Casting Defensively scales improperly; A fix. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting Defensively scales improperly; A fix. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
im_robertb
09-13-07, 09:50 PM Issue:
Casting defensively is much easier at higher levels than it is at lower levels. A 17th level spellcaster (20 ranks) will succeed at casting a 9th level spell, his best on the defensive with a roll of 4*. A 1st level spellcaster (4 ranks) will succeed at casting a 1st level spell, his best, on the defensive with a roll of 12*. Such disparity adds to the fighters for low levels, casters for high levels issue.

*does not include modifications for constitution modifier (+1 or +2), combat casting (+4 to casting defensively), skill focus (+3), tunic of spellcasting (+5, 2500 gp), etc. These generally give the higher level character more of an advantage anyway, as they are more readily available.

Status:
As it is now for casters:
Concentration Modifier = level + 3 (skill ranks) + CON mod (usually +1 or +2) + magic items + feats
Casting DC = 15 + spell level

The maximum DC is obviously with the highest level spell available to the caster at the time. In this case,

Casting DC = 15 + half character level (rounded up)

The skill check gets +1 for every level, the DC gets +1 for every two levels. This is why it gradually gets easier to defensively cast your best spell as you go up in levels; the check DC doesn't keep up with your max skill ranks. Therefore, my proposed fix:

Solution:

DC for Casting Defensively: 15 + (spell level x 2)

The result: From levels 1-18, assuming maximum ranks in concentration, +1 CON modifier, no feats, magic items, or spells to help, a full caster must roll <b>an 11 or 12*</b> to successfully cast their highest level spell on the defensive.

*11 at even levels, 12 at odd levels

If you disagree with some of my assumptions (con mod, feats, gear) the data still only shifts up or down regardless of level. For example, if you say 'every caster in my game has a +4 constitution modifier,' this still makes the neccessary roll stay the same from levels 1-18, they just need an 8 or 9 instead of 11 or 12.

Why I think my way is better:
-Casters shouldn't be able to cast while threatened with impunity if they haven't spent resources (aside from the mandatory skill points) on doing so.
-Those who want to be able to do so still can - Combat Casting and a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (+5, MIC, 2500) bring the neccessary roll down to 2 or 3, <b>if the caster has a mere 12 constitution</b>. I think it's fair to ask a character sacrifice a little something for the ability to do this.
-It offers the tradeoff of the caster having to make the choice of perhaps casting a lower level spell while in melee to avoid failing the concentration check. Therefore, more strategy is involved from 1-18.
-Rolls are quickly unneccessary at mid levels - it's silly to be able to succeed even on a natural 1 (not an auto-fail on skill checks).

Customization:
Is a 60% chance of failure too much for your game? Would you rather have 10% across the board? Make it DC 5 + (spell level x2). Would you prefer to make Combat Casting pretty much neccessary for anyone who wants to cast in melee? DC 22 + (spell level x2).

Also, I've been saying it works beautifully at levels 1-18. At levels 19 and 20, spellcasting progression stops while skill modifiers keep increasing; the numbers shift to 10 and 9 respectively. Just an FYI.

Finally, how does this affect casters who don't get 9th level spells, such as the bard, and paladin/ranger? They still get to automatic defensive casting regardless of spell level, but significantly later.

Next week: Tumble.
PhaedrusXY
09-13-07, 10:19 PM Working as intended. No fix necessary, IMO.
Tedronai
09-13-07, 11:55 PM The problem with defensive casting is not the EASE of doing so at high levels, but the DISPARITY when compared to low levels (where the caster is drastically weaker anyway). However, for the main function of a skill (and a function for which the character/creature in question does not control) to fail with any degree of frequency when kept at max ranks is simply unreasonable IMO.

While I would be in favour of increasing the DC at higher levels, any method of doing so that also increases the DC by a comparable amount at low levels, IMO, will produce more problems than it solves.

A DC of 10+(2 * Spell level) both brings the DC into a reasonable range at low levels, and increases it at high levels.
Vegepygmy
09-14-07, 12:01 AM If you disagree with some of my assumptions...I disagree with your main one: that there's anything "improper" about the way casting defensively scales.
runestar
09-14-07, 03:03 AM I agree in that defensive casting is likely intended to scale improperly, in that it is much harder to succeed at lower lvs than at higher lvs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
im_robertb 09-13-07, 09:50 PM	Issue: Casting defensively is much easier at higher levels than it is at lower levels. A 17th level spellcaster (20 ranks) will succeed at casting a 9th level spell, his best on the defensive with a roll of 4. A 1st level spellcaster (4 ranks) will succeed at casting a 1st level spell, his best, on the defensive with a roll of 12. Such disparity adds to the fighters for low levels, casters for high levels issue. does not include modifications for constitution modifier (+1 or +2), combat casting (+4 to casting defensively), skill focus (+3), tunic of spellcasting (+5, 2500 gp), etc. These generally give the higher level character more of an advantage anyway, as they are more readily available. Status: As it is now for casters: Concentration Modifier = level + 3 (skill ranks) + CON mod (usually +1 or +2) + magic items + feats Casting DC = 15 + spell level The maximum DC is obviously with the highest level spell available to the caster at the time. In this case, Casting DC = 15 + half character level (rounded up) The skill check gets +1 for every level, the DC gets +1 for every two levels. This is why it gradually gets easier to defensively cast your best spell as you go up in levels; the check DC doesn't keep up with your max skill ranks. Therefore, my proposed fix: Solution: DC for Casting Defensively: 15 + (spell level x 2) The result: From levels 1-18, assuming maximum ranks in concentration, +1 CON modifier, no feats, magic items, or spells to help, a full caster must roll <b>an 11 or 12</b> to successfully cast their highest level spell on the defensive. *11 at even levels, 12 at odd levels If you disagree with some of my assumptions (con mod, feats, gear) the data still only shifts up or down regardless of level. For example, if you say 'every caster in my game has a +4 constitution modifier,' this still makes the neccessary roll stay the same from levels 1-18, they just need an 8 or 9 instead of 11 or 12. Why I think my way is better: -Casters shouldn't be able to cast while threatened with impunity if they haven't spent resources (aside from the mandatory skill points) on doing so. -Those who want to be able to do so still can - Combat Casting and a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (+5, MIC, 2500) bring the neccessary roll down to 2 or 3, <b>if the caster has a mere 12 constitution</b>. I think it's fair to ask a character sacrifice a little something for the ability to do this. -It offers the tradeoff of the caster having to make the choice of perhaps casting a lower level spell while in melee to avoid failing the concentration check. Therefore, more strategy is involved from 1-18. -Rolls are quickly unneccessary at mid levels - it's silly to be able to succeed even on a natural 1 (not an auto-fail on skill checks). Customization: Is a 60% chance of failure too much for your game? Would you rather have 10% across the board? Make it DC 5 + (spell level x2). Would you prefer to make Combat Casting pretty much neccessary for anyone who wants to cast in melee? DC 22 + (spell level x2). Also, I've been saying it works beautifully at levels 1-18. At levels 19 and 20, spellcasting progression stops while skill modifiers keep increasing; the numbers shift to 10 and 9 respectively. Just an FYI. Finally, how does this affect casters who don't get 9th level spells, such as the bard, and paladin/ranger? They still get to automatic defensive casting regardless of spell level, but significantly later. Next week: Tumble.
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 10:19 PM	Working as intended. No fix necessary, IMO.
Tedronai 09-13-07, 11:55 PM	The problem with defensive casting is not the EASE of doing so at high levels, but the DISPARITY when compared to low levels (where the caster is drastically weaker anyway). However, for the main function of a skill (and a function for which the character/creature in question does not control) to fail with any degree of frequency when kept at max ranks is simply unreasonable IMO. While I would be in favour of increasing the DC at higher levels, any method of doing so that also increases the DC by a comparable amount at low levels, IMO, will produce more problems than it solves. A DC of 10+(2 * Spell level) both brings the DC into a reasonable range at low levels, and increases it at high levels.
Vegepygmy 09-14-07, 12:01 AM	If you disagree with some of my assumptions...I disagree with your main one: that there's anything "improper" about the way casting defensively scales.
runestar 09-14-07, 03:03 AM	I agree in that defensive casting is likely intended to scale improperly, in that it is much harder to succeed at lower lvs than at higher lvs.