Charging and Multiple Attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charging and Multiple Attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Landshark
03-03-08, 08:46 AM There is a character in my 3.5 campaign that has Cleave and Combat Reflexes with a spiked chain.

Currently, it seems as if he is able to charge in to melee (against 2HD) creatures and attack an enemy creature. If it is slain, he is able to attack again with cleave (up to 3 more times - his 17 dex).

The rules state under charge: "...Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge."

However, under Full-Round actions it states: "Cleave: The extra attack granted by the Cleave feat or Great Cleave feat can be taken whenever they apply. "

Is he allowed to make this multiple attack after Charging or not?? :confused:
Rebel7284
03-03-08, 10:30 AM combat reflexes works for attacks of opportunity. Cleave is not an attack of opportunity. If you drop a creature, the cleave feat allows you ONE extra attack against another opponent in reach. This is not a normal attack and is not restricted by charging. If you also kill the second opponent (in one hit) you stop unless you have the great cleave feat (in which case you again get ONE more attack, etc.)
Landshark
03-04-08, 06:24 AM Okay, are these TWO additional attacks with Cleave and Combat Reflexes in one Initiative Round (yours and the enemy's) or just your round?

For example, let's say I have initiative. I charge and slay an orc. With Cleave and Combat reflexes, I'm able to slay a Goblin (2 hex range weapon) and another Goblin. It's now Evil's turn :eek: and 2 goblins activate Attacks of Opportunity. It's in the same initiative round, do I get to attack?

(Thanks for the reply...)
Kouk
03-04-08, 07:03 AM Combat Reflexes in no way benefits you in that situation.

If you Charge a foe and drop him, you can take your one free attack against an adjacent enemy because of the Cleave feat.

If you drop the second opponent using your Cleave, you still have to stop there, you get no more attacks.

Reread the feats and the rules about attacks of opportunity. Combat Reflexes allows you to take extra Attacks of Opportunity, which means when the enemies present an opening for you you are able to attack them more often than a normal character without Combat Reflexes.

An example of Combat Reflexes would be: You are surrounded by 3 goblins. You use an item which produces a fear effect in all the goblins on your turn. On the goblins' turn, they try to get away from you. Moving out of a square you threaten provokes an AoO, so the first one provokes and you take your AoO. Normally the second one moving out of your square is free and clear because you would normally only get a single AoO a round -- but because of Combat Reflexes you can take more than one and can attack the next one to move out of your threatened area.

Remember about Combat Reflexes though, that movement out of threatened squares counts as only a single opportunity. If a creature chooses to run in circles around you, it only provokes a single attack of opportunity from the opportunity of "Moves out of a threatened square". The only way you would get a second AoO on the same enemy is if the enemy does something else which provokes, such as casting a spell or drinking a potion.
AKA_Kompera
03-05-08, 09:51 AM I'm the player in question.

To clarify, Landshark is confusing the benefits of Cleave and Combat Reflexes/AOO, but the gist of the example is accurate.

In our last adventure, I (playing my 2nd Barbarian / 1st Fighter Apetoo) Charged to within 10' of two evil Monks. I killed the first, and used Cleave to attack and killed the second. On their turn, a 3rd Monk charged me (little 'c', because I don't recall if the Monk actually used the Charge special attack or just closed with a move action. In either case it is irrelevant to the discussion) from further away than 10'. As he closed from 10' to 5' (moving out of the square I threatened 10' away via the reach of the Spiked Chain) I took an AOO on him, and killed him also. And since I've also purchased Combat Reflexes, should additional Monks have decided to close with me, I could have taken up to 3 more AOO based on my 17 DEX. This gives me a hypothetical total attack count of 7 in any given melee round. Once for my single attack at 3rd level, 1 for Cleave, and 4 for AOO. For the record, I've never yet seen any benefit from Combat Reflexes, having never had an opportunity to take a second AOO in any given melee round. But the potential is there, and it makes my character look extremely potent in melee. Which is exactly my intent. I'm a melee specialized character, it'd be hard for me to not be good at it unless I chose a pile of Weapon Focus Feats and Feats such as Endurance and Agile.

This was just 1 round of an 8 round combat, and it was my best run of luck throughout. It seemed over the top to Landshark, even though I explained that it did require good hit rolls, good damage rolls, and that I had to spend 3 Feats (EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, Cleave) to even have the chance to accomplish the deed.

Regardless of the seeming potency, I believed and I still believe that the rules were being followed. The Charge maneuver states, in part:
Attacking on a Charge

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

I believe that the portion reading "Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge" is both poorly written and redundant to the same rule written far more clearly elsewhere. Charge is a Full-Round action. Full attack is a Full-Round action. The two already can not be combined in a single round, and the text regarding the additional attacks is a poorly written reference to that restriction. The rules for Full-Round actions already spells out that limitation very unambiguously:

Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
If the text was considered necessary in the description of Charge, rather than listing two examples of Full Attack actions (taking additional attacks based on BAB, or taking additional attacks based on Two-Weapon fighting) and saying "such as", leaving open some unnecessary ambiguity, the text should instead have referred to the restrictions on Full-Round actions.
Jackmojo
03-05-08, 06:44 PM A but see, you should have been a Lion totem Barbarian from Complete Champion and then you'd have pounce and could full attack on a charge...then you'd need two weapon fighting for the chain too...whee!

Jack

P.S. You're following the rules fine as far as I read.
BugHunter
03-05-08, 08:17 PM This gives me a hypothetical total attack count of 7 in any given melee round. Once for my single attack at 3rd level, 1 for Cleave, and 4 for AOO.

Your base numbers are correct but 1+1+4=6 not 7. Don't forget the improved trip feat. I've used improved trip with combat reflexes and got a second AoO against the same target.

1st AoO caused by leaving threaten square trip attack successful. Get the free attack for damage at +4 to hit for the target being prone.

2nd AoO caused by target trying to stand up also at +4 to hit.

Repeat as needed until out of AoOs.
Red_Wizards_Rock
03-05-08, 11:13 PM Cleave attacks are not AoO's they are free attacks. If he has Great Cleave he can cleave all day long without using any of his AoO.
Kouk
03-06-08, 12:53 AM You are basically correct AKA_Kompera, however I also count 6 attacks there :P

As to whether that is "overpowered", yes and no. Mostly no.

The trick is for the DM to know of all the ways to thwart such tactics while not thwarting them constantly. You did invest in this and should have it work most of the time. Also remembering that movement by a creature only provokes the one time, so even if you take your AoO on an approaching enemy, if you don't drop him (or Trip him) he can run around you as much as he wants.

It is only overpowered when the DM does not expect it, which is true for most anything a character does, in my experience :D

I recommend that Landshark look up some threads about dealing with Spiked Chain using characters, there are lots of ways to fight against such a character, so many that I don't want to start listing them again :P

EDIT: And in addition, this tactic pretty much caps out by level 5 or 6 when you get all the feats. Compared to classes such as full casters and Tome of Battle guys, who will continually improve. It is an unfortunate reality of 3.x that Core melee classes hit a "glassteel ceiling".
Howie23
03-06-08, 01:09 AM I could have taken up to 3 more AOO based on my 17 DEX. This gives me a hypothetical total attack count of 7 in any given melee round. Once for my single attack at 3rd level, 1 for Cleave, and 4 for AOO. .

Edit: I've been corrected; you can only Cleave once per round. My bad.

Others have pointed out that 4+1+1=6, not 7. However, it's moot; you're shorting your hypothetical output. You can Cleave on the the AoOs, also. So, your output is 4 AoO, 1 attack, and 5 cleaves for a total of 10. For example, after killing the charging third monk, you could have taken a Cleave on a fourth monk if one was within reach, or pounded on the ones already downed to keep 'em down.

Any DM should develop an understanding, talking with you, if necessary, of the tactics associated with reach attacks and overcoming. It doesn't mean that he should regularly use them, but those NPCs who have options and reasonable knowledge of what they are facing should make use of those options.

David
BugHunter
03-06-08, 09:10 AM Others have pointed out that 4+1+1=6, not 7. However, it's moot; you're shorting your hypothetical output. You can Cleave on the the AoOs, also. So, your output is 4 AoO, 1 attack, and 5 cleaves for a total of 10.

He only has cleave which allows for one extra attack per round so no 5 cleaves in the round. If you have great cleave then it can be used on each AoO.
AKA_Kompera
03-10-08, 11:24 AM But, but, but.... 1 + 1 + 4 does equal 7, for sufficiently small values of 7. ;) Ok, thanks for the correction. What do you expect from a dumb Barbarian?

Thanks for the rules clarifications, everyone who posted a reply. Greatly appreciated.

To those suggesting Feats such as Great Cleave, Improved Trip (which requires Combat Expertise), etc, please remember that I'm 3rd level. :) Even as a Human I've got only 4 Feats to spend. Power Attack, Cleave, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes, and I'm tapped out. Some of those other Feats may come later, but Great Cleave not so much. If I'm facing multiple opponents and I can expect to kill several of them in a single round, I don't think I need to spend a Feat to kill them faster.

To Jackmo, who suggested Pounce and TWF, I plead confusion. I understand the benefits of Pounce, but our group doesn't use the Comp. Champion. And the Spiked Chain is a 2HW, so there's no using TWF with it as a M sized Human.
Jackmojo
03-10-08, 11:55 AM To Jackmo, who suggested Pounce and TWF, I plead confusion. I understand the benefits of Pounce, but our group doesn't use the Comp. Champion. And the Spiked Chain is a 2HW, so there's no using TWF with it as a M sized Human.

Sorry, for some reason I was thinking a spiked chain was a double weapon, must be watching too many kung fu movies where they fight with both ends of a chain whip.

Too bad about the pounce, you should buy your GM a present for Easter or something, since he works so hard to run a good game and all, maybe a shiny new DnD book... ;)

Jack
Howie23
03-10-08, 02:53 PM He only has cleave which allows for one extra attack per round so no 5 cleaves in the round. If you have great cleave then it can be used on each AoO.

"You can use this ability once per round." My bad. Thanks for the correction.
BugHunter
03-10-08, 08:08 PM To those suggesting Feats such as Great Cleave, Improved Trip (which requires Combat Expertise), etc, please remember that I'm 3rd level. :) Even as a Human I've got only 4 Feats to spend. Power Attack, Cleave, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes, and I'm tapped out. Some of those other Feats may come later, but Great Cleave not so much. If I'm facing multiple opponents and I can expect to kill several of them in a single round, I don't think I need to spend a Feat to kill them faster.

A two level dip into fighter will get you improved trip. The level dips into fighter doesn't hurt to much, it just depends what kind of a build you want.
Amtekoth2
03-19-08, 08:11 PM Maybe this has been answered before, but do you get multiple attacks at the end of a charge with Shock Trooper or Slashing Flurry?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Landshark 03-03-08, 08:46 AM	There is a character in my 3.5 campaign that has Cleave and Combat Reflexes with a spiked chain. Currently, it seems as if he is able to charge in to melee (against 2HD) creatures and attack an enemy creature. If it is slain, he is able to attack again with cleave (up to 3 more times - his 17 dex). The rules state under charge: "...Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge." However, under Full-Round actions it states: "Cleave: The extra attack granted by the Cleave feat or Great Cleave feat can be taken whenever they apply. " Is he allowed to make this multiple attack after Charging or not?? :confused:
Rebel7284 03-03-08, 10:30 AM	combat reflexes works for attacks of opportunity. Cleave is not an attack of opportunity. If you drop a creature, the cleave feat allows you ONE extra attack against another opponent in reach. This is not a normal attack and is not restricted by charging. If you also kill the second opponent (in one hit) you stop unless you have the great cleave feat (in which case you again get ONE more attack, etc.)
Landshark 03-04-08, 06:24 AM	Okay, are these TWO additional attacks with Cleave and Combat Reflexes in one Initiative Round (yours and the enemy's) or just your round? For example, let's say I have initiative. I charge and slay an orc. With Cleave and Combat reflexes, I'm able to slay a Goblin (2 hex range weapon) and another Goblin. It's now Evil's turn :eek: and 2 goblins activate Attacks of Opportunity. It's in the same initiative round, do I get to attack? (Thanks for the reply...)
Kouk 03-04-08, 07:03 AM	Combat Reflexes in no way benefits you in that situation. If you Charge a foe and drop him, you can take your one free attack against an adjacent enemy because of the Cleave feat. If you drop the second opponent using your Cleave, you still have to stop there, you get no more attacks. Reread the feats and the rules about attacks of opportunity. Combat Reflexes allows you to take extra Attacks of Opportunity, which means when the enemies present an opening for you you are able to attack them more often than a normal character without Combat Reflexes. An example of Combat Reflexes would be: You are surrounded by 3 goblins. You use an item which produces a fear effect in all the goblins on your turn. On the goblins' turn, they try to get away from you. Moving out of a square you threaten provokes an AoO, so the first one provokes and you take your AoO. Normally the second one moving out of your square is free and clear because you would normally only get a single AoO a round -- but because of Combat Reflexes you can take more than one and can attack the next one to move out of your threatened area. Remember about Combat Reflexes though, that movement out of threatened squares counts as only a single opportunity. If a creature chooses to run in circles around you, it only provokes a single attack of opportunity from the opportunity of "Moves out of a threatened square". The only way you would get a second AoO on the same enemy is if the enemy does something else which provokes, such as casting a spell or drinking a potion.
AKA_Kompera 03-05-08, 09:51 AM	I'm the player in question. To clarify, Landshark is confusing the benefits of Cleave and Combat Reflexes/AOO, but the gist of the example is accurate. In our last adventure, I (playing my 2nd Barbarian / 1st Fighter Apetoo) Charged to within 10' of two evil Monks. I killed the first, and used Cleave to attack and killed the second. On their turn, a 3rd Monk charged me (little 'c', because I don't recall if the Monk actually used the Charge special attack or just closed with a move action. In either case it is irrelevant to the discussion) from further away than 10'. As he closed from 10' to 5' (moving out of the square I threatened 10' away via the reach of the Spiked Chain) I took an AOO on him, and killed him also. And since I've also purchased Combat Reflexes, should additional Monks have decided to close with me, I could have taken up to 3 more AOO based on my 17 DEX. This gives me a hypothetical total attack count of 7 in any given melee round. Once for my single attack at 3rd level, 1 for Cleave, and 4 for AOO. For the record, I've never yet seen any benefit from Combat Reflexes, having never had an opportunity to take a second AOO in any given melee round. But the potential is there, and it makes my character look extremely potent in melee. Which is exactly my intent. I'm a melee specialized character, it'd be hard for me to not be good at it unless I chose a pile of Weapon Focus Feats and Feats such as Endurance and Agile. This was just 1 round of an 8 round combat, and it was my best run of luck throughout. It seemed over the top to Landshark, even though I explained that it did require good hit rolls, good damage rolls, and that I had to spend 3 Feats (EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, Cleave) to even have the chance to accomplish the deed. Regardless of the seeming potency, I believed and I still believe that the rules were being followed. The Charge maneuver states, in part: Attacking on a Charge After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent. Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge. I believe that the portion reading "Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge" is both poorly written and redundant to the same rule written far more clearly elsewhere. Charge is a Full-Round action. Full attack is a Full-Round action. The two already can not be combined in a single round, and the text regarding the additional attacks is a poorly written reference to that restriction. The rules for Full-Round actions already spells out that limitation very unambiguously: Full-Round Actions A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. If the text was considered necessary in the description of Charge, rather than listing two examples of Full Attack actions (taking additional attacks based on BAB, or taking additional attacks based on Two-Weapon fighting) and saying "such as", leaving open some unnecessary ambiguity, the text should instead have referred to the restrictions on Full-Round actions.
Jackmojo 03-05-08, 06:44 PM	A but see, you should have been a Lion totem Barbarian from Complete Champion and then you'd have pounce and could full attack on a charge...then you'd need two weapon fighting for the chain too...whee! Jack P.S. You're following the rules fine as far as I read.
BugHunter 03-05-08, 08:17 PM	This gives me a hypothetical total attack count of 7 in any given melee round. Once for my single attack at 3rd level, 1 for Cleave, and 4 for AOO. Your base numbers are correct but 1+1+4=6 not 7. Don't forget the improved trip feat. I've used improved trip with combat reflexes and got a second AoO against the same target. 1st AoO caused by leaving threaten square trip attack successful. Get the free attack for damage at +4 to hit for the target being prone. 2nd AoO caused by target trying to stand up also at +4 to hit. Repeat as needed until out of AoOs.
Red_Wizards_Rock 03-05-08, 11:13 PM	Cleave attacks are not AoO's they are free attacks. If he has Great Cleave he can cleave all day long without using any of his AoO.
Kouk 03-06-08, 12:53 AM	You are basically correct AKA_Kompera, however I also count 6 attacks there :P As to whether that is "overpowered", yes and no. Mostly no. The trick is for the DM to know of all the ways to thwart such tactics while not thwarting them constantly. You did invest in this and should have it work most of the time. Also remembering that movement by a creature only provokes the one time, so even if you take your AoO on an approaching enemy, if you don't drop him (or Trip him) he can run around you as much as he wants. It is only overpowered when the DM does not expect it, which is true for most anything a character does, in my experience :D I recommend that Landshark look up some threads about dealing with Spiked Chain using characters, there are lots of ways to fight against such a character, so many that I don't want to start listing them again :P EDIT: And in addition, this tactic pretty much caps out by level 5 or 6 when you get all the feats. Compared to classes such as full casters and Tome of Battle guys, who will continually improve. It is an unfortunate reality of 3.x that Core melee classes hit a "glassteel ceiling".
Howie23 03-06-08, 01:09 AM	I could have taken up to 3 more AOO based on my 17 DEX. This gives me a hypothetical total attack count of 7 in any given melee round. Once for my single attack at 3rd level, 1 for Cleave, and 4 for AOO. . Edit: I've been corrected; you can only Cleave once per round. My bad. Others have pointed out that 4+1+1=6, not 7. However, it's moot; you're shorting your hypothetical output. You can Cleave on the the AoOs, also. So, your output is 4 AoO, 1 attack, and 5 cleaves for a total of 10. For example, after killing the charging third monk, you could have taken a Cleave on a fourth monk if one was within reach, or pounded on the ones already downed to keep 'em down. Any DM should develop an understanding, talking with you, if necessary, of the tactics associated with reach attacks and overcoming. It doesn't mean that he should regularly use them, but those NPCs who have options and reasonable knowledge of what they are facing should make use of those options. David
BugHunter 03-06-08, 09:10 AM	Others have pointed out that 4+1+1=6, not 7. However, it's moot; you're shorting your hypothetical output. You can Cleave on the the AoOs, also. So, your output is 4 AoO, 1 attack, and 5 cleaves for a total of 10. He only has cleave which allows for one extra attack per round so no 5 cleaves in the round. If you have great cleave then it can be used on each AoO.
AKA_Kompera 03-10-08, 11:24 AM	But, but, but.... 1 + 1 + 4 does equal 7, for sufficiently small values of 7. ;) Ok, thanks for the correction. What do you expect from a dumb Barbarian? Thanks for the rules clarifications, everyone who posted a reply. Greatly appreciated. To those suggesting Feats such as Great Cleave, Improved Trip (which requires Combat Expertise), etc, please remember that I'm 3rd level. :) Even as a Human I've got only 4 Feats to spend. Power Attack, Cleave, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes, and I'm tapped out. Some of those other Feats may come later, but Great Cleave not so much. If I'm facing multiple opponents and I can expect to kill several of them in a single round, I don't think I need to spend a Feat to kill them faster. To Jackmo, who suggested Pounce and TWF, I plead confusion. I understand the benefits of Pounce, but our group doesn't use the Comp. Champion. And the Spiked Chain is a 2HW, so there's no using TWF with it as a M sized Human.
Jackmojo 03-10-08, 11:55 AM	To Jackmo, who suggested Pounce and TWF, I plead confusion. I understand the benefits of Pounce, but our group doesn't use the Comp. Champion. And the Spiked Chain is a 2HW, so there's no using TWF with it as a M sized Human. Sorry, for some reason I was thinking a spiked chain was a double weapon, must be watching too many kung fu movies where they fight with both ends of a chain whip. Too bad about the pounce, you should buy your GM a present for Easter or something, since he works so hard to run a good game and all, maybe a shiny new DnD book... ;) Jack
Howie23 03-10-08, 02:53 PM	He only has cleave which allows for one extra attack per round so no 5 cleaves in the round. If you have great cleave then it can be used on each AoO. "You can use this ability once per round." My bad. Thanks for the correction.
BugHunter 03-10-08, 08:08 PM	To those suggesting Feats such as Great Cleave, Improved Trip (which requires Combat Expertise), etc, please remember that I'm 3rd level. :) Even as a Human I've got only 4 Feats to spend. Power Attack, Cleave, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes, and I'm tapped out. Some of those other Feats may come later, but Great Cleave not so much. If I'm facing multiple opponents and I can expect to kill several of them in a single round, I don't think I need to spend a Feat to kill them faster. A two level dip into fighter will get you improved trip. The level dips into fighter doesn't hurt to much, it just depends what kind of a build you want.
Amtekoth2 03-19-08, 08:11 PM	Maybe this has been answered before, but do you get multiple attacks at the end of a charge with Shock Trooper or Slashing Flurry?