Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RunLikeHell 06-12-07, 05:43 PM	If i pick up the hide in plain sight. (or even if i was hidden regulary) Is it possiable to hide from someone who has darkvision in an unlit area? When there is no light everything is a shadow but darkvision removes that doesnt it? Thats how my Dm sees it anyway.
SolenVlos 06-12-07, 05:49 PM	yes, hiding isn't limited to shadows you can hide behind something, or be strait behind who you are hiding from.
RunLikeHell 06-12-07, 05:54 PM	What is there isnt anything to hide behind? Your at 1 end of a hall the enemy is at the other end. If there was a tourch you would have shadows but its dark and he has darkvision.
Goat Face 06-12-07, 06:09 PM	What is there isnt anything to hide behind? Your at 1 end of a hall the enemy is at the other end. If there was a tourch you would have shadows but its dark and he has darkvision. I would argue that because Hide in Plain Sight* is a Supernatural Ability*, and is YOUR supernatural ability, that the perception of shadows need only be made by yourself. Remember supernatural abilities are magical by nature, and dont necessarily need to adhere to common sense. Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. Supernatural ability (Su): A magical power that produces a particular effect, as opposed to a natural, extraordinary, or spell-like ability. Using a supernatural ability generally does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Supernatural abilities are not subject to dispelling, disruption, or spell resistance. However, they do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated, such as inside an antimagic field.
madbliza 06-12-07, 06:11 PM	You can hide, your DM is wrong. Darkvision is black and white nightvision. Where there is black you can hide. Hopefully in the world you are gaming in, black spots still mean shadows.
AAB 06-12-07, 06:13 PM	there was a ridiculously long thread on this just a little while ago. here's basically how it went: position 1: "shadows" in the DnD world are not just a trick of light being intercepted by an object, they are actually areas where the plane of shadow overlaps with the material plane. just because a person with darkvision can't see the shadows doesn't mean they're not there. the person with darkvision can't tell that grass is green, either, but it doesn't mean that it isn't. position 2: darkvision allows you to see in the dark. unless you have something to hide behind or have concealment from fog/darkness spell/long grass you cannot hide from a person with darkvision. position 3: it is impossible to hide from someone with darkvision unless you have cover. darkvision is a magical vision that can go through grass, fog, paper, you name it. oh, it gives a concealment bonus? so what? you still can't hide, neener-neener. (if you can't tell i don't necessarily agree with position 3)
madbliza 06-12-07, 06:13 PM	Hide in Plain Sight is not a Supernatural ability. It is just an advancement to the class skill, hide. It allows you to make a hide check while being observed. Of course, you cannot use this ability if there is nothing to hide behind.
Fara 06-12-07, 06:20 PM	Hide in Plain Sight is not a Supernatural ability. It is just an advancement to the class skill, hide. It allows you to make a hide check while being observed. Of course, you cannot use this ability if there is nothing to hide behind.The Shadowdancer's "Hide in plain sight" class ability from the 3.5 DMG disagrees with you, since it clearly has "(su)" attached to it.
AAB 06-12-07, 06:29 PM	shadowdancer - Su ranger - Ex shadowdancer can't HiPS in an antimagic field, ranger can
Goat Face 06-12-07, 07:32 PM	It is just an advancement to the class skill, hide. Which class skill?...I'm honestly asking, and not being argumentative. I'm apparently missing somthing here... The Shadowdancer's "Hide in plain sight" class ability from the 3.5 DMG disagrees with you, since it clearly has "(su)" attached to it. :rofl: shadowdancer - Su ranger - Ex shadowdancer can't HiPS in an antimagic field, ranger can Whoa! never caught that difference before...thanks for the heads up!
Steevo 06-12-07, 11:36 PM	If i pick up the hide in plain sight. (or even if i was hidden regulary) Is it possiable to hide from someone who has darkvision in an unlit area? When there is no light everything is a shadow but darkvision removes that doesnt it? Thats how my Dm sees it anyway. I would allow you to hide if you have Hide in Plain Sight. If you didn't have that power, however, and if you had nothing but darkness to conceal you, you could not hide from someone with darkvision if within 60 feet. If you're farther away than 60 feet, darkvision counts for nothing and you're back to basics.
Shlohloh 06-12-07, 11:52 PM	if I may say honestly its being overthought here. Taken as just a skill in a game it should do just what it says it does. If you want more realism use the simple theory that what ever is blocking light would block whatever spectrum you happen to be observing. That being said thermal vision doesn't rely on traveling spectrum it relies on radiated energy. If you want to get neurotically crazy about it decide what spectrum the vision works in and then research the particular properties of that spectrum. To be honest though it doesn't really matter these are great hero's and villains they can do funky thing's.
runestar 06-12-07, 11:58 PM	I interpret darkvision as the ability to simply see in the dark as though it were bright. Thus, what you can normally detect with darkvision is still limited to what you can typically see with your senses. Thus, it would not let you detect hidden characters any more readily. It is not some sort of infra-red sensor or anything.:)
Halloween Jack 06-13-07, 12:49 AM	The class feature is called "Hide in Plain Sight." It means that you can Hide even though you're in Plain Sight.
koiulpoi 06-13-07, 01:50 AM	Oh dear Jesus, not this again. I'm putting a stop to this, right now. YES, you can hide from someone with Darkvision, but it requires the Hide in Plain Sight ability. Tome of Magic, page 158: "A creature can't use Hide within 60 feet of a character who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover, or has the hide in plain sight ability" Yes, this is a secondary source, and so some people will hand wave this away, despite it keeping the intent of the original rules. It doesn't take a very liberal reading of the original ability (can hide even when being observed, can hide without anything to hide behind) to see that it would be effective against creatures with darkvision. Also, there's a ring in the MIC that makes you invisible to darkvision.
Shlohloh 06-13-07, 10:16 AM	[QUOTE=koiulpoi;12706206]Oh Tome of Magic, page 158: "A creature can't use Hide within 60 feet of a character who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover, or has the hide in plain sight ability" /QUOTE] THIS changes my Post since it seems that ok though in a bit of an out of the way location there is a rule for what darkvision can see. I assume though that if there is cover and concealment they can hide behind that.
madbliza 06-13-07, 10:30 AM	The Shadowdancer prestige class requires certain conditions for their HIPS ability to work. That's why it is listed as a Supernatural Ability for them. Despite that, it still requires a hide check regardless of the class this feature appears in. As for the class skill I was referring to, it is obviously the HIDE skill. Also, as a side note, my gaming group decided that if you can hide from Truesight, then you can hide from Darkvision. Just mentioning.
tarkin 06-13-07, 10:47 AM	1. Hiding requires a hiding spot. If you are in an empty room, then you can NOT hide, even if it has no light. People might not see you, because there is no light, but you are not hiding. 2. When you hide, you go to a hiding spot. If someone with Darkvision then enters the room, he must make a Spot check to see you. 3. Attempting to hide sometimes requires concealment (but not all the time). If someone has darkvision, merely being being in the dark will not provide concealment, so you will need to use one of the OTHER methods: Cover, distraction, etc.
BW0222 06-13-07, 01:59 PM	Folks, My take... Normal hiding requires some type of concealment or cover. Without it hiding is impossible. In most cases, I rule that one must begin and end their turn within cover or concealment. Otherwise, they are spotted immediately. Examples (all assuming no surprise), 1. If you are in an alley and someone is looking at you, and you move behind a small box (normal cover), you can't hide. It is obvious that you moved their and are trying to hide. 2. Someone enters an alley and you are already hiding behind the box. On your turn you move out from behind the box into the open (ending your turn in a place without cover or concealment). You are hidden, until the creature's initiative, at which point they spot you. 3. Someone enters an alley and you are already hiding behind the box. On your turn you move out from behind the box and move 20' behind some laundry (concealment). You can remain hidden. 4. You are hiding behind a box. On their intiative they move beside the box so you don't have cover anymore. They spot you automatically. Now, hide in plain sight allows the shadowdancer to: Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. As I see it, proved that there is a shadow of some sort within 10' they can still remain hidden, even if there is no cover or concealment. If you repeat the examples (using shadows instead of a box), the shadow dancer could remain visible in #1, #2, #3, and #4. Basically, you don't need to start and end your turn within concealment provoked that there are some shadows within 10'. The issue is then, when and where are there shadows. There are no shadows in darkness or brightly lit areas. Fine. Hopefully we can agree on this. However, other 'shadows' depend upon who you are asking. For example, a light spell sheds light 20' (no shadows), then 20' of shadowy illumination (shadows), and then darkness (no shadows). Thus, you would have a 20' wide area of shadows out 20' from the light source. However, if you had low-light vision, suddenly you have 40' of normal illumination, 40' of shadows, and then darkness. And finally, someone with darkvision sees no shadows within 60' (since they see through any type of light or darkness) and then nothing (total concealment). Because different folks see 'shadows' differently, and you could have folks seeing the same area with or without shadows, I don't think one could rule where shadows based on whether folks can see them or not. IMO, I'd rule shadows as a constant condition based on normal (human) vision and lighting. Torch gives 20' (no shadows), 20' (shadows). A shadow dancer could hide within 10' or a torch, up to 30' from the torch -- even if this would put him in plain light or darkness without concealment or cover. What type of vision one has (low-light, owl, darkvision, etc.) doesn't matter. In the original examples, provided that the normal lighting conditions in the alley included places of shadowy illumination -- i.e. not full daylight, twilight, or darkness with some type of light source, etc. -- then I'd rule that shadows exist within the area and the shadowdancer could hide provided he started and ended his turn within 10' of one of them.
AAB 06-13-07, 02:30 PM	actually, shadowy illumination is different from a shadow. shadowy illumination provides concealment; the light there is simply less intense than closer to the source. a shadow, i would say, is where the light is blocked by some solid object. thus, under my interpretation, almost all underground areas are not simply "dark", they are one big shadow cast by the surface of the earth.
BW0222 06-13-07, 03:21 PM	AAB, actually, shadowy illumination is different from a shadow. shadowy illumination provides concealment; the light there is simply less intense than closer to the source. a shadow, i would say, is where the light is blocked by some solid object. thus, under my interpretation, almost all underground areas are not simply "dark", they are one big shadow cast by the surface of the earth. I think if you stretch shadow to mean anything other than direct sunlight, IMO, that is way too broad. Under that definition there would be shadows everywhere. Sand in the desert casts shadows! I think that the shadow would have to be sufficiently large enough and contrasting enough with other light conditions to be considered a shadow. Shadows from blades of grass are too small, and IMO normal shadows cast by objects out in otherwise direct sunlight are too weak to be considered a shadow. IMO, go with the shadowy illumination rules. Not that they are really good, but anything else is too vague for the DM to keep ruling on. I don't want players arguing what is and isn't a 'shadow'.
zorgling25 06-13-07, 05:00 PM	I've always figured that the idea behind Hide in Plain Sight is that your character becomes able to effectively camouflage him/herself in the manner of a chameleon, so that even if you were in a brightly illuminated plain room, you would blend your appearance to match the walls perfectly (well, as perfectly as your hide check allows). I assume that it would thus apply for Darkvision as well. EDIT: Read the ability description for the ranger. The Camouflage ability allows the ranger to hide in natural terrain even if it doesn't grant concealment or cover. I guess that hide in plain sight is supposed to extend on this ability.
Psikerlord 06-13-07, 05:08 PM	Take a ring of the darkhidden (MIC) for 2000gp. Makes you constantly invisible to darkvision. All rogues without hide in plain sight should pick one up for that price.
koiulpoi 06-13-07, 09:10 PM	1. Hiding requires a hiding spot. If you are in an empty room, then you can NOT hide, even if it has no light. People might not see you, because there is no light, but you are not hiding. Firstly, are you talking about Hide, or Hide in Plain sight? Either way this is blatantly wrong. You don't need a "hiding place", you need cover or concealment. A completely dark room gives you something called "concealment" from people who can't see in the dark (note you hadn't mentioned darkvision yet), meaning you can hide. 2. When you hide, you go to a hiding spot. If someone with Darkvision then enters the room, he must make a Spot check to see you. "A creature can't use Hide within 60 feet of a character who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover, or has the hide in plain sight ability" So, I suppose if you had cover, which seems to be what you're calling a "hiding spot", then yes, you can. 3. Attempting to hide sometimes requires concealment (but not all the time). If someone has darkvision, merely being being in the dark will not provide concealment, so you will need to use one of the OTHER methods: Cover, distraction, etc. No kidding. Did you just start posting here to give "your answer" without reading the rest of the thread? To everyone else, since (as far as I can see), D&D never provides a clear definition of what a "shadow" is, it means that yes, there basically are shadows mostly everywhere. If you want to be a little more strict about it, say that shadows only exist in shadowy illumination (which makes little sense...)
wizarddog 06-14-07, 12:31 AM	I will buy the argument that the shadow dancer's power is supernatural vs the Rangers (extraordinary). (since it becomes worthless considering how many creatures have darkvison) But what about the Assassins? Is it super natural as well since they get spells? And given that it is a supernatural it can it be hindered by detect magic, surpressed by a spell thief, dispelled? :confused:
Nom 06-14-07, 01:14 AM	Either way this is blatantly wrong. You don't need a "hiding place", you need cover or concealment. A completely dark room gives you something called "concealment" from people who can't see in the dark (note you hadn't mentioned darkvision yet), meaning you can hide.Actually, it gives you "total concealment", meaning that Hide checks are redundant.
LoreleiIsildae 06-19-07, 12:55 AM	I've posted the following in a similar thread. Okay, I hope this will clear things up for everyone. I just got a copy of the new Forgotten Realms adventure, Cormyr - The Tearing of the Weave. In it, on page 5, under the heading "Combat in the Dark," it very clearly states the following: "A creature can't use Hide within 60 feet of a character who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover, or has the hide in plain sight ability." Now I know this is just a Realms adventure supplement and not a rulebook, but as far as I know, it is the only thing I've seen so far to clarify the issue. So in terms of the Shadowdancer's HiPS ability, then yes, you can be in total darkness to use it. Spread the word.
Thiez 06-19-07, 02:56 PM	Folks, My take... Normal hiding requires some type of concealment or cover. Without it hiding is impossible. In most cases, I rule that one must begin and end their turn within cover or concealment. Otherwise, they are spotted immediately. 3. Someone enters an alley and you are already hiding behind the box. On your turn you move out from behind the box and move 20' behind some laundry (concealment). You can remain hidden. That's hilarious. Try this one: 5. Someone enters an alley and you are hiding behind the box, while under influence of Expeditious Retreat and Silence. On your turn you move towards them, stab them in the face with Spring Attack, and move 20' behind some laundry (conceilment). You can remain hidden. In my game, if you move in plain sight at some point, you can (and will be) spotted. Having said that, I sometimes use Facing in out-of-combat situations, like this: 6) Someone enters an alley and you are hiding behind the box. The guy turns around, and shouts "Nope Bob, nobody here!". Someone in the distance shouts "Just make sure you check behind that box, Jim!" <Player quickly moves 20', behind the laundry, using Move Silently, while 'Jim' is still looking at the exit of the alley>. Jim turns around, looks behind the box, sees nothing, and leaves. Jim would get a spot to notice you behind the laundry, and might get a spot when he enters the alley, depending on how big that box was (if you got total cover, he's not going to see you). He also got a Listen check when you moved silently.
madbliza 06-19-07, 03:07 PM	I vaguely remember reading that if run from a spot that you were hiding in to another hiding spot that you have to succeed on a HIDE vs. SPOT check with a minus to the hide check in order to do it. If only I could remember where I read it.
BW0222 06-19-07, 05:22 PM	Thiez, That's hilarious. Try this one: 5. Someone enters an alley and you are hiding behind the box, while under influence of Expeditious Retreat and Silence. On your turn you move towards them, stab them in the face with Spring Attack, and move 20' behind some laundry (conceilment). You can remain hidden. Except that as soon as you attack you are no longer hidden. Moving back behind cover won't help since once noticed, you can't hide again -- at least this round. In my #3 case, merely moving doesn't make you visible by itself. Moving from tree to tree in a forest, moving through a crowd, etc. are all examples of where you effectively have concealment at the beginning and end of your round even though for a fraction of a second, you might not have concealment during the move. This assumes that you are trying to hide. If you are taking some action such as attacking someone, yelling, waving a red flag, etc. they you aren't hiding and are spotted instantly. Merely moving behind cover/concealment does not allow you to hide again that round. In my game, if you move in plain sight at some point, you can (and will be) spotted. I'm not saying they can't see you -- just they need to make a spot check vs. your hide. If you start or end your turn without cover or concealment, you can't hide. If you can move between the objects, you can remain hidden, although they still get spot checks (and likely listen). If you rule that if at any point you don't have concealment as every point along the way, then hide becomes useless except in darkness or fog. You can't sneak up on someone in a forest unless three tree have low branches, in a crowd unless you are dragging people behind you, etc., etc. Jim would get a spot to notice you behind the laundry, and might get a spot when he enters the alley, depending on how big that box was (if you got total cover, he's not going to see you). He also got a Listen check when you moved silently. Which is what I said. Except, lets assume that the hiding person waits until the person entering the ally looks back, checks his sword, examines some boxes, looks at some dog poop on the ground, etc. and only makes his move when that person isn't looking. He is limited to half movement not because he is moving slowly (in fact he is moving extremely quickly), but because he is only moving during the time the person isn't paying 100% attention. I.e. there is no need to roleplay a reason for someone to not be paying attention to allow it. IMO, most creatures aren't 100% attentive and the hiding person can look for opportunities -- bring all around sight or something. And if the observer has lots of ranks in spot, then presumably he is trained not to examine boxes for more than a fraction of a second, to swivel his head alot, to ignore dog poop, etc. and pay more attention to movement in the alley -- making it harder to sneak up on him.