Charisma? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Charisma? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TanglePython
12-04-07, 03:33 PM I wansn't sure were to post this thread... but here we go....

I'm pretty sure complete scoundrel goes over this, and there are probably many threads too, but my concern regards the ability score charisma. Charisma is an ability that is not used much and neglected. Most characters do not need a high charisma and lower it just to pump up their other ability scores. Is there anything that could compromise for this?
Bloodsoul
12-04-07, 04:00 PM Oddly enough, most of the abilities used by the gods are Charisma based; that doesn't effect the average player, but it's atleast something to think about.

Otherwise only thing that comes to mind (aside from a couple of Skills and certain Spell Progressions) are the Paladin/Blackguard abilities to add Cha mod to Saves, and of course Turning/Rebuking Undead (how often do people use that?).
LSMFT
12-04-07, 04:10 PM I'm pretty sure complete scoundrel goes over this, and there are probably many threads too, but my concern regards the ability score charisma. Charisma is an ability that is not used much and neglected. Most characters do not need a high charisma and lower it just to pump up their other ability scores. Is there anything that could compromise for this?Some classes benefit from dumping Cha. Many others don't.
Clerics, bards, sorcerers, paladins. All of them should have at least a decent Cha. Many rogues want it too.

If all your PCs dump it, I first have to ask, "So what?" Is it hurting the game? Is everyone still having fun?

If you feel the need to encourage your PCs to have a decent Cha, include encounters that require the use of social skills.
Pentagram
12-04-07, 04:11 PM Charisma, and the skills keyed to Charisma, are somewhat necessary when you have social dealings. As long as a campaign focus mainly on dungeoncrawling or similar, there isn't much incentive for the players to boost their charisma, especially when a well-placed enchantment spell can solve the most pressing needs.

If you want to promote Charisma, make sure that the characters end up in situations where natural charms, social skills, and good looks actually count. A barmaid might be inclined to offer some information to a handsome adventurer for free while his brutish friends have to roll natural 20s for Gather Information checks and spend a lesser fortune simply to find their way to a decent tavern. If success with Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information or the ability to mingle without making a fool of yourself has actual rewards in the game, the players will be more inclined to consider high, or at least above average, Charisma an asset.
InkBlot
12-04-07, 04:11 PM I guess you're using point-buy for stat generation? My group and I always roll for stats, so we don't usually see this problem (rolling for stats rarely produces a cripplingly bad stat).

First off, I have to wonder why you see charisma dumping as so much of a problem. If it's making their other stats too high, then set a minimum Charisma score (6 or 8) and/or lower the number of points they get to allocate to their stats.

Encouraging your players to roleplay their stats would help a lot, but you can't force people to roleplay well. Luckily, that's what skill checks and NPCs are for. Every time the low-Cha characters meet an NPC, roleplay that NPCs reaction to the character's rude antisocial attitude. Every time the PCs want something from an NPC, call for a Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy check. Everytime the PCs enter an inn looking for information, have them roll Gather Information checks. Eventually they'll get the idea that Charisma is important to the business of adventuring. You can't expect everybody to have a Charisma of 16 or even 12, but if you're persistant enough then your players will figure out that it's a bad idea for everyone to have a Charisma of 6 or 8.

You could also encourage the use of Charisma based classes. Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers, Wilders, Binders, Crusaders, et cetera. Maybe give out a freebie spell-like ability (chosen by you) to each character, the power of which is based on Charisma score. Then make sure you let your players get good use out of their Charisma scores in NPC interactions (see previous paragraph).

Charisma is important in D&D 3.5, but it's easy to gloss over the rules that make it so.
TanglePython
12-04-07, 04:11 PM Yes but those are things can only be used depending on ur class. Here ill give u an example. My character has the following stats... he is a scout 5/ rogue 3, abilities: 12, 16, 12, 10, 14, 12. Our party group decided to make a d&d campaign as close to what we are in real life. I in real life am not the smartest of people, etc, and haven proven my chrisma over the years. But as a scout/ rogue, it would be dumb to have a higher charisma score than intelligence, considering that higher int will give me more skills, and also that i do not have charisma based skills. So in this situation, i want to do something that will even this out.
TanglePython
12-04-07, 04:20 PM Also ontop of this, another player is a character with high charisma (as he is in real life), and many of his skills are charisma based, therefore he is ususally the talker of the group. My charisma is average, and not as high as his, and would be pointless to invest in skills that someone in the group is already good at. So thats y i would like to create an additional bonus to the table that will benefit me and other PC's that have a decent charisma, but burdened by it because are not skilled in charisma based skills or are of a class that needs charisma (knight or paladin for example).
Wheldrake
12-04-07, 04:22 PM Encouraging your players to roleplay their stats would help a lot, but you can't force people to roleplay well. Luckily, that's what skill checks and NPCs are for. Every time the low-Cha characters meet an NPC, roleplay that NPCs reaction to the character's rude antisocial attitude. Every time the PCs want something from an NPC, call for a Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy check. Everytime the PCs enter an inn looking for information, have them roll Gather Information checks. Eventually they'll get the idea that Charisma is important to the business of adventuring. You can't expect everybody to have a Charisma of 16 or even 12, but if you're persistant enough then your players will figure out that it's a bad idea for everyone to have a Charisma of 6 or 8.

I agree completely. In my campaign, players make skill checks based on charisma more often than any rolls except for pure combat. They're constantly trying to find new information and trying to negociate for better deals, better prices for resold goods, better arrangement with patrons, better relations with NPCs that they really don't want to make enemies of.

Depending on your DMing style, CHA can be a throwaway stat, or an essential stat.

YMMV, --- Wheldrake
LSMFT
12-04-07, 05:20 PM Yes but those are things can only be used depending on ur class. Here ill give u an example. My character has the following stats... he is a scout 5/ rogue 3, abilities: 12, 16, 12, 10, 14, 12. Our party group decided to make a d&d campaign as close to what we are in real life. I in real life am not the smartest of people, etc, and haven proven my chrisma over the years. But as a scout/ rogue, it would be dumb to have a higher charisma score than intelligence, considering that higher int will give me more skills, and also that i do not have charisma based skills. So in this situation, i want to do something that will even this out.
OK, well, you have a very weird situation.

In real life, you are more charismatic than intelligent.
In game, you are trying to play a class that relies more on intelligence than charisma.

As long as you are trying to role-play your real-life abilities, wouldn’t it be better to pick a class that relied on your strengths?

That seems easier to me than trying to rewrite Charisma.
BaelinWhale
12-04-07, 11:44 PM I encountered this same problem early on in my game and rectified it with the following house rule that makes Charisma a more well-rounded and valuable ability: (Note that this is only recommended for Character Stats generated using Point Buy).

CHARISMA: (Clarification) Charisma is a measure of a character’s force of personality, willpower, creativity, and communicative ability.
• Charisma Bonus to Saving Throws: (New) Add one-half your Charisma modifier (rounded down if positive and rounded up if negative) as a bonus to all your saving throws. Charisma is a combination of courage, confidence and creativity. As such, a charismatic individual is more likely to prevail against difficult situations. This effect does not stack with the bonuses provided by divine grace and other similar abilities.

At the same time, we also implemented another house rule to circumvent the logic and RP issues of how high Charisma individuals are always damn good looking (So, what's a handsome nelfeshnee like you doing in a place like this?).

COMELINESS: (New) Comeliness is a separate ability score with a range anywhere between 3 (Hideous) to 18 (Gorgeous) that is primarily used to determine first impressions. More than being just a measure of physical attractiveness, Comeliness represents various factors that affect first impressions, such as a character’s allure, bearing and social grace. Depending on circumstance, it may complement or even substitute Charisma for certain Ability and Skill checks.
Unlike other ability scores which are purchased through Point Buy, Comeliness is rolled randomly using 3d6. You have the option to discard the first roll and try again but you must take the second roll’s result, whatever it may be. Any bonus that modifies a character’s Charisma also affects Comeliness. The maximum cap for Comeliness is 20 (+5 modifier).

Hope these help.
teshen
12-05-07, 12:08 AM I encountered this same problem early on in my game and rectified it with the following house rule that makes Charisma a more well-rounded and valuable ability . . .
It sounds like you are dividing Charisma into two stats: Appearance and Personality. If you're doing that, it's too easy to justify dividing the other stats into two different stats like AD&D had the option near the end supplements. Dexterity could become Agility and Coordination for natural grace verses fine manipulation. Intelligence could become Memory and Creativity. And so on...

I kind of like your idea, but I feel that instead of simplifying things, you have an additional level of complication
JulesCARV
12-05-07, 02:16 AM Well, I made up narrative magic feats (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=810633), which basically allow you to use your charisma in a variety of situations.
NoldorForce
12-05-07, 02:24 AM I will note that despite the fact that Charisma has relatively few apparent uses, it has the largest quantity of class features and so forth that grant it as a bonus to something else (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889) by far.

On that particular list, the physical ability scores in total take up a bit less than one page. Intelligence and Wisdom each take up half a page. Charisma takes up, oh, an entire page (plus a bit more) on its own. There are twelve different variants on Divine Grace alone.
Wheldrake
12-05-07, 06:35 AM I will note that despite the fact that Charisma has relatively few apparent uses, ...

Again, this is only true if you attack everything you meet and you avoid all social interaction. Social situations are great roleplaying opportunities, and a charisma-based skill check will often spell the difference between success and failure when social interaction reaches critical decision points.

And of course, as Noldorforce's list proves, there are many situations where charisma *does* have a direct impact on combat.

YMMV, --- Wheldrake
Rustmonster
12-06-07, 09:36 AM I guess you're using point-buy for stat generation? My group and I always roll for stats, so we don't usually see this problem (rolling for stats rarely produces a cripplingly bad stat).

First off, I have to wonder why you see charisma dumping as so much of a problem. If it's making their other stats too high, then set a minimum Charisma score (6 or 8) and/or lower the number of points they get to allocate to their stats.

Just to point out, point buy has a minimum score of 8. You get that for fre, and then you buy up from there. I'm guessing you thought you could take, say, a 3 in it and have uber amounts of points for other stuff (correct me if I'm wrong). I like point buy, as it makes characters who are more balanced in a party, although rolling for stats is also very fun.

EDIT: Actually, that's another thing I like about the point buy system. You CAN'T have abysmal scores in things like you can in rolled stats. Before racial mods, the minimum mod is -1.
Tordak
12-06-07, 12:05 PM Yes, Charisma is a dump stat. Most class don't benefit much from it, and it's no surprise people try to raise other stats at the expense of cha. It all depends what you want to play. If you're a cleric, paladin, hexblade, sorcerer (and other charisma dependant caster), marshall, dragon shaman or bard (and of course many prestige class), charisma will help. It's also a very good stat if your game is an urban one, one stat you won't want to neglect. Rogue often can make use of charisma, but more in urban settings than in a dungeon. Also, bluff relies on charisma, so it's usefull to feint in combat. I know it sucks, but the experience system of D&D rewards fighting more than anything else, and charisma is not as useful in combat situation. But there are way to make it worth it.
Brehon
12-06-07, 01:39 PM Low Cha can leave you vulnerable in combat as well. Anyone who has a way of inflicting Cha damage can put you of the fight with relative ease. In my group's last session, we fought a Cinder Wraith (I'm pretty sure that's what is was anyway). Much to our chagrin, the Cinder Wraith deals 1d6 Cha damage everytime it hits. Our Lvl 7 Warforged Warblade (Cha 6) went down in two hits, taking our big melee beater out of the fight. Our Lvl 7 Warforged Transmuter (Cha 6) went down right after that (only 1 hit, IIRC). Fortunately, our Fighter/Ranger (Cha 8) managed to pincushion him during those rounds which, coupled with the one or two damage spells the transmuter fired off, brought him down. Our Dwarf Cleric (Cha 6) stayed as far away from him as possible during the fight and had his spellcasting shut off by a pair of Quells to boot.
There are also poisons that inflict Charisma damage and a few spells as well. It is something to be aware of, as some DMs might tailor a few challenges every now and then to target that exact weakness.
sapient
12-06-07, 05:37 PM [...] If all your PCs dump it, I first have to ask, "So what?" Is it hurting the game? Is everyone still having fun?[...]

He he he... I just imagined a high level party of very low Cha-individuals. All of them are shy, socialy inept and tend to be a bit brusque. Their looks are indistinguished, bland and pedestrian.

They are probably the most acomplished adventuring party of their continent - but no one ever seem to remember them.

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TanglePython 12-04-07, 03:33 PM	I wansn't sure were to post this thread... but here we go.... I'm pretty sure complete scoundrel goes over this, and there are probably many threads too, but my concern regards the ability score charisma. Charisma is an ability that is not used much and neglected. Most characters do not need a high charisma and lower it just to pump up their other ability scores. Is there anything that could compromise for this?
Bloodsoul 12-04-07, 04:00 PM	Oddly enough, most of the abilities used by the gods are Charisma based; that doesn't effect the average player, but it's atleast something to think about. Otherwise only thing that comes to mind (aside from a couple of Skills and certain Spell Progressions) are the Paladin/Blackguard abilities to add Cha mod to Saves, and of course Turning/Rebuking Undead (how often do people use that?).
LSMFT 12-04-07, 04:10 PM	I'm pretty sure complete scoundrel goes over this, and there are probably many threads too, but my concern regards the ability score charisma. Charisma is an ability that is not used much and neglected. Most characters do not need a high charisma and lower it just to pump up their other ability scores. Is there anything that could compromise for this?Some classes benefit from dumping Cha. Many others don't. Clerics, bards, sorcerers, paladins. All of them should have at least a decent Cha. Many rogues want it too. If all your PCs dump it, I first have to ask, "So what?" Is it hurting the game? Is everyone still having fun? If you feel the need to encourage your PCs to have a decent Cha, include encounters that require the use of social skills.
Pentagram 12-04-07, 04:11 PM	Charisma, and the skills keyed to Charisma, are somewhat necessary when you have social dealings. As long as a campaign focus mainly on dungeoncrawling or similar, there isn't much incentive for the players to boost their charisma, especially when a well-placed enchantment spell can solve the most pressing needs. If you want to promote Charisma, make sure that the characters end up in situations where natural charms, social skills, and good looks actually count. A barmaid might be inclined to offer some information to a handsome adventurer for free while his brutish friends have to roll natural 20s for Gather Information checks and spend a lesser fortune simply to find their way to a decent tavern. If success with Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information or the ability to mingle without making a fool of yourself has actual rewards in the game, the players will be more inclined to consider high, or at least above average, Charisma an asset.
InkBlot 12-04-07, 04:11 PM	I guess you're using point-buy for stat generation? My group and I always roll for stats, so we don't usually see this problem (rolling for stats rarely produces a cripplingly bad stat). First off, I have to wonder why you see charisma dumping as so much of a problem. If it's making their other stats too high, then set a minimum Charisma score (6 or 8) and/or lower the number of points they get to allocate to their stats. Encouraging your players to roleplay their stats would help a lot, but you can't force people to roleplay well. Luckily, that's what skill checks and NPCs are for. Every time the low-Cha characters meet an NPC, roleplay that NPCs reaction to the character's rude antisocial attitude. Every time the PCs want something from an NPC, call for a Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy check. Everytime the PCs enter an inn looking for information, have them roll Gather Information checks. Eventually they'll get the idea that Charisma is important to the business of adventuring. You can't expect everybody to have a Charisma of 16 or even 12, but if you're persistant enough then your players will figure out that it's a bad idea for everyone to have a Charisma of 6 or 8. You could also encourage the use of Charisma based classes. Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers, Wilders, Binders, Crusaders, et cetera. Maybe give out a freebie spell-like ability (chosen by you) to each character, the power of which is based on Charisma score. Then make sure you let your players get good use out of their Charisma scores in NPC interactions (see previous paragraph). Charisma is important in D&D 3.5, but it's easy to gloss over the rules that make it so.
TanglePython 12-04-07, 04:11 PM	Yes but those are things can only be used depending on ur class. Here ill give u an example. My character has the following stats... he is a scout 5/ rogue 3, abilities: 12, 16, 12, 10, 14, 12. Our party group decided to make a d&d campaign as close to what we are in real life. I in real life am not the smartest of people, etc, and haven proven my chrisma over the years. But as a scout/ rogue, it would be dumb to have a higher charisma score than intelligence, considering that higher int will give me more skills, and also that i do not have charisma based skills. So in this situation, i want to do something that will even this out.
TanglePython 12-04-07, 04:20 PM	Also ontop of this, another player is a character with high charisma (as he is in real life), and many of his skills are charisma based, therefore he is ususally the talker of the group. My charisma is average, and not as high as his, and would be pointless to invest in skills that someone in the group is already good at. So thats y i would like to create an additional bonus to the table that will benefit me and other PC's that have a decent charisma, but burdened by it because are not skilled in charisma based skills or are of a class that needs charisma (knight or paladin for example).
Wheldrake 12-04-07, 04:22 PM	Encouraging your players to roleplay their stats would help a lot, but you can't force people to roleplay well. Luckily, that's what skill checks and NPCs are for. Every time the low-Cha characters meet an NPC, roleplay that NPCs reaction to the character's rude antisocial attitude. Every time the PCs want something from an NPC, call for a Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy check. Everytime the PCs enter an inn looking for information, have them roll Gather Information checks. Eventually they'll get the idea that Charisma is important to the business of adventuring. You can't expect everybody to have a Charisma of 16 or even 12, but if you're persistant enough then your players will figure out that it's a bad idea for everyone to have a Charisma of 6 or 8. I agree completely. In my campaign, players make skill checks based on charisma more often than any rolls except for pure combat. They're constantly trying to find new information and trying to negociate for better deals, better prices for resold goods, better arrangement with patrons, better relations with NPCs that they really don't want to make enemies of. Depending on your DMing style, CHA can be a throwaway stat, or an essential stat. YMMV, --- Wheldrake
LSMFT 12-04-07, 05:20 PM	Yes but those are things can only be used depending on ur class. Here ill give u an example. My character has the following stats... he is a scout 5/ rogue 3, abilities: 12, 16, 12, 10, 14, 12. Our party group decided to make a d&d campaign as close to what we are in real life. I in real life am not the smartest of people, etc, and haven proven my chrisma over the years. But as a scout/ rogue, it would be dumb to have a higher charisma score than intelligence, considering that higher int will give me more skills, and also that i do not have charisma based skills. So in this situation, i want to do something that will even this out. OK, well, you have a very weird situation. In real life, you are more charismatic than intelligent. In game, you are trying to play a class that relies more on intelligence than charisma. As long as you are trying to role-play your real-life abilities, wouldn’t it be better to pick a class that relied on your strengths? That seems easier to me than trying to rewrite Charisma.
BaelinWhale 12-04-07, 11:44 PM	I encountered this same problem early on in my game and rectified it with the following house rule that makes Charisma a more well-rounded and valuable ability: (Note that this is only recommended for Character Stats generated using Point Buy). CHARISMA: (Clarification) Charisma is a measure of a character’s force of personality, willpower, creativity, and communicative ability. • Charisma Bonus to Saving Throws: (New) Add one-half your Charisma modifier (rounded down if positive and rounded up if negative) as a bonus to all your saving throws. Charisma is a combination of courage, confidence and creativity. As such, a charismatic individual is more likely to prevail against difficult situations. This effect does not stack with the bonuses provided by divine grace and other similar abilities. At the same time, we also implemented another house rule to circumvent the logic and RP issues of how high Charisma individuals are always damn good looking (So, what's a handsome nelfeshnee like you doing in a place like this?). COMELINESS: (New) Comeliness is a separate ability score with a range anywhere between 3 (Hideous) to 18 (Gorgeous) that is primarily used to determine first impressions. More than being just a measure of physical attractiveness, Comeliness represents various factors that affect first impressions, such as a character’s allure, bearing and social grace. Depending on circumstance, it may complement or even substitute Charisma for certain Ability and Skill checks. Unlike other ability scores which are purchased through Point Buy, Comeliness is rolled randomly using 3d6. You have the option to discard the first roll and try again but you must take the second roll’s result, whatever it may be. Any bonus that modifies a character’s Charisma also affects Comeliness. The maximum cap for Comeliness is 20 (+5 modifier). Hope these help.
teshen 12-05-07, 12:08 AM	I encountered this same problem early on in my game and rectified it with the following house rule that makes Charisma a more well-rounded and valuable ability . . . It sounds like you are dividing Charisma into two stats: Appearance and Personality. If you're doing that, it's too easy to justify dividing the other stats into two different stats like AD&D had the option near the end supplements. Dexterity could become Agility and Coordination for natural grace verses fine manipulation. Intelligence could become Memory and Creativity. And so on... I kind of like your idea, but I feel that instead of simplifying things, you have an additional level of complication
JulesCARV 12-05-07, 02:16 AM	Well, I made up narrative magic feats (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=810633), which basically allow you to use your charisma in a variety of situations.
NoldorForce 12-05-07, 02:24 AM	I will note that despite the fact that Charisma has relatively few apparent uses, it has the largest quantity of class features and so forth that grant it as a bonus to something else (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889) by far. On that particular list, the physical ability scores in total take up a bit less than one page. Intelligence and Wisdom each take up half a page. Charisma takes up, oh, an entire page (plus a bit more) on its own. There are twelve different variants on Divine Grace alone.
Wheldrake 12-05-07, 06:35 AM	I will note that despite the fact that Charisma has relatively few apparent uses, ... Again, this is only true if you attack everything you meet and you avoid all social interaction. Social situations are great roleplaying opportunities, and a charisma-based skill check will often spell the difference between success and failure when social interaction reaches critical decision points. And of course, as Noldorforce's list proves, there are many situations where charisma does have a direct impact on combat. YMMV, --- Wheldrake
Rustmonster 12-06-07, 09:36 AM	I guess you're using point-buy for stat generation? My group and I always roll for stats, so we don't usually see this problem (rolling for stats rarely produces a cripplingly bad stat). First off, I have to wonder why you see charisma dumping as so much of a problem. If it's making their other stats too high, then set a minimum Charisma score (6 or 8) and/or lower the number of points they get to allocate to their stats. Just to point out, point buy has a minimum score of 8. You get that for fre, and then you buy up from there. I'm guessing you thought you could take, say, a 3 in it and have uber amounts of points for other stuff (correct me if I'm wrong). I like point buy, as it makes characters who are more balanced in a party, although rolling for stats is also very fun. EDIT: Actually, that's another thing I like about the point buy system. You CAN'T have abysmal scores in things like you can in rolled stats. Before racial mods, the minimum mod is -1.
Tordak 12-06-07, 12:05 PM	Yes, Charisma is a dump stat. Most class don't benefit much from it, and it's no surprise people try to raise other stats at the expense of cha. It all depends what you want to play. If you're a cleric, paladin, hexblade, sorcerer (and other charisma dependant caster), marshall, dragon shaman or bard (and of course many prestige class), charisma will help. It's also a very good stat if your game is an urban one, one stat you won't want to neglect. Rogue often can make use of charisma, but more in urban settings than in a dungeon. Also, bluff relies on charisma, so it's usefull to feint in combat. I know it sucks, but the experience system of D&D rewards fighting more than anything else, and charisma is not as useful in combat situation. But there are way to make it worth it.
Brehon 12-06-07, 01:39 PM	Low Cha can leave you vulnerable in combat as well. Anyone who has a way of inflicting Cha damage can put you of the fight with relative ease. In my group's last session, we fought a Cinder Wraith (I'm pretty sure that's what is was anyway). Much to our chagrin, the Cinder Wraith deals 1d6 Cha damage everytime it hits. Our Lvl 7 Warforged Warblade (Cha 6) went down in two hits, taking our big melee beater out of the fight. Our Lvl 7 Warforged Transmuter (Cha 6) went down right after that (only 1 hit, IIRC). Fortunately, our Fighter/Ranger (Cha 8) managed to pincushion him during those rounds which, coupled with the one or two damage spells the transmuter fired off, brought him down. Our Dwarf Cleric (Cha 6) stayed as far away from him as possible during the fight and had his spellcasting shut off by a pair of Quells to boot. There are also poisons that inflict Charisma damage and a few spells as well. It is something to be aware of, as some DMs might tailor a few challenges every now and then to target that exact weakness.
sapient 12-06-07, 05:37 PM	[...] If all your PCs dump it, I first have to ask, "So what?" Is it hurting the game? Is everyone still having fun?[...] He he he... I just imagined a high level party of very low Cha-individuals. All of them are shy, socialy inept and tend to be a bit brusque. Their looks are indistinguished, bland and pedestrian. They are probably the most acomplished adventuring party of their continent - but no one ever seem to remember them. :D