus, flyby attack and weapon finesse.

I gave her the improved natural armor feat (Would it be better to have another one?) and she has an unbuffed AC of 21. I have a wand of mage armor, which I cast on myself (effects her too, through Companion spell bond [PHB2] and is essentially and improved version of spell sharing, including greater distance) while on the road (AC 25), so it's on before battle, and buff us and others during battle.

I use the spell 'Claws of the beast,' (personal range, but can effect her through companion spell bond as a close ranged spell) giving her a 1D8 attack instead of a 1D3. She attacks, flies off and hides (+16) so she can try to sneak up (+6) on them next round, to deny their dex bonus. If they hear her, she just attacks as normal. She's awesome, and I love her. :D
Airos
02-14-08, 11:49 PM Wait, how do you teach an animal to wear armor?

Well, technically you don't need to. There are cost modifiers for barding, including creatures of unusual shapes and sizes, yet you don't actually have to teach an animal a specific trick for it to get any benefit from it. The animal doesn't even require the appropriate proficiency feat.

My cats, however, spaz out when I put so much as a piece of paper on them. I imagine some training would b required, even if there's no mechanical call for it.
Slimgauge
02-15-08, 11:24 AM Well, technically you don't need to.

Sure, the animal can wear armor untrained if you can prevent them from immediately trying to tear it off.

But if the animal isn't "trained for war" (see the animal type description in the online SRD) or doesn't take the armor proficiency feat, the animal will take the Armor Check Penalty (ACP) on attacks, str and dex based ability and skill checks when wearing armor.
mvincent
02-15-08, 11:50 AM Not an animal.I just noticed that an animal companion familiar is actually a magical beast rather than an 'Animal'.

There are magical beasts in the MMII that have the tumbling skill. At least one (the Gambol - Int 2) is large.

Edit: was thinking 'familiar' for some reason. Disregard for animal companions.
Slimgauge
02-15-08, 12:04 PM Magical beasts are magic. A Wizard did it. Explains anything. :P

Edit: mvincent, I looked in the SRD under Druid's Animal Companion, and unlike a Paladin's Mount, I don't see where it says it's considered a Magical Beast. Can you point me to the reference ?
mvincent
02-15-08, 12:58 PM I looked in the SRD under Druid's Animal Companion, and unlike a Paladin's Mount, I don't see where it says it's considered a Magical Beast. Can you point me to the reference ?Oops. I was absent-mindedly thinking "familiar" throughout the thread (and so checked the familiar section). No, Druid companions are indeed regular animals.
elonin
02-15-08, 01:30 PM Don't sweat it Mvincent. I was half way through my first post before I realized it's not a familiar. I would certainly consider tumble a skill that an animal could do as long as it is teachable and has the right body type. It is a physical skill after all. It's not as though we're discussing teaching the bird to UMD.
Andaer
02-23-08, 01:53 PM but seriously, can you guys sugest a better feat for my Chordevoc (look in my post above)?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andaer 02-08-08, 10:01 PM	I want to teach my animal companion tumble to help avoid attacks of opportunity. An animal gets at 1 skill point per HD every level, and the skills it is listed with are considered class skills, while all others are cross class. My character is a halfling with a Chordevoc (from Races of the Wild, a Falcon-like bird domesticated by halflings), and I want to teach it tumble. Would a bird be able to use the tumble skill, not by rolling on the ground, but by performing airborn acrobatics (Diving, spinning, weaving) to avoid attacks of opportunity?
Sorlen 02-09-08, 03:35 AM	There is nothing in RAW to prevent it and I can't think of a reason not to allow it.
war_thog 02-09-08, 09:57 AM	RAW is not what hes looking for though. Plausibly its very difficult to conceive how you would teach a falcon to do this. A bird diving spinning and weaving around attacks is basically a RP description of it avoiding an attack via its AC. I wouldnt outright say no if I was your DM, but I'd need you to come up with a good reason of how and why you can teach a bird to dodge AoO's considering it probably cant even grasp the concept of what an AoO is at int 2.
Vrellum 02-09-08, 10:11 AM	The description of tumble is one of the lamest descriptions in the whole book (it's also pretty lame which classes get the skill). Tumble simply represents the ability to move from one location to another without lowering your defenses. It is, IMO, silly to require a person to do backflips and cartwheels in order to pull this maneuver off. So, I'd say animals can be trained to "tumble".
Andaer 02-09-08, 12:15 PM	RAW is not what hes looking for though. Plausibly its very difficult to conceive how you would teach a falcon to do this. A bird diving spinning and weaving around attacks is basically a RP description of it avoiding an attack via its AC. I wouldnt outright say no if I was your DM, but I'd need you to come up with a good reason of how and why you can teach a bird to dodge AoO's considering it probably cant even grasp the concept of what an AoO is at int 2. An AoO is more of an in-game concept. The characters don't even know about it. It's more knowing that if you walk by an enemy who has a sword, he could try to attack you. An animal could understand this, since it's more of an instinctual (Wisdom) thing, learnt through watching/experience. It would be more like I was training it to more effectively dodge/avoid blows. For example dive through there legs, corkscrew upwards, etc. When someone does a back flip during combat, I doubt the other guy is like, "this guy is weird, and so I'm not going to attack him." I think the tumbling either surprises the guy, or dodges the AoO. That’s why if you fail, he gets to hit you anyways. As for reasoning, she's my druid's animal companion. My druid has 8 ranks in handle animal (+4, since it is with his animal companion), and +3 in charisma, so he could handle a DC 25 check by just taking 10. He could also cast speak with animals to explain it to her, and she has a 19 in dex, so she has an aptitude for it. The description of tumble is one of the lamest descriptions in the whole book (it's also pretty lame which classes get the skill). Tumble simply represents the ability to move from one location to another without lowering your defenses. It is, IMO, silly to require a person to do back flips and cartwheels in order to pull this maneuver off. So, I'd say animals can be trained to "tumble". I agree, the description sucks. Ya, doing a back flip is so unnecessary. Really, I think it would lower your defences, but I guess they are done really well. Anyways, since the ones they are listed with are considered class skills (in this case hide, spot, listen, and move silently) and all others are considered cross class, you could put ranks in any cross class skill. Heck, you could but ranks in Disable Device, if you wanted. They would get a -4 to a -5, since it is intelligence based, though, and would be a waist of skill points. Really, there is nothing in-game against teaching an animal to tumble.
Airos 02-12-08, 01:02 PM	I'd say yes. I don't see any real reason why you could train an animal to do just about everything else, (wear armor, attack unnatural creatures, etc), and not tumble. Just watch one of those dog shows like Westminster or whatever. I think they're doing a fine job of "tumbling". Of course now I want to get a fox for an animal companion and teach him how to do a barrel roll... I really hate the internet.
sigma999 02-12-08, 03:09 PM	They can and do. Barrel roll away.
heinrich 02-13-08, 09:09 AM	I would agree that nothing in the rules prevents this, although it is seems strange if a flying creature with poor manuverbility would do so.
Slimgauge 02-13-08, 10:05 AM	If I put my DM hat on, I'd allow it for medium and smaller animals. Large or larger animals ... I doubt it. You can teach a horse or elephant a lot of tricks, but I don't really see Jumbo the War-Elephant tumbling to avoid the AoO before he tramples Alexander ....
elonin 02-13-08, 01:55 PM	Not all large and huge animals are built like elephants. Large animals already get a dex penalty to skills so I'd leave that alone. I can easily imagine a bird tumbling (don't poor fliers already have a poorer dex which would reflect ability to tumble).
ikki 02-13-08, 07:04 PM	ever tried scarig a cat, or cathing one that didnt want to be? Anyway.. they sure have the skill..
ciaran 02-13-08, 07:15 PM	Maybe the can just caught you flat-footed or used the withdraw action. :D I can't think off the top of my head of any MM animals that have trained-only skills. Not saying there aren't any...
mvincent 02-13-08, 07:48 PM	Large or larger animals ... I doubt it.Nessian Warhounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hellHound.htm), Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm) and Greater Barghests (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (all large) have the tumble ability.
Shular 02-14-08, 11:24 AM	Don't see any reason that you couldn't. Would still require a lot of skill points, though, so may not be practical. Perhaps it would be better off with the Mobility feat? The dodge, mobility, spring attack tree (there's a flying equivalent...Improved Flyby Attack, or something like that...that doesn't provoke AoO) might be handy for an animal companion.
Slimgauge 02-14-08, 01:05 PM	Nessian Warhounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hellHound.htm). Not an animal Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm). Not an animal and Greater Barghests (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm). Not an animal (all large) have the tumble ability. Outsiders can be very different (and usually more powerful) than animals. I'd stick by my ruling. Jumbo, even circus trained, can balance, but I won't let him tumble.
Shular 02-14-08, 01:20 PM	Jumbo, even circus trained, can balance, but I won't let him tumble. But...but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK27aknWVI4
Slimgauge 02-14-08, 02:07 PM	That elephant obviously has the celestial and/or animated template, making him an outsider or an aberation, not an animal :P (and the trampoline is made of improbabilium and unobtainum) .
mvincent 02-14-08, 02:08 PM	Not an animalAh... you were meaning 'Animal' rather than just 'animal'. Got it.
Andaer 02-14-08, 11:04 PM	I'd say yes. I don't see any real reason why you could train an animal to do just about everything else, (wear armor, attack unnatural creatures, etc), and not tumble. Just watch one of those dog shows like Westminster or whatever. I think they're doing a fine job of "tumbling". Yes, I can imagine land animals tumbling easily, its more birds I wanted to check. A friend of mine suggested that I should teach it the 'perform' trick, which I think makes sense. Wait, how do you teach an animal to wear armor? Maybe the can just caught you flat-footed or used the withdraw action. :D I can't think off the top of my head of any MM animals that have trained-only skills. Not saying there aren't any... I'd say there are none, since they represent wild animals. Animals get 1 skill point per level, so unless you breed the animal, it would be impossible to teach it a cross-class skills (which all trained only for animals are) unless you raised it. (I don't think you can put a 'half rank' in a skill, can you?) Nessian Warhounds, Couatl, Greater Barghests(all large) have the tumble ability. Ironic, because I named my Chordevoc (animal companion) Couatl. Don't see any reason that you couldn't. Would still require a lot of skill points, though, so may not be practical. Perhaps it would be better off with the Mobility feat? The dodge, mobility, spring attack tree (there's a flying equivalent...Improved Flyby Attack, or something like that...that doesn't provoke AoO) might be handy for an animal companion. Here are the stats for a chordevoc: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050204a&page=5 That's the beauty of it, she already has good manuverability, a +4 dex bonus, flyby attack and weapon finesse. I gave her the improved natural armor feat (Would it be better to have another one?) and she has an unbuffed AC of 21. I have a wand of mage armor, which I cast on myself (effects her too, through Companion spell bond [PHB2] and is essentially and improved version of spell sharing, including greater distance) while on the road (AC 25), so it's on before battle, and buff us and others during battle. I use the spell 'Claws of the beast,' (personal range, but can effect her through companion spell bond as a close ranged spell) giving her a 1D8 attack instead of a 1D3. She attacks, flies off and hides (+16) so she can try to sneak up (+6) on them next round, to deny their dex bonus. If they hear her, she just attacks as normal. She's awesome, and I love her. :D
Airos 02-14-08, 11:49 PM	Wait, how do you teach an animal to wear armor? Well, technically you don't need to. There are cost modifiers for barding, including creatures of unusual shapes and sizes, yet you don't actually have to teach an animal a specific trick for it to get any benefit from it. The animal doesn't even require the appropriate proficiency feat. My cats, however, spaz out when I put so much as a piece of paper on them. I imagine some training would b required, even if there's no mechanical call for it.
Slimgauge 02-15-08, 11:24 AM	Well, technically you don't need to. Sure, the animal can wear armor untrained if you can prevent them from immediately trying to tear it off. But if the animal isn't "trained for war" (see the animal type description in the online SRD) or doesn't take the armor proficiency feat, the animal will take the Armor Check Penalty (ACP) on attacks, str and dex based ability and skill checks when wearing armor.
mvincent 02-15-08, 11:50 AM	Not an animal.I just noticed that an animal companion familiar is actually a magical beast rather than an 'Animal'. There are magical beasts in the MMII that have the tumbling skill. At least one (the Gambol - Int 2) is large. Edit: was thinking 'familiar' for some reason. Disregard for animal companions.
Slimgauge 02-15-08, 12:04 PM	Magical beasts are magic. A Wizard did it. Explains anything. :P Edit: mvincent, I looked in the SRD under Druid's Animal Companion, and unlike a Paladin's Mount, I don't see where it says it's considered a Magical Beast. Can you point me to the reference ?
mvincent 02-15-08, 12:58 PM	I looked in the SRD under Druid's Animal Companion, and unlike a Paladin's Mount, I don't see where it says it's considered a Magical Beast. Can you point me to the reference ?Oops. I was absent-mindedly thinking "familiar" throughout the thread (and so checked the familiar section). No, Druid companions are indeed regular animals.
elonin 02-15-08, 01:30 PM	Don't sweat it Mvincent. I was half way through my first post before I realized it's not a familiar. I would certainly consider tumble a skill that an animal could do as long as it is teachable and has the right body type. It is a physical skill after all. It's not as though we're discussing teaching the bird to UMD.
Andaer 02-23-08, 01:53 PM	but seriously, can you guys sugest a better feat for my Chordevoc (look in my post above)?