Class features as feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class features as feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tusalu
04-11-07, 01:28 PM I think it´s a problem that some abilities are uniqiue to classes. A fighter HAS to multiclass to rogue to gain trapfinding, a bard or monk (no matter how sneaky) gets really few benfits for catching the enemy unaware. I´ve thought out class features that can easily be converted to feats. The idea is that although the easiest way to get the abilities is having the class it belongs to, it is possible to gain them otherwise. Suggestions are most welcome.

TRAPFINDING FEAT
Prerequisites: Int 13, Disable Device 2 ranks, Search 4 ranks
Benefit: As rogue class ability

SNEAK ATTACK FEAT
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Hide 2 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Character level 3 or more
Benefit: As rogue 1st level class ability

IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK FEAT
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Int 13, Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks, Character level 5 or more
Benefit: As Sneak attack +2d6

FAVORED ENEMY FEAT
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Character level 3
Benefit: As ranger 1st level class ability

FAST MOVEMENT FEAT
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Balance 1 rank
Benefit: As Monk 2nd level class ability

Is it overpowered? Is it a bad idea? Are there other class abilities that can also be converted?
1hitparry
04-11-07, 01:40 PM You should check out the generic characters variant. It does exactly what you thought up. Well almost exactly. All the classes get broken down into 3 generic classes, Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster (they aren't the same as the NPC classes by the same name). None of the classes have class features, however common class features like Sneak Attack or Trapfinding are converted into feats. To make up for the class features, the classes get bonus feats. So you can mix and match and customize to your heart's delight.

Generic Classes Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)
Aracor
04-11-07, 02:16 PM I think it's a bad idea. You're taking away the uniqueness of the classes. If this is used, why would anyone not be a fighter?
Argo
04-11-07, 02:23 PM What Rogue wouldn't make Improved Sneak Attack his level 6 feat?

"An extra +2d6 to all my sneak attacks forever?... Beauty!"
Steidas
04-11-07, 02:37 PM See Generic Classes, ignore the rest.
Keladelros
04-11-07, 10:08 PM I think it´s a problem that some abilities are uniqiue to classes. A fighter HAS to multiclass to rogue to gain trapfinding, a bard or monk (no matter how sneaky) gets really few benfits for catching the enemy unaware. I´ve thought out class features that can easily be converted to feats. The idea is that although the easiest way to get the abilities is having the class it belongs to, it is possible to gain them otherwise. Suggestions are most welcome.

TRAPFINDING FEAT
Prerequisites: Int 13, Disable Device 2 ranks, Search 4 ranks
Benefit: As rogue class ability

SNEAK ATTACK FEAT
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Hide 2 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Character level 3 or more
Benefit: As rogue 1st level class ability

IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK FEAT
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Int 13, Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks, Character level 5 or more
Benefit: As Sneak attack +2d6

FAVORED ENEMY FEAT
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Character level 3
Benefit: As ranger 1st level class ability

FAST MOVEMENT FEAT
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Balance 1 rank
Benefit: As Monk 2nd level class ability

Is it overpowered? Is it a bad idea? Are there other class abilities that can also be converted?

Its a very bad idea... There are different classes for a reason. Some have strengths that others don't. That is the point, it shows a devolopment in the character towards certain strengths and weaknesses. That is why multiclassing is implemented and class abilities aren't taken as feats. It is overpowered, and destroys the uniqueness of most of the character classes. If you want more control over every aspect of the character, I would suggest you use the Generic Character varient from Unearthed Arcana. If you're not using that, I would tell you not to do this and save yourself the headache. Different classes have different abilities for a reason, if one could do all the things in DnD there would be no reason for a party of adventurers to team up except for having more bodies to throw at things in combat.
Zagreen
04-12-07, 12:56 AM I'm all for turning one-off abilities like Trapfinding into feats, with appropriate prereqs. I think feats tend to do a better job of modeling simple "yes-or-no" abilities than classes do, particularly for lower-level abilities. Higher-level class abilities are tough to quantify as feats--things like the monk's spell resistance are balanced by the fact that you have to take 13 levels of monk, and no amount of feats is going to equal that cost no matter how high the prerequisites. But for things like trapfinding I say go for it. The distinction between what abilities are feats and what abilities are unique class features is really quite arbitrary; why is it, for example, that anyone of any class can pick up the Track feat (1st level ranger ability) but not Wild Empathy (also 1st level ranger ability), let alone other comparable 1st level class features from other classes?

I'm not sold on generic classes as a replacement, either. There's a huge difference between using standard classes and letting players spend feats to customize them a little bit, and using generic classes and building everything from the ground up. One of the things I like about feat-ifying minor class abilities is that you have a very limited number of feats; outside of special bonus feats you get from your class, which must be chosen from a restricted list of feats related to that class, you only have half a dozen or so feats to spend. That's not exactly enough to "do everything", especially since you need to save a couple feats to boost your own class features well enough to be effective.

And for good measure, a few more ideas:

POISON USE
Prerequisites: Int 13, Sleight of Hand 9 ranks, Craft (poisonmaking) 9 ranks
Benefit: As assassin class ability

WILD EMPATHY
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks, Handle Animal 4 ranks
Benefit: As ranger ability (use 1/2 character level in place of ranger level)
Jaen
04-12-07, 01:30 AM The idea that my group of RP-ers and I undertook to solve this porblem was to make a classless system. You could play a class, and all the classes are still viable, but if you wanted you could play classless.

It used a points per lvl up and spend points for BAB hd feats and skills, and its still kinda broken but it is rather cool that as a ranger type I can take the ninja class skill that lets me apply poison without a chance of poisoning me in the process.
Tusalu
04-12-07, 09:43 AM You should check out the generic characters variant. It does exactly what you thought up. Well almost exactly. All the classes get broken down into 3 generic classes, Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster (they aren't the same as the NPC classes by the same name). None of the classes have class features, however common class features like Sneak Attack or Trapfinding are converted into feats. To make up for the class features, the classes get bonus feats. So you can mix and match and customize to your heart's delight.

Generic Classes Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)

That´s exactly what I was looking for. And I can see that sneak attack shouldn´t be a feat. But I can´t see why trapfinding isnt´a feat normally.
tarkin
04-12-07, 11:03 AM Because Class features are STRONGER than feats. That is why when a class feature grants a specific feat or a choice of a few feats (Monk, Ranger, etc. ) they pretty much always say you get the feat even if you don't meat the pre-req.

Look, every time someone makes a class feature they considered making it a feat.

Then they said "You know, this looks too powerfull. I should just make it a class feature instead."

You may disagree with them, but that is the decision they made. Considering they got paid to write what they did, you need to make a far better arguement than simply "I want to take it as a feat and I personally don't think it is overpowered".
Zagreen
04-12-07, 12:56 PM You may disagree with them, but that is the decision they made. Considering they got paid to write what they did, you need to make a far better arguement than simply "I want to take it as a feat and I personally don't think it is overpowered".

The same people also decided that giving the Fighter 11 bonus feats in lieu of class features was somehow balanced, so I'd take their words with a grain of salt.

For example, the fighter's 1st level abilities consist of one feat; the ranger's 1st level abilities consist of one feat + two class features. This argues to me that even taking the fighter's greater flexibility into account that the ranger's 1st level class abilities can't be too incredibly much more powerful than feats. Higher level abilities like Evasion or Hide in Plain Sight, yeah, these are definitely way better than any amount of feats, but we're talking about low-level stuff, the stuff that just makes up part (and not necessarily the biggest part) of a class's 1st level abilities.

On the whole maybe class features are more powerful than feats, yeah, but that doesn't mean that each and every class feature is. Your argument assumes that balance was the sole consideration and that the only reason a class feature isn't a feat is because it would be too powerful. In reality a lot of decisions got made out of respect for tradition; a lot of class features are class-specific exclusive abilities just because that's the way it was in the past, in earlier systems that didn't include feats.
Pyke_Moonshadow
04-12-07, 01:36 PM For some of the complete classes (warmage, swashbuckler, etc) that didn't really have a lot to differentiate them from their parent class as it were, I made the one or two class abilities into feats. I left the core alone though, as well as any class that had true distinction.
Shadowfax7
04-12-07, 04:25 PM For example, the fighter's 1st level abilities consist of one feat; the ranger's 1st level abilities consist of one feat + two class features.The Fighter actually starts with 8 feats: 3 Armor Proficiency feats, 2 Shield Proficiency feats, 2 Weapon proficiency feats (counting ALL Martial weapons as one proficiency for this example) and 1 bonus Fighter feat.

The Ranger starts off with 5 feats : 1 Armor Proficiency feat, 1 Shield Proficiency feat, 2 Weapon proficiency feats (counting ALL Martial weapons as one proficiency for this example) and the Track feat + 2 class abilities.
Zagreen
04-12-07, 05:20 PM Hmm. I had forgotten about tower shield proficiency; armor proficiency isn't so much to me since they're feats that so many classes get for free, but tower shields are pretty much unique to fighters, so I'll grant them that.

Still, that gives fighters 3 extra feats vs. the ranger's 2 extra class features. On its face that argues that the ranger's 2 class abilities add up to 3 feats, but that's not taking into account other class differences; I went for fighter vs. ranger because they were relatively similar in other class features (HD, BAB, etc.) but it appears those differences rear their ugly head anyhow. Taking into account the ranger's better saves and skill points vs. fighter's marginally better HD, I'd call them about even (before I would have argued ranger was getting decisively more, but again, I was failing to take tower shield proficiency into account).

Now, you can point out that most of what fighters are getting are feats of dubious usefulness (which can easily be picked up elsewhere--if you want to go up from light armor proficiency to heavy armor proficiency, don't blow two feats on it, just pick up a level of cleric or something); yeah, heavy armor is great for certain types of characters, but not every Fighter is going to have a use for it. But what rangers are getting isn't necessarily any great shakes anyhow (again, it's all great for certain characters, but if you're just in it for the Favored Enemy you're not necessarily going to care about wild empathy much), and the fighter's one flexible bonus feat is generally going to blow any one individual ranger feature out of the water (Favored Enemy has a fighting chance but is so much more limited than the fighter's bonus feat).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tusalu 04-11-07, 01:28 PM	I think it´s a problem that some abilities are uniqiue to classes. A fighter HAS to multiclass to rogue to gain trapfinding, a bard or monk (no matter how sneaky) gets really few benfits for catching the enemy unaware. I´ve thought out class features that can easily be converted to feats. The idea is that although the easiest way to get the abilities is having the class it belongs to, it is possible to gain them otherwise. Suggestions are most welcome. TRAPFINDING FEAT Prerequisites: Int 13, Disable Device 2 ranks, Search 4 ranks Benefit: As rogue class ability SNEAK ATTACK FEAT Prerequisites: Dex 13, Hide 2 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Character level 3 or more Benefit: As rogue 1st level class ability IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK FEAT Prerequisites: Dex 15, Int 13, Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks, Character level 5 or more Benefit: As Sneak attack +2d6 FAVORED ENEMY FEAT Prerequisites: Wis 13, Character level 3 Benefit: As ranger 1st level class ability FAST MOVEMENT FEAT Prerequisites: Dex 13, Balance 1 rank Benefit: As Monk 2nd level class ability Is it overpowered? Is it a bad idea? Are there other class abilities that can also be converted?
1hitparry 04-11-07, 01:40 PM	You should check out the generic characters variant. It does exactly what you thought up. Well almost exactly. All the classes get broken down into 3 generic classes, Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster (they aren't the same as the NPC classes by the same name). None of the classes have class features, however common class features like Sneak Attack or Trapfinding are converted into feats. To make up for the class features, the classes get bonus feats. So you can mix and match and customize to your heart's delight. Generic Classes Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)
Aracor 04-11-07, 02:16 PM	I think it's a bad idea. You're taking away the uniqueness of the classes. If this is used, why would anyone not be a fighter?
Argo 04-11-07, 02:23 PM	What Rogue wouldn't make Improved Sneak Attack his level 6 feat? "An extra +2d6 to all my sneak attacks forever?... Beauty!"
Steidas 04-11-07, 02:37 PM	See Generic Classes, ignore the rest.
Keladelros 04-11-07, 10:08 PM	I think it´s a problem that some abilities are uniqiue to classes. A fighter HAS to multiclass to rogue to gain trapfinding, a bard or monk (no matter how sneaky) gets really few benfits for catching the enemy unaware. I´ve thought out class features that can easily be converted to feats. The idea is that although the easiest way to get the abilities is having the class it belongs to, it is possible to gain them otherwise. Suggestions are most welcome. TRAPFINDING FEAT Prerequisites: Int 13, Disable Device 2 ranks, Search 4 ranks Benefit: As rogue class ability SNEAK ATTACK FEAT Prerequisites: Dex 13, Hide 2 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Character level 3 or more Benefit: As rogue 1st level class ability IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK FEAT Prerequisites: Dex 15, Int 13, Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks, Character level 5 or more Benefit: As Sneak attack +2d6 FAVORED ENEMY FEAT Prerequisites: Wis 13, Character level 3 Benefit: As ranger 1st level class ability FAST MOVEMENT FEAT Prerequisites: Dex 13, Balance 1 rank Benefit: As Monk 2nd level class ability Is it overpowered? Is it a bad idea? Are there other class abilities that can also be converted? Its a very bad idea... There are different classes for a reason. Some have strengths that others don't. That is the point, it shows a devolopment in the character towards certain strengths and weaknesses. That is why multiclassing is implemented and class abilities aren't taken as feats. It is overpowered, and destroys the uniqueness of most of the character classes. If you want more control over every aspect of the character, I would suggest you use the Generic Character varient from Unearthed Arcana. If you're not using that, I would tell you not to do this and save yourself the headache. Different classes have different abilities for a reason, if one could do all the things in DnD there would be no reason for a party of adventurers to team up except for having more bodies to throw at things in combat.
Zagreen 04-12-07, 12:56 AM	I'm all for turning one-off abilities like Trapfinding into feats, with appropriate prereqs. I think feats tend to do a better job of modeling simple "yes-or-no" abilities than classes do, particularly for lower-level abilities. Higher-level class abilities are tough to quantify as feats--things like the monk's spell resistance are balanced by the fact that you have to take 13 levels of monk, and no amount of feats is going to equal that cost no matter how high the prerequisites. But for things like trapfinding I say go for it. The distinction between what abilities are feats and what abilities are unique class features is really quite arbitrary; why is it, for example, that anyone of any class can pick up the Track feat (1st level ranger ability) but not Wild Empathy (also 1st level ranger ability), let alone other comparable 1st level class features from other classes? I'm not sold on generic classes as a replacement, either. There's a huge difference between using standard classes and letting players spend feats to customize them a little bit, and using generic classes and building everything from the ground up. One of the things I like about feat-ifying minor class abilities is that you have a very limited number of feats; outside of special bonus feats you get from your class, which must be chosen from a restricted list of feats related to that class, you only have half a dozen or so feats to spend. That's not exactly enough to "do everything", especially since you need to save a couple feats to boost your own class features well enough to be effective. And for good measure, a few more ideas: POISON USE Prerequisites: Int 13, Sleight of Hand 9 ranks, Craft (poisonmaking) 9 ranks Benefit: As assassin class ability WILD EMPATHY Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks, Handle Animal 4 ranks Benefit: As ranger ability (use 1/2 character level in place of ranger level)
Jaen 04-12-07, 01:30 AM	The idea that my group of RP-ers and I undertook to solve this porblem was to make a classless system. You could play a class, and all the classes are still viable, but if you wanted you could play classless. It used a points per lvl up and spend points for BAB hd feats and skills, and its still kinda broken but it is rather cool that as a ranger type I can take the ninja class skill that lets me apply poison without a chance of poisoning me in the process.
Tusalu 04-12-07, 09:43 AM	You should check out the generic characters variant. It does exactly what you thought up. Well almost exactly. All the classes get broken down into 3 generic classes, Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster (they aren't the same as the NPC classes by the same name). None of the classes have class features, however common class features like Sneak Attack or Trapfinding are converted into feats. To make up for the class features, the classes get bonus feats. So you can mix and match and customize to your heart's delight. Generic Classes Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) That´s exactly what I was looking for. And I can see that sneak attack shouldn´t be a feat. But I can´t see why trapfinding isnt´a feat normally.
tarkin 04-12-07, 11:03 AM	Because Class features are STRONGER than feats. That is why when a class feature grants a specific feat or a choice of a few feats (Monk, Ranger, etc. ) they pretty much always say you get the feat even if you don't meat the pre-req. Look, every time someone makes a class feature they considered making it a feat. Then they said "You know, this looks too powerfull. I should just make it a class feature instead." You may disagree with them, but that is the decision they made. Considering they got paid to write what they did, you need to make a far better arguement than simply "I want to take it as a feat and I personally don't think it is overpowered".
Zagreen 04-12-07, 12:56 PM	You may disagree with them, but that is the decision they made. Considering they got paid to write what they did, you need to make a far better arguement than simply "I want to take it as a feat and I personally don't think it is overpowered". The same people also decided that giving the Fighter 11 bonus feats in lieu of class features was somehow balanced, so I'd take their words with a grain of salt. For example, the fighter's 1st level abilities consist of one feat; the ranger's 1st level abilities consist of one feat + two class features. This argues to me that even taking the fighter's greater flexibility into account that the ranger's 1st level class abilities can't be too incredibly much more powerful than feats. Higher level abilities like Evasion or Hide in Plain Sight, yeah, these are definitely way better than any amount of feats, but we're talking about low-level stuff, the stuff that just makes up part (and not necessarily the biggest part) of a class's 1st level abilities. On the whole maybe class features are more powerful than feats, yeah, but that doesn't mean that each and every class feature is. Your argument assumes that balance was the sole consideration and that the only reason a class feature isn't a feat is because it would be too powerful. In reality a lot of decisions got made out of respect for tradition; a lot of class features are class-specific exclusive abilities just because that's the way it was in the past, in earlier systems that didn't include feats.
Pyke_Moonshadow 04-12-07, 01:36 PM	For some of the complete classes (warmage, swashbuckler, etc) that didn't really have a lot to differentiate them from their parent class as it were, I made the one or two class abilities into feats. I left the core alone though, as well as any class that had true distinction.
Shadowfax7 04-12-07, 04:25 PM	For example, the fighter's 1st level abilities consist of one feat; the ranger's 1st level abilities consist of one feat + two class features.The Fighter actually starts with 8 feats: 3 Armor Proficiency feats, 2 Shield Proficiency feats, 2 Weapon proficiency feats (counting ALL Martial weapons as one proficiency for this example) and 1 bonus Fighter feat. The Ranger starts off with 5 feats : 1 Armor Proficiency feat, 1 Shield Proficiency feat, 2 Weapon proficiency feats (counting ALL Martial weapons as one proficiency for this example) and the Track feat + 2 class abilities.
Zagreen 04-12-07, 05:20 PM	Hmm. I had forgotten about tower shield proficiency; armor proficiency isn't so much to me since they're feats that so many classes get for free, but tower shields are pretty much unique to fighters, so I'll grant them that. Still, that gives fighters 3 extra feats vs. the ranger's 2 extra class features. On its face that argues that the ranger's 2 class abilities add up to 3 feats, but that's not taking into account other class differences; I went for fighter vs. ranger because they were relatively similar in other class features (HD, BAB, etc.) but it appears those differences rear their ugly head anyhow. Taking into account the ranger's better saves and skill points vs. fighter's marginally better HD, I'd call them about even (before I would have argued ranger was getting decisively more, but again, I was failing to take tower shield proficiency into account). Now, you can point out that most of what fighters are getting are feats of dubious usefulness (which can easily be picked up elsewhere--if you want to go up from light armor proficiency to heavy armor proficiency, don't blow two feats on it, just pick up a level of cleric or something); yeah, heavy armor is great for certain types of characters, but not every Fighter is going to have a use for it. But what rangers are getting isn't necessarily any great shakes anyhow (again, it's all great for certain characters, but if you're just in it for the Favored Enemy you're not necessarily going to care about wild empathy much), and the fighter's one flexible bonus feat is generally going to blow any one individual ranger feature out of the water (Favored Enemy has a fighting chance but is so much more limited than the fighter's bonus feat).