Clarification on concentration check for wizards after damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clarification on concentration check for wizards after damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tigg75
06-02-07, 10:51 AM There has been some discussion in my gaming group about how to apply the concentration check after damage for spell casters.
One line of thought is that the only time that you have to make a concentration check for damage is either when your spell casting time is a full round or longer or you have to have someone hold their action until the spell caster casts his spell and then attack him simultaneously when he is using a spell that has a casting time of a standard action.
The other line of thought is that all the damage that is taken in the round up until the time of the attempt to cast adds to the difficulty of the spell regardless of spell length.
Thought as to how the rules should be interpreted would be most helpful to end this discussion.
Matthew77
06-02-07, 11:01 AM One line of thought is that the only time that you have to make a concentration check for damage is either when your spell casting time is a full round or longer or you have to have someone hold their action until the spell caster casts his spell and then attack him simultaneously when he is using a spell that has a casting time of a standard action.

These are the 3.5 official rules.
Another way to make a caster roll a concentration check is if you get an Attack of Opportunity in response to them casting a spell.

Feel free to make house rules if you like them better.

In 3.5, (unlike 1st edition), it is very difficult to stop a spellcaster from getting off a spell by hitting him with weapon damage.

Between 5' steps, casting defensively, and maxed out concentration skills, I've only seen casters lose spells to weapon damage on extremely rare occasions.
JLaurHughes
06-02-07, 11:40 AM Order of resolution for: Casting a spell(casting time greater than free action to cast). This is as I have always understood the skill check to be.

Example 1:
Caster Initiates spell casting: say a spell that takes a full rounds like fireball.
Crossbowman seeing that the caster is making motions aims and fires(Readied action).
Caster gets hit, must ignore pain caused by crossbow bolt(We'll say 4 points of damage) Makes the concentration check requred a DC 14.
Wizard PC rolls the check, succeeds, spell casting continues and spell is completed.

Example 2:
Caster initiates spellcasting: Again spell that requires full round like fireball.
Multiple crossbowmen(we'll say 3 with readied actions), tasked with covering the spell caster, notice spell being cast and fire simultaniously.
Caster gets hit: this time for a combined total damage of 15. This makes the concentration DC 25 instead.
Caster does not make the concentration check in this case: loses the spell. Depending on DM the loss of spell could have side effects like additional damage based on spell level/(0-1 = 1d4, 2-3 2d4 etc.)

Damage dealt needs to be resolved prior to the spell completion. Above examples assume a Wizard/sorcerer able to cast 3rd level spells.
Obi-Wan Shinobi
06-02-07, 12:24 PM some issues with JLaurHughes explanation (he/she might be using houserules???) :

1) fireball is NOT a full-round spell- it is a standard action to cast fireball- this does not have any affect on the rest of the question however :)

2) when taking damage while casting a spell, the concentration check is increased by the level of the spell- in this case, +3 to the DC.

3) you make a check for each time you take damage- you do not add up all the damage taken by different attackers and make one concentration check at a higher DC. so in the second example JLaurHughes gave- the caster would have to make 3 concentration checks- each at 13+ the damage taken.

but to the OP- a concentration check must be made if while CASTING the spell the caster takes damage- so if it is a full-round or 1 round spell, every hit he takes forces a check at 10+ spell level of the spell being cast+ the damage taken per hit.

while casting a standard action spell, the only way to have to make a concentration check is if you cast within a threatened area (cast defensively or take a 5' step back :) ) or if an opponent readied an action to attack you when you begin casting a spell. and again, the DC would be 10+ the spells' level+ the damage taken.

on any concentration check made while spell casting- failure indicates the spell failed. as such, the spell fizzles and you wasted your round and your spell :)
JLaurHughes
06-02-07, 07:20 PM some issues with JLaurHughes explanation (he/she might be using houserules???) :
I'm not factoring in the spell level. And this is my rule of thumb to remember it.

1) fireball is NOT a full-round spell- it is a standard action to cast fireball- this does not have any affect on the rest of the question however :)
It's still greater than a swift/free action, and provokes an attack if there is someone threatening you as you cast or has readied an action for your casting. The examples I gave are readied actions.

2) when taking damage while casting a spell, the concentration check is increased by the level of the spell- in this case, +3 to the DC.
As mentioned earlier, I'm using a rule of thumb to help me remember the check itself.

3) you make a check for each time you take damage- you do not add up all the damage taken by different attackers and make one concentration check at a higher DC. so in the second example JLaurHughes gave- the caster would have to make 3 concentration checks- each at 13+ the damage taken.
point me to where you have read this because I read through everything about the concentration check I can find, and nowhere did I see this point.

but to the OP- a concentration check must be made if while CASTING the spell the caster takes damage- so if it is a full-round or 1 round spell, every hit he takes forces a check at 10+ spell level of the spell being cast+ the damage taken per hit.

while casting a standard action spell, the only way to have to make a concentration check is if you cast within a threatened area (cast defensively or take a 5' step back :) ) or if an opponent readied an action to attack you when you begin casting a spell. and again, the DC would be 10+ the spells' level+ the damage taken.

on any concentration check made while spell casting- failure indicates the spell failed. as such, the spell fizzles and you wasted your round and your spell :)
This I don't disagree with except for the damage taken while casting a spell. It's just a differing way of reading it I would guess since I don't really see anywhere that it states "for each source;" I do see for continuous damage on consecutive rounds though.
Merestil Haye
06-03-07, 04:51 AM point me to where you have read this because I read through everything about the concentration check I can find, and nowhere did I see this point.Creatures in D&D never act simultaneously. If you have three creatures all acting on the same initiative, the rules say you break the tie. If the results are still the same, you roll dice.

Since this involves readied actions, these archers are taking their regular turns at an amended initiative. You set the order they act in. If they're all the same it doesn't matter which goes when; but you fully resolve each creature's turn before going on to the next. That includes side effects of damage dealt.
Airos
06-03-07, 06:59 AM point me to where you have read this because I read through everything about the concentration check I can find, and nowhere did I see this point.

Maybe this will help clear things up:

CONCENTRATION

To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.

Injury: If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).

If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you. Repeated damage does not count as continuous damage.
link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html)

(emphasis mine)

There is an example of continuous damage given in the rules for the concentration skill itself, with this note:

3 Such as from acid arrow. link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsCon.html)

Taking damage from more than once source during the round does not count as continuous damage, but instead as injury, thus it's one check per source.

Hope this helped.
Obi-Wan Shinobi
06-03-07, 09:26 AM and for further reference- in the Concentration skill description pg 70 PhB, last lines before the chart..

"if more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed concentration check jindicates that the task is not completed."

if one looks at the chart, there is no listing for taking multiple hits at one time. so in this case, each one is considered a single distraction, and each one requires a seperate Concentration check.

and JLaurHughes: again, unless you are using house rules, your "rule of thumb" is incorrect. by your rule use, the skill check DC is going to always be lower than it is supposed to, making it even easier for spellcasters to pass their checks.

and how would taking more than one hit at a time be considered continuous damage??? continuous damage is defined as

"damage from a single attack that continues to deal damage every round without the need for additional attack rolls." in your example, you are taking 3 hits, which required 3 attack rolls. not continuous damage. sorry........
JLaurHughes
06-03-07, 12:33 PM and for further reference- in the Concentration skill description pg 70 PhB, last lines before the chart..

"if more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed concentration check jindicates that the task is not completed."
Thank you, musta missed that.

and JLaurHughes: again, unless you are using house rules, your "rule of thumb" is incorrect. by your rule use, the skill check DC is going to always be lower than it is supposed to, making it even easier for spellcasters to pass their checks.
I am bloody well aware that the DC is lower than the spell....IT'S A RULE OF THUMB SO I REMEMBER WHAT TO ADD TOGETHER!!!! Geeze.

and how would taking more than one hit at a time be considered continuous damage??? continuous damage is defined as

"damage from a single attack that continues to deal damage every round without the need for additional attack rolls." in your example, you are taking 3 hits, which required 3 attack rolls. not continuous damage. sorry........
I am aware that it is not continuous damage, you misunderstood what I was pointing out. I thank you though for the reference to that line *points to the first part in the post* I missed that when I read the first dozen times somehow.
divide_by_zero
06-04-07, 12:31 AM Taking damage during the action is one *type* of distraction, so, according to the way I read it, only once check would need to be made for multiple hits taken.

I haven't decided which way I would go with on setting the DC though. Set the DC at 10 + Spell Level +

1) most damage dealt by a single of the multiple hits.

2) the sum of all the damage dealt.
Obi-Wan Shinobi
06-04-07, 10:14 AM so in this case then, you would also rule that multiple hits in a round are only reduced once by having DR??? or add up all the damage taken in a round by multiple sources of spell damage, lets say fireballs, and only reduce the damage once for having fire resistance??

its the same thing- one hit or 100 hits in a round each require a Concentration check just as each reduces the ammount of damage taken when using DR or resistances.

i can see where one can come up with adding all the damage together then setting the DC, but it all comes down to semantics. there are two ways one can read the following statement....

"if more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one"

1) the word one qualifies only the word type

or

2) the word one qualifies the phrase type of distraction

so in case 1, you would either decide all the different, SEPERATE types of distractions that occur during the round, and determine the DC's for each type, and make a Concentration check for each one. in this case, all damage taken during the round is one type.

or

in case 2, you decide each type of distraction that occured during the round and set the DC for each individual Concentration check. every single instance of a type of distraction forces the check.
tarkin
06-04-07, 01:14 PM Obi, part of what you are claiming fails the smell test.

Among other things, you seem to think that someone hit 10 times for 1 pt of damage each time, should have the same chance of failure as someone hit once for 1 pt.

It seems blatantly obvious to me that you need to add the damage up.
Obi-Wan Shinobi
06-04-07, 01:23 PM no- in that case they would have to make 10 different Concentration checks- one for each hit. so the chance for failure is 10 times someone who only has to make one check. all it takes is one failure and the action is wasted.

it may seem blatantly obvious to you, but it doesnt specifically say it either way (seperate rolls for each hit or add all the damage up and make one roll)- so it all depends on how one interprets the rule.............
sirkently
06-04-07, 07:48 PM I would say that you would make a roll for each hit. It doesn't pass the reality check for me to add them all up. For example, if someone sticks me with a pin in the rear, I am going to jump. If 5 people line up behind me to do the sticking in succession, I am not going to save them up for one big jump at the end, I will jump after each one. Similarly with wizards, as soon as someone sticks you, you jump, and must make a concentration check to save your spell. Once that damage is done, it doesn't have an ongoing effect in the game. You have recovered from that distraction. Someone else sticks you, you make another check and so on and so forth.

If you add all the damage together, what you are saying is that each attack before the last has had no effect except to add to the final total. For example, if the wizard is taking 5 attacks then he is sailing through 4 of them without a hitch, and the fifth can make him flinch. But if on the next round he is only taking 2 attacks he will flinch after the 2nd. If I were the wizard I would say wait a minute, I took 4 without flinching last time, whats with only being able to take one this time.

That is our explanation for why you need to make a check for each hit individually.
Pentar
06-04-07, 08:08 PM Given Merestil's indication (and correctly so) that creatures do not act simultaneously, I would say that each damage source needs to be rolled separately. If two creatures have readied actions against the spellcaster who begins a spell, each will strike separately based on their initiative modifier, or in the case of a tie, a random roll.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tigg75 06-02-07, 10:51 AM	There has been some discussion in my gaming group about how to apply the concentration check after damage for spell casters. One line of thought is that the only time that you have to make a concentration check for damage is either when your spell casting time is a full round or longer or you have to have someone hold their action until the spell caster casts his spell and then attack him simultaneously when he is using a spell that has a casting time of a standard action. The other line of thought is that all the damage that is taken in the round up until the time of the attempt to cast adds to the difficulty of the spell regardless of spell length. Thought as to how the rules should be interpreted would be most helpful to end this discussion.
Matthew77 06-02-07, 11:01 AM	One line of thought is that the only time that you have to make a concentration check for damage is either when your spell casting time is a full round or longer or you have to have someone hold their action until the spell caster casts his spell and then attack him simultaneously when he is using a spell that has a casting time of a standard action. These are the 3.5 official rules. Another way to make a caster roll a concentration check is if you get an Attack of Opportunity in response to them casting a spell. Feel free to make house rules if you like them better. In 3.5, (unlike 1st edition), it is very difficult to stop a spellcaster from getting off a spell by hitting him with weapon damage. Between 5' steps, casting defensively, and maxed out concentration skills, I've only seen casters lose spells to weapon damage on extremely rare occasions.
JLaurHughes 06-02-07, 11:40 AM	Order of resolution for: Casting a spell(casting time greater than free action to cast). This is as I have always understood the skill check to be. Example 1: Caster Initiates spell casting: say a spell that takes a full rounds like fireball. Crossbowman seeing that the caster is making motions aims and fires(Readied action). Caster gets hit, must ignore pain caused by crossbow bolt(We'll say 4 points of damage) Makes the concentration check requred a DC 14. Wizard PC rolls the check, succeeds, spell casting continues and spell is completed. Example 2: Caster initiates spellcasting: Again spell that requires full round like fireball. Multiple crossbowmen(we'll say 3 with readied actions), tasked with covering the spell caster, notice spell being cast and fire simultaniously. Caster gets hit: this time for a combined total damage of 15. This makes the concentration DC 25 instead. Caster does not make the concentration check in this case: loses the spell. Depending on DM the loss of spell could have side effects like additional damage based on spell level/(0-1 = 1d4, 2-3 2d4 etc.) Damage dealt needs to be resolved prior to the spell completion. Above examples assume a Wizard/sorcerer able to cast 3rd level spells.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 06-02-07, 12:24 PM	some issues with JLaurHughes explanation (he/she might be using houserules???) : 1) fireball is NOT a full-round spell- it is a standard action to cast fireball- this does not have any affect on the rest of the question however :) 2) when taking damage while casting a spell, the concentration check is increased by the level of the spell- in this case, +3 to the DC. 3) you make a check for each time you take damage- you do not add up all the damage taken by different attackers and make one concentration check at a higher DC. so in the second example JLaurHughes gave- the caster would have to make 3 concentration checks- each at 13+ the damage taken. but to the OP- a concentration check must be made if while CASTING the spell the caster takes damage- so if it is a full-round or 1 round spell, every hit he takes forces a check at 10+ spell level of the spell being cast+ the damage taken per hit. while casting a standard action spell, the only way to have to make a concentration check is if you cast within a threatened area (cast defensively or take a 5' step back :) ) or if an opponent readied an action to attack you when you begin casting a spell. and again, the DC would be 10+ the spells' level+ the damage taken. on any concentration check made while spell casting- failure indicates the spell failed. as such, the spell fizzles and you wasted your round and your spell :)
JLaurHughes 06-02-07, 07:20 PM	some issues with JLaurHughes explanation (he/she might be using houserules???) : I'm not factoring in the spell level. And this is my rule of thumb to remember it. 1) fireball is NOT a full-round spell- it is a standard action to cast fireball- this does not have any affect on the rest of the question however :) It's still greater than a swift/free action, and provokes an attack if there is someone threatening you as you cast or has readied an action for your casting. The examples I gave are readied actions. 2) when taking damage while casting a spell, the concentration check is increased by the level of the spell- in this case, +3 to the DC. As mentioned earlier, I'm using a rule of thumb to help me remember the check itself. 3) you make a check for each time you take damage- you do not add up all the damage taken by different attackers and make one concentration check at a higher DC. so in the second example JLaurHughes gave- the caster would have to make 3 concentration checks- each at 13+ the damage taken. point me to where you have read this because I read through everything about the concentration check I can find, and nowhere did I see this point. but to the OP- a concentration check must be made if while CASTING the spell the caster takes damage- so if it is a full-round or 1 round spell, every hit he takes forces a check at 10+ spell level of the spell being cast+ the damage taken per hit. while casting a standard action spell, the only way to have to make a concentration check is if you cast within a threatened area (cast defensively or take a 5' step back :) ) or if an opponent readied an action to attack you when you begin casting a spell. and again, the DC would be 10+ the spells' level+ the damage taken. on any concentration check made while spell casting- failure indicates the spell failed. as such, the spell fizzles and you wasted your round and your spell :) This I don't disagree with except for the damage taken while casting a spell. It's just a differing way of reading it I would guess since I don't really see anywhere that it states "for each source;" I do see for continuous damage on consecutive rounds though.
Merestil Haye 06-03-07, 04:51 AM	point me to where you have read this because I read through everything about the concentration check I can find, and nowhere did I see this point.Creatures in D&D never act simultaneously. If you have three creatures all acting on the same initiative, the rules say you break the tie. If the results are still the same, you roll dice. Since this involves readied actions, these archers are taking their regular turns at an amended initiative. You set the order they act in. If they're all the same it doesn't matter which goes when; but you fully resolve each creature's turn before going on to the next. That includes side effects of damage dealt.
Airos 06-03-07, 06:59 AM	point me to where you have read this because I read through everything about the concentration check I can find, and nowhere did I see this point. Maybe this will help clear things up: CONCENTRATION To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect. Injury: If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action). If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you. Repeated damage does not count as continuous damage. link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html) (emphasis mine) There is an example of continuous damage given in the rules for the concentration skill itself, with this note: 3 Such as from acid arrow. link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsCon.html) Taking damage from more than once source during the round does not count as continuous damage, but instead as injury, thus it's one check per source. Hope this helped.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 06-03-07, 09:26 AM	and for further reference- in the Concentration skill description pg 70 PhB, last lines before the chart.. "if more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed concentration check jindicates that the task is not completed." if one looks at the chart, there is no listing for taking multiple hits at one time. so in this case, each one is considered a single distraction, and each one requires a seperate Concentration check. and JLaurHughes: again, unless you are using house rules, your "rule of thumb" is incorrect. by your rule use, the skill check DC is going to always be lower than it is supposed to, making it even easier for spellcasters to pass their checks. and how would taking more than one hit at a time be considered continuous damage??? continuous damage is defined as "damage from a single attack that continues to deal damage every round without the need for additional attack rolls." in your example, you are taking 3 hits, which required 3 attack rolls. not continuous damage. sorry........
JLaurHughes 06-03-07, 12:33 PM	and for further reference- in the Concentration skill description pg 70 PhB, last lines before the chart.. "if more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed concentration check jindicates that the task is not completed." Thank you, musta missed that. and JLaurHughes: again, unless you are using house rules, your "rule of thumb" is incorrect. by your rule use, the skill check DC is going to always be lower than it is supposed to, making it even easier for spellcasters to pass their checks. I am bloody well aware that the DC is lower than the spell....IT'S A RULE OF THUMB SO I REMEMBER WHAT TO ADD TOGETHER!!!! Geeze. and how would taking more than one hit at a time be considered continuous damage??? continuous damage is defined as "damage from a single attack that continues to deal damage every round without the need for additional attack rolls." in your example, you are taking 3 hits, which required 3 attack rolls. not continuous damage. sorry........ I am aware that it is not continuous damage, you misunderstood what I was pointing out. I thank you though for the reference to that line points to the first part in the post I missed that when I read the first dozen times somehow.
divide_by_zero 06-04-07, 12:31 AM	Taking damage during the action is one type of distraction, so, according to the way I read it, only once check would need to be made for multiple hits taken. I haven't decided which way I would go with on setting the DC though. Set the DC at 10 + Spell Level + 1) most damage dealt by a single of the multiple hits. 2) the sum of all the damage dealt.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 06-04-07, 10:14 AM	so in this case then, you would also rule that multiple hits in a round are only reduced once by having DR??? or add up all the damage taken in a round by multiple sources of spell damage, lets say fireballs, and only reduce the damage once for having fire resistance?? its the same thing- one hit or 100 hits in a round each require a Concentration check just as each reduces the ammount of damage taken when using DR or resistances. i can see where one can come up with adding all the damage together then setting the DC, but it all comes down to semantics. there are two ways one can read the following statement.... "if more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one" 1) the word one qualifies only the word type or 2) the word one qualifies the phrase type of distraction so in case 1, you would either decide all the different, SEPERATE types of distractions that occur during the round, and determine the DC's for each type, and make a Concentration check for each one. in this case, all damage taken during the round is one type. or in case 2, you decide each type of distraction that occured during the round and set the DC for each individual Concentration check. every single instance of a type of distraction forces the check.
tarkin 06-04-07, 01:14 PM	Obi, part of what you are claiming fails the smell test. Among other things, you seem to think that someone hit 10 times for 1 pt of damage each time, should have the same chance of failure as someone hit once for 1 pt. It seems blatantly obvious to me that you need to add the damage up.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 06-04-07, 01:23 PM	no- in that case they would have to make 10 different Concentration checks- one for each hit. so the chance for failure is 10 times someone who only has to make one check. all it takes is one failure and the action is wasted. it may seem blatantly obvious to you, but it doesnt specifically say it either way (seperate rolls for each hit or add all the damage up and make one roll)- so it all depends on how one interprets the rule.............
sirkently 06-04-07, 07:48 PM	I would say that you would make a roll for each hit. It doesn't pass the reality check for me to add them all up. For example, if someone sticks me with a pin in the rear, I am going to jump. If 5 people line up behind me to do the sticking in succession, I am not going to save them up for one big jump at the end, I will jump after each one. Similarly with wizards, as soon as someone sticks you, you jump, and must make a concentration check to save your spell. Once that damage is done, it doesn't have an ongoing effect in the game. You have recovered from that distraction. Someone else sticks you, you make another check and so on and so forth. If you add all the damage together, what you are saying is that each attack before the last has had no effect except to add to the final total. For example, if the wizard is taking 5 attacks then he is sailing through 4 of them without a hitch, and the fifth can make him flinch. But if on the next round he is only taking 2 attacks he will flinch after the 2nd. If I were the wizard I would say wait a minute, I took 4 without flinching last time, whats with only being able to take one this time. That is our explanation for why you need to make a check for each hit individually.
Pentar 06-04-07, 08:08 PM	Given Merestil's indication (and correctly so) that creatures do not act simultaneously, I would say that each damage source needs to be rolled separately. If two creatures have readied actions against the spellcaster who begins a spell, each will strike separately based on their initiative modifier, or in the case of a tie, a random roll.