Charge Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charge Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
newsman77
07-12-07, 12:42 PM So I'm looking at the following feats and wondering if they all stack into a single charge attempt. It doesn't seem right to me.. can someone help?

Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Superior Bull Rush (Eberron)
Leap Attack
Powerful Charge (Eberron)
Greater Powerful Charge (Eberron)

Isn't it more like:

Bull Rush + Charge OR Power Attack Charge + Leap Attack?
Dalthbar
07-12-07, 01:01 PM Power Attack is subsumed by Leap Attack, so you can remove that from the list. Likewise, Powerful Charge is Subsumed by Greater Powerful Charge.

But you can certainly Leap Attack & get the benefits from G. Powerful Charge because a leap attack is a "charge + jump" and the Powerful Charge feats trigger off of charging.

I have a Scout with Leap Attack & Powerful Charge, so I get those bonuses along with Skirmish - which is fun.

I don't know if you can bull rush when you charge though as charging requires that there's nothing in your way to obstruct you.
ravenshrike
07-12-07, 01:01 PM Yes, Yes, dunno if this replaces or stacks with normal bull rush, yes, yes(but damage replaced by greater), see prev.

Technically leap attack changes power attack under certain conditions, not fully replaces it.
Nom
07-13-07, 02:38 AM Dumb question: why are you using Power Attack and Bull Rush in the same round? PA affects melee damage rolls and melee attack rolls. Bull rush has neither.
newsman77
07-13-07, 12:03 PM because with warforged juggernaut 5 I can add armor spikes, plus strength to damage and add in Greater charge.

It's confusing because it says that the bull rush has to be part of a charge. And you can power attack and leap attack the charge... so can you stack them all for some interesting damage? That's what I'm trying to find out.
Nom
07-15-07, 08:26 AM My ruling on such things is that if it doesn't require an "attack roll", PA doesn't count. An automatic hit (eg CDG, attacking objects) counts as an attack roll, but using an alternative resolution mechanic (grappling, bull rush) doesn't.
kjenks
07-15-07, 03:18 PM My ruling on such things is that if it doesn't require an "attack roll", PA doesn't count. An automatic hit (eg CDG, attacking objects) counts as an attack roll, but using an alternative resolution mechanic (grappling, bull rush) doesn't.

And I disagree. The wording of Power Attack is different from the wording of Combat Expertise in this regard.

Grappling is a melee attack and it inflicts melee damage, so Power Attack would certainly apply. Bull Rush doesn't inflict melee damage, so it doesn't enter into this discussion.
Nom
07-15-07, 06:09 PM Grappling is a melee attack and it inflicts melee damage, so Power Attack would certainly apply. Bull Rush doesn't inflict melee damage, so it doesn't enter into this discussion."Attack your opponent" inflicts melee damage. While one could certainly rule that because "damage your opponent" inflicts damage "equivalent to your unarmed strike" that PA applies, I believe this falls squarely into the "no free lunch" camp. If you want PA, you better suffer the penalty in some manner.

Otherwise, the feat becomes "deals bonus damage equal to BAB while grappling", which is just silly.
kjenks
07-15-07, 06:47 PM Silly is a good word for it, but that's the rule.

I have advocated for a long time that a grapple check is like a melee attack roll (as the PH says), including both the penalties and bonuses of Power Attack. But the FAQ disagrees with me and we end up with this silly situation: Power Attack adds a damage bonus to grapple damage but no penalty on the grapple check, since the FAQ specifically says that the Power Attack penalty does not apply.

I don't like it one little bit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
newsman77 07-12-07, 12:42 PM	So I'm looking at the following feats and wondering if they all stack into a single charge attempt. It doesn't seem right to me.. can someone help? Power Attack Improved Bull Rush Superior Bull Rush (Eberron) Leap Attack Powerful Charge (Eberron) Greater Powerful Charge (Eberron) Isn't it more like: Bull Rush + Charge OR Power Attack Charge + Leap Attack?
Dalthbar 07-12-07, 01:01 PM	Power Attack is subsumed by Leap Attack, so you can remove that from the list. Likewise, Powerful Charge is Subsumed by Greater Powerful Charge. But you can certainly Leap Attack & get the benefits from G. Powerful Charge because a leap attack is a "charge + jump" and the Powerful Charge feats trigger off of charging. I have a Scout with Leap Attack & Powerful Charge, so I get those bonuses along with Skirmish - which is fun. I don't know if you can bull rush when you charge though as charging requires that there's nothing in your way to obstruct you.
ravenshrike 07-12-07, 01:01 PM	Yes, Yes, dunno if this replaces or stacks with normal bull rush, yes, yes(but damage replaced by greater), see prev. Technically leap attack changes power attack under certain conditions, not fully replaces it.
Nom 07-13-07, 02:38 AM	Dumb question: why are you using Power Attack and Bull Rush in the same round? PA affects melee damage rolls and melee attack rolls. Bull rush has neither.
newsman77 07-13-07, 12:03 PM	because with warforged juggernaut 5 I can add armor spikes, plus strength to damage and add in Greater charge. It's confusing because it says that the bull rush has to be part of a charge. And you can power attack and leap attack the charge... so can you stack them all for some interesting damage? That's what I'm trying to find out.
Nom 07-15-07, 08:26 AM	My ruling on such things is that if it doesn't require an "attack roll", PA doesn't count. An automatic hit (eg CDG, attacking objects) counts as an attack roll, but using an alternative resolution mechanic (grappling, bull rush) doesn't.
kjenks 07-15-07, 03:18 PM	My ruling on such things is that if it doesn't require an "attack roll", PA doesn't count. An automatic hit (eg CDG, attacking objects) counts as an attack roll, but using an alternative resolution mechanic (grappling, bull rush) doesn't. And I disagree. The wording of Power Attack is different from the wording of Combat Expertise in this regard. Grappling is a melee attack and it inflicts melee damage, so Power Attack would certainly apply. Bull Rush doesn't inflict melee damage, so it doesn't enter into this discussion.
Nom 07-15-07, 06:09 PM	Grappling is a melee attack and it inflicts melee damage, so Power Attack would certainly apply. Bull Rush doesn't inflict melee damage, so it doesn't enter into this discussion."Attack your opponent" inflicts melee damage. While one could certainly rule that because "damage your opponent" inflicts damage "equivalent to your unarmed strike" that PA applies, I believe this falls squarely into the "no free lunch" camp. If you want PA, you better suffer the penalty in some manner. Otherwise, the feat becomes "deals bonus damage equal to BAB while grappling", which is just silly.
kjenks 07-15-07, 06:47 PM	Silly is a good word for it, but that's the rule. I have advocated for a long time that a grapple check is like a melee attack roll (as the PH says), including both the penalties and bonuses of Power Attack. But the FAQ disagrees with me and we end up with this silly situation: Power Attack adds a damage bonus to grapple damage but no penalty on the grapple check, since the FAQ specifically says that the Power Attack penalty does not apply. I don't like it one little bit.