Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UndeadViking 05-10-07, 10:38 AM	I apologize if this has been debated before, but I can't find it here and I don't see anything related to it in the 3.5 errata or FAQ. Is it possible to take ten on a Knowledge check? According to the Knowledge skill description, you can't Try Again with this skill, which seems to indicate you can't take 10. Under the Taking 20 rule, it clearly states that you are trying again and again until you get a 20, which definitely rules out taking 20 with Knowledge since the skill states you can't try again. I would assume this applies to the Taking 10 rule, as well. Knowledge Skill: Action: Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t. Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place. Thoughts, anyone?
Merestil Haye 05-10-07, 11:01 AM	I apologize if this has been debated before, but I can't find it here and I don't see anything related to it in the 3.5 errata or FAQ. Is it possible to take ten on a Knowledge check? According to the Knowledge skill description, you can't Try Again with this skill, which seems to indicate you can't take 10. Under the Taking 20 rule, it clearly states that you are trying again and again until you get a 20, which definitely rules out taking 20 with Knowledge since the skill states you can't try again. I would assume this applies to the Taking 10 rule, as well.This assumption is simply wrong. The rules about Taking 10 are that you must be undistracted. That's the only qualification for taking 10. Thus you can't take 10 to recall, in the heat of battle, that the vampire is hard to hurt unless your weapon is an enchanted silver weapon - but if you know you're going up against a Vampire the next day you can take 10 to recall their weaknesses so you can properly prepare to defeat it.
UndeadViking 05-10-07, 11:18 AM	Actually, you can't be distracted in either case (Taking 10 or Taking 20). And again, for Knowledge, it does state that you can't try again, because thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place. The logic seems strange to me. If you can't take 20 on a Knowledge check because the skill says you can't try again, why would you be able to take 10? Taking 10 When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help. Taking 20 When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take. Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
tricky_bob 05-10-07, 12:54 PM	I think its best to ignore the auto fail on a roll of 1 with knowledge checks. You can't take 10 or 20 on a knowledge check.
Feroz 05-10-07, 01:04 PM	I think its best to ignore the auto fail on a roll of 1 with knowledge checks. You can't take 10 or 20 on a knowledge check. There's nothing to ignore, a roll of 1 is only an autofail on attack rolls and saves, not on skill checks, not even for Use Magic Device, though it does have other repercussions there, and as Merestil Haye pointed out, you can take 10, but you can't take 20 on knowledge checks. Taking 20 simply represents trying again and again until you do your absolute best work possible, which you can't do with knowledge skills, so you can't take 20 on them. Taking 10 does not involve trying again at all, so you can take 10 on them.
ShinAkuma2 05-10-07, 01:50 PM	The logic seems strange to me. If you can't take 20 on a Knowledge check because the skill says you can't try again, why would you be able to take 10? Where's your logic? You can't take 20 because you can't try again, this much is true. However, Taking 10 has absolutely nothing to do with trying again, so there's no link to be made here. The only skill you can't Take 10 on is UMD, because it specifically says so. So long as you aren't being rushed, you can Take 10 on any other skill.
Kursk 05-10-07, 02:39 PM	If you look at it (knowledge skill) this way; I know about 3 monsters, The roll is preordained in that I only know what I know and the roll is just a way of giving me odds (meta game) of knowing about something. In that case "taking 10" wouldn't be possible as it changes those odds. It's not like I'm trying to accomplish s/g that hasn't yet happened, like climbing a tree. In reality, something I do NOW can vary my chance of climbing that tree. Nothing I do (at that moment) is going change what I (my character) knows on a subject.
Steevo 05-10-07, 03:33 PM	It's not like I'm trying to accomplish s/g that hasn't yet happened, like climbing a tree. In reality, something I do NOW can vary my chance of climbing that tree. Nothing I do (at that moment) is going change what I (my character) knows on a subject. In my opinion, taking 10 on a knowledge check means you're sitting down and thinking. Actively trying to remember things you've read or heard instead of just working with the stuff that comes quickly to mind. You're sorting out what you're sure you know about the given subject and what you might be misremembering (which represents your discarding the ability to roll 11-20) before you start spouting off at the mouth. This is what you're doing NOW to help improve your knowledge check, analogous to climbing slowly and carefully. That's also why you can't do it when you're threatened or distracted, because there are more pressing things on your mind.
Kursk 05-10-07, 03:41 PM	In my opinion, taking 10 on a knowledge check means you're sitting down and thinking. Actively trying to remember things you've read or heard instead of just working with the stuff that comes quickly to mind. You're sorting out what you're sure you know about the given subject and what you might be misremembering (which represents your discarding the ability to roll 11-20) before you start spouting off at the mouth. This is what you're doing NOW to help improve your knowledge check, analogous to climbing slowly and carefully. That's also why you can't do it when you're threatened or distracted, because there are more pressing things on your mind. That would be okay except, you can't reroll the check so that demonstrates that success or failure already takes into account "misremembering" or the like. So, no, you can't take 10 per the mechanics of the game.
Steevo 05-10-07, 03:51 PM	That would be okay except, you can't reroll the check so that demonstrates that success or failure already takes into account "misremembering" or the like. So, no, you can't take 10 per the mechanics of the game. As several other posters have already said, taking 10 does not involve rerolling anything. You aren't trying to do the task more than once, you're just being very careful about doing it the one time. I agree you can't reroll a knowledge check. You can't try more than once. Taking 10 is not trying more than once.
BW0222 05-10-07, 04:07 PM	Steevo In my opinion, taking 10 on a knowledge check means you're sitting down and thinking. Well, you don't need to sit and presumably you are thinking even if you decided to rolled a 10. So, IMO, this isn't a useful interpretation. Actively trying to remember things you've read or heard instead of just working with the stuff that comes quickly to mind. You're sorting out what you're sure you know about the given subject and what you might be misremembering (which represents your discarding the ability to roll 11-20) before you start spouting off at the mouth. And you wouldn't be doing this if you rolled? This is what you're doing NOW to help improve your knowledge check, analogous to climbing slowly and carefully. That's also why you can't do it when you're threatened or distracted, because there are more pressing things on your mind. Except you aren't slowing down. It doesn't take any longer, and you aren't getting any better results than if you rolled a 10. In fact, you are doing nothing differently that if you rolled a 10. IMO, handle it this way. Rolling If you roll... you roll and then roleplay the result. If you see a creature and roll a 3 (+1) on a knowledge nature check, you can roleplay saying that a that some wolves look like wild dogs, coyotes, worgs, maybe blink dogs, or you have no idea what they are, etc. If you wish to roleplay that you were hurrying, not paying attention, were too involved with exotic creatures, etc. it really doesn't matter. If you wish to factor in how close you were to the DC, fine. As long as you don't know -- the rest is flavor-text. If you roll a 19 (+1), you can say they are wolves and can roleplay knowing their scientific name, mating habits, where they like to made dens, good places to sell pelts, etc. You can roleplay being an expert about wolves if it helps. Of course, everything beyond knowing it is a wolf is also flavor-text. Now, if you want to role a 10, you'll either know or you won't. If you get an 11, you just failed, so you might wish to roleplay "Vaguely remember something about these creatures in a book, but you just can't remember." or you can roleplay coming up blank. And of course if you were +13 on knowledge nature and rolled a 10, you roleplay the 23. Not the 10. You'd still likely roleplay it as being an expert on wolves. Take 10 If you take a 10, you will either succeed or fail. You'll either know it was a wolf, or you won't. You merely roleplay the result same as if you rolled a 10. In either case, it is the result which determines how you wish to roleplay what you were doing. If you take a 10 and get an 11, you don't recognize the wolf. If you take a 10 and get a 23, you recognize it. As in rolling, you roleplay the 11 or the 23 -- and not the act of taking a 10. Taking a 10 does not represent anything different. There is no need to treat it differently than rolling and ... surprise... rolling a 10. In the end, the PC is doing nothing differently between take 10 and rolling a 10. If you wish to roleplay them as attentive, inattentive, confused, brilliant, a sudden flash of inspiration, etc. great. However, it is based on the final result of the check... not the method used to determine the result.
jimpaladin 05-10-07, 04:17 PM	Yes you can take 10 on a knowledge check. Don't forget to add any modifiers. Realize alot of knowledge checks start at DC 15 and up(not all but most) so unless you have a +5 you will still be in the same boat as rolling low.
jaelis 05-10-07, 04:17 PM	It is a little funny. In the heat of battle, you have to roll to see if you know a monster's weakness... lets say you need an 8, but you roll a 3 and fail. Then you don't know it, and never will (unless you learn it specifically from experience). But if someone had asked you the exact same question an hour earlier, you would have known. It does seem a bit odd, but who cares, it's just a game. Note that it's also funny that you technically can't retry even after gaining more ranks in the skill. You could totally mess up a wizard's career by asking him a ton of hard questions when he was first level... he'll never be able to make knowledge checks on those questions again, even at level 20 :)
UndeadViking 05-10-07, 04:27 PM	These are all really good replies, both for and against (though some could have been more polite about it), and I'm starting to view it from both perspectives. I can understand how taking 10 in situations where you must concentrate on thinking is viable, such as having to make a mathematical calculation for just how much load a wooden bridge can take before it collapses (Knowledge: Architecture or Engineering or something). In that situation, you need time to carefully think and calculate, so taking 10 on the knowledge check would make sense. It would be tough to to do that math in your head while being attacked, or if you were standing on the bridge while you're in the middle of an ice storm spell or a giant is advancing on you, so in that situation it makes sense that you're distracted and can't take 10. On the flip side, either you know a vampire's attack causes energy drain (Knowledge: Relgion check for undead, as stated in the PHB) or you don't, or that a particular snake is poisonous or not, so I don't see how taking 10 makes sense there. Some seem to be suggesting that it's a matter of memory, and that it's easier to access your memory when you're not distracted. I guess the memory thing could be argued both ways. However, I think the taking 10 rule really makes much more sense for physical skills such as open lock. It's easier to calmly, carefully focus on picking a lock when there's no threats or distractions, to take 10 makes sense. When you're in a burning room or a hill giant is trying to club you, it's a heck of a lot harder to stay steady and look at the lock and concentrate on feeling the tumblers click. Anyway, if you go by the RAW, I suppose you should allow taking 10 on Knowledge checks. But I think there are definitely situations where it doesn't make a lot of sense. Thanks again for all the responses!
EvilVegan 05-10-07, 04:29 PM	That's why wizards who fail their tests in school are flunked! Teacher - What are the weaknesses of a great wyrm, a bodak, and a troll? Student - Uhhh I don't know yet! Teacher - NOW YOU NEVER WILL MUAHAHAHAH!
Forged_Fury 05-10-07, 11:23 PM	I'm personally a fan on the Take 10 rule. Consider it this way: A cleric has 8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion). Those are 8 skill points they've devoted to learning about (among other things) undead creatures. That's really quite an investment, especially for characters like clerics who start off from a position of weakness on the skill points. The cleric and his party run into a Ghoul, which they have never encountered before. The cleric rolls a 1 on his knowledge check with a final result of 9. This character has devoted 8 skill points and still doesn't know what a ghoul is (actually, he doesn't even know the dead looking thing is even undead for that matter)?!?!? Here's how I handle it. Any character that chooses to take Knowledge Skills automatically takes 10 whenever they encounter something in their field. I provide them with the information appropriate to the result of their Take 10 check. If they so choose, they can then opt to roll a Knowledge Check which may end up providing them with more useful information (if they roll well), no more information (if they roll slightly below to slightly above average), or possibly erroneous information that they have "misremembered" (if they roll low). Personally, I think it provides a bit more value for the knowledge skills. -FF Edit: Finally, a point on Taking 10. Take 10 does not mimic rolling several times. Instead, it mimics rolling a 10 once. It is a safety mechanism to prevent, for instance, a character from failing his or her Jump check to cross a 5' chasm because he or she rolled a 1. Or a 5th level cleric with max ranks of Knowledge (Religion) not knowing what a freaking ghoul is.
Steevo 05-11-07, 10:52 AM	Well, you don't need to sit and presumably you are thinking even if you decided to rolled a 10. So, IMO, this isn't a useful interpretation. Of course you don't need to sit, but the point is you stop what you're doing and concentrate on thinking. And you wouldn't be doing this if you rolled? No, at least you wouldn't be spending as much time on it. If you roll, it only takes one round to get the answer. That means you spent a maximum of 6 seconds thinking before you came back with your answer. Taking 10, you spend 10 times as long (60 seconds) to ponder what you really know and don't know about the subject before answering. You can take 10 to think things through, which might help you remember some details that didn't spring immediately to mind, however, you cannot take 20, because there comes a point when you've thought all you have to think about the subject and thinking any longer won't produce any new results. In mechanical terms, the cut-off is apparently one minute. Thems the rules for D&D, if you don't like it, change it. Personally, I think the system works well enough for what's required of it.
Beware of Kobold 05-11-07, 11:05 AM	taking a 10 doesnt represent being careful and taking your time. that's what taking a 20 represents. taking a 10 represents doing an average job in which you arent taking any risks and getting an average result. rolling your skill check represents doing the job with some small risk leaving things to chance a bit. the risk might pay off, it might cause you to fail. taking a 20 represents doing a job precisely and being very careful, by taking 20 times as long as it normall would.
wal9000 05-11-07, 11:11 AM	Of course you don't need to sit, but the point is you stop what you're doing and concentrate on thinking. No, at least you wouldn't be spending as much time on it. If you roll, it only takes one round to get the answer. That means you spent a maximum of 6 seconds thinking before you came back with your answer. Taking 10, you spend 10 times as long (60 seconds) to ponder what you really know and don't know about the subject before answering. No. You do not take 10 times as long when you take 10. Taking 10 means your character is just doing an average job on something. Taking 20 on the other hand means he's trying again and again until he does as well as he possibly can (by getting a 20). That's why you can't take 20 on anything that doesn't allow retries or would have penalties for failure. There is no such rule for taking 10. If you wanted you could just ban taking 20 and have everyone just roll a d20 until the succeed, but that's a waste of time. You can take 10 to think things through, which might help you remember some details that didn't spring immediately to mind, however, you cannot take 20, because there comes a point when you've thought all you have to think about the subject and thinking any longer won't produce any new results. In mechanical terms, the cut-off is apparently one minute. Thems the rules for D&D, if you don't like it, change it. Personally, I think the system works well enough for what's required of it. Taking 20 means you try again and again until you're successful. You can't use it on knowledge checks because if you don't know something the first time you try to remember it then sitting around trying to remember harder doesn't help. At least not for me, but I've always assumed that other people work that way too. It's like when you lose something. If you can't think of where you put it, sitting down for 19 more 6 second increments wouldn't make you remember it. You have to get up and check places.
BW0222 05-11-07, 12:30 PM	Steevo, No, at least you wouldn't be spending as much time on it. If you roll, it only takes one round to get the answer. That means you spent a maximum of 6 seconds thinking before you came back with your answer. Taking 10, you spend 10 times as long (60 seconds) to ponder what you really know and don't know about the subject before answering. As wal9000 said, it does not take ten times longer to take a 10. It is the same action as rolling the skill check. Most knowledge checks don't even require an action. You just know (or don't know) the answer. You can take 10 to think things through, which might help you remember some details that didn't spring immediately to mind, however, you cannot take 20, because there comes a point when you've thought all you have to think about the subject and thinking any longer won't produce any new results. In mechanical terms, the cut-off is apparently one minute. Sorry, but this is completely false. a) Taking a 10 takes no longer than rolling. b) You can't take a twenty on a knowledge check because the rules say you can't take a twenty on skills which do not allow retries. Knowledge skills do not allow retries. Your reasons are not part of the rules. c) There is no one minute cut off on take 20 (or take 10) in the rules. Thinking (knowledge checks) takes no time. Most standard actions (say searching a square) take two minutes to try. Many other actions take far longer. Escape artist takes one minute. Taking a twenty would take twenty minutes. Finding a good camp site might take ten minutes. Taking a twenty would take over three hours. Gathering information might take an hour. Taking a twenty might take several days. Taking a ten still takes more than a minute. I have no idea where you get these things. Thems the rules for D&D, if you don't like it, change it. Again, them's not the rules. Honestly, when you spout that type of clearly incorrect rules you really hurt your credibility. When you add the condesending attitude, IMO, you just make yourself look silly. When folks are saying on the forums, that take 10 doesn't take any longer, didn't you even look up the rules and double check? If I see something which doesn't seem right (say if someone said "Knowledge checks allow retries."), I'd certainly want to correct him. However, I'd at least want to look it up so ensure that I'm correct before calling him wrong. I do accept the possiblity that I sometimes get things wrong. I'd also want to have the quote to provide the person and in some cases I'll even look it up in the 3.0 or SRD just to see if there is a reason he might have gotten it wrong. Finally, I don't post with a "them's the rules" attitude without some solid quotes and I assume they make an honest mistake. And yes, even though I was pretty darn sure that taking a 10 doesn't take ten times as long, I looked it up. PHB, p65.
Empiro 05-11-07, 02:07 PM	I've posted a similar response in another thread, but I'll chime in here too. While the rules do allow a take 10 on knowledge checks, in all the games I've played in, we've always had everyone roll knowledge checks. My main issue with taking 10 is that it feels really awkward, especially if you use the DCs presented in the book. Because if you have a +4 to your knowledge check, taking 10 means that you know _every_ really easy fact, but no basic facts at all! As soon as you increase it to +5, then you suddently know _every_ basic fact too. Rolling better represents the fact that even if you're well versed in a field, there's still gaps in your knowedge, and that occasionally, even a beginner might have learned some obscure fact about something that you come across. Second, a knowledge check really represents your state of mind: e.g. you either know something or you don't. Just because you're distracted by combat doesn't mean that if you roll low, then suddenly you permanently forget something that you would have known in the first place, and likewise, you wouldn't suddenly develop new knowledge either.
Irving 05-11-07, 05:07 PM	Let me put it this way: It never occurred to me to let PCs take 10 on Knowledge checks when I ran a game. But I sure wish I did now. A knowledge check is a little bit like a locked door. You need a skill check to pass through to the next part of the adventure (or to get a clue as to how to proceed.) Failing the check is more likely to stall the adventure than to make things more fun. It's in the best interests of everyone to make it as easy as possible to keep the adventure moving.
Empiro 05-11-07, 10:16 PM	Let me put it this way: It never occurred to me to let PCs take 10 on Knowledge checks when I ran a game. But I sure wish I did now. A knowledge check is a little bit like a locked door. You need a skill check to pass through to the next part of the adventure (or to get a clue as to how to proceed.) Failing the check is more likely to stall the adventure than to make things more fun. It's in the best interests of everyone to make it as easy as possible to keep the adventure moving. Not necessarily. Just as if a PC can't pick open a lock, they can find away around it, the PCs can find a way around a failed knowledge check. As long as there are meaningful altnernatives, then it's not a serious issue. For example, if they're in town, they could consult a sage, go to a noble's library, cast divination spells, and so on. All of those cost the PCs some resources, so having the knowledge skill is still better than not having it. In side a dungeon, a failed knowledge check means that they might not know the weakness of the boss at the end, and have to figure it out themselves. Or perhaps they'll need to be zapped a few times by a trap before they figure out the way to bypass it. Again, in both cases, there's a negative consequence to failing the knowledge check, but it doesn't completely stop the game.
Nathreet 05-12-07, 12:00 AM	IMO, you can't take a 10 on a knowledge check. You either know it or you don't. Action Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t. Try Again No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place. It might be better clarified in a FAQ, if you care to check. Though it does seem strange that only UMD explicity says you can't take a 10 with it. So I might be mistaken. EDIT: I checked the FAQ, and taking 10 (or not taking 10) isn't mentioned for knowledge or any skill except UMD. i.e., the FAQ doesn't give an answer. By a strict reading of the rules I'd say yes, you can take a 10 on any skill except UMD (as long as you aren't under any pressure). But I don't think that makes any sense. I think a more logical interpretation of the above description in the rules would say, "No."
Lucas Blackstone 05-12-07, 01:36 AM	Why do so many people have issues with taking 10's or 20's in D&D. I thought it was a fantastic idea. I don't see why players agreeing to do an average job is bad or wrong. The only issues I've seen with it is when rogues take 20's to search for traps. I'm not against the concept of a rogue thinking out his search procedure, and being careful about his search. The problem is that it sets up a hard limit of what the rogues can find and not find in a dungeon, which in turn means that traps are either going to be found automatically, or are out of the rogue's ability to find. Since that is his job, that's fine overall. Noone gets upset when the wizard's fireball kills the kobolds that were going or attack the party, or if the cleric's healing spell heals the recipient, so it's not disbalanced that a rogue can find traps within his skill range, I just know it doesn't sit well with many people.
Steevo 05-12-07, 01:49 AM	Honestly, when you spout that type of clearly incorrect rules you really hurt your credibility. When you add the condesending attitude, IMO, you just make yourself look silly. I apologize if you took offense to my posts. I was not trying to speak with any kind of attitude. I was simply explaining the way I run the game. If you don't like that, you're certainly not under any kind of obligation to do it the same way, please feel free to ignore my posts as you see fit.
DarkRhystar 05-12-07, 01:51 AM	IMO, you can't take a 10 on a knowledge check. You either know it or you don't. Right, you either know it or you don't. If you roll it, you may know it... you may not know it. Depends on the roll. If take 10, you automatically either know it or don't know it. Besides, rolling leads to disturbing and somewhat dumb outcomes. Imagine a situation along the lines of where a Cleric of X rolls high enough one day to know what a Lich looks like and low enough the next day to not know what an ordinary skeleton looks like. How much sense would that make?
Vegepygmy 05-12-07, 02:04 AM	Why do so many people have issues with taking 10's or 20's in D&D.It totally baffles me, too. The take 10/20 rules are one of the best concepts developed by 3.x, IMO. And for the record, yes, of course you can take 10 on a Knowledge check.
ShinAkuma2 05-12-07, 02:20 AM	The only issues I've seen with it is when rogues take 20's to search for traps. I'm not against the concept of a rogue thinking out his search procedure, and being careful about his search. The problem is that it sets up a hard limit of what the rogues can find and not find in a dungeon, which in turn means that traps are either going to be found automatically, or are out of the rogue's ability to find. The easy way around this is to impose a time limit. When the Rogue doesn't have hours to spend searching every square, Taking 20 is less viable.
Empiro 05-12-07, 02:31 AM	Right, you either know it or you don't. If you roll it, you may know it... you may not know it. Depends on the roll. If take 10, you automatically either know it or don't know it. Besides, rolling leads to disturbing and somewhat dumb outcomes. Imagine a situation along the lines of where a Cleric of X rolls high enough one day to know what a Lich looks like and low enough the next day to not know what an ordinary skeleton looks like. How much sense would that make? No less so than the fact that if you do take 10s and have a +4, you know the answers to exactly 0 "basic" questions, and if you level up and put one point into it, you suddenly know the answer to _every_ single "basic" question about the subject. The cleric rolling low on a knowledge check about a skeleton may just indicate that he mis-identified it -- e.g. thinking that it's a Mohrg or one of the other 50 different skeleton-like undead in the world. But, at the end of the day, no-take 10 on knowledge checks is a house-rule, though I find it to be one that's very sensible.