Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xenu 04-05-07, 02:31 PM	I want to make a character that have as much knowledge skills as possible. The easiest way to do this ought to be a Indiana Jones type of character: Take one level of rogue, then throw in one level of bard or wizard to make all skills class skills, then go rogue all the way. The result, a swachbuckling academician. :D As long as I make my char human or gnome, it's all set allready. However, I happen to love to break stereotypes. I want my hero to be a kobold! Maybe I should settle for goblin. That would solve the problem, since they have rogue as favored class. But I want a kobold! I might also make him a bard instead of a rogue, but I do prefer rogue. So: I want a kobold rogue to have all knowledge skills as class skills. And I want to do it without chewing up a heavy xp penalty. Is there any feat, PrC or whatever that can solve this problem rather easily? Any other good ideas along the way? :)
WinterPsionic 04-05-07, 02:34 PM	1 Word: Factotum EVERY skill is a class skill. There's also a Feat in Races of Destiny I believe that can help with this.
DarknessEternal 04-05-07, 03:05 PM	Or, Education. It makes all Knowledge skills into class skills.
nightwyrm 04-05-07, 03:31 PM	You can't do it with the way you described. A class skill is only a class skill for that level you took. So if you took a wizard level then a rogue level, the knowledges won't be class skills for the rogue level. A decent class with all knowledges and decent skills is the dragonfire adapt. You can get draconic knowledge invocations too which gives you +6 on all knowledge and spellcraft checks and allow you to make checks in those skills as if you're trained.
Xenu 04-05-07, 10:33 PM	Or, Education. It makes all Knowledge skills into class skills. Cool. What more does it do? What prerequisites do it have?
Xenu 04-05-07, 10:33 PM	You can't do it with the way you described. A class skill is only a class skill for that level you took. So if you took a wizard level then a rogue level, the knowledges won't be class skills for the rogue level. :(
runestar 04-05-07, 10:44 PM	The cap would still be at HD+3, just that they would be more expensive to max out, since you are purchasing them at the cross-class rate. You can take able learner from races of destiny to remedy this however. :)
Isomer 04-05-07, 10:45 PM	Archivist from the Hero's of Horror is a knowledge heavy class, they get all knowledges as class skills and the basic flavor of them are that they are scholors who collect and look for obscure lore. As they gain more knowledge they use that info for buffing party members by the use of dark knowledge. Effectively they are telling the weaknesses and stratigies of the monsters you encounter. The core of their offensive power isn't swashbuckling though, they are divine spell castors who through their research can learn ANY/ALL divine spells (not just cleric or druid). Tis a fun little class.
Dheran 04-06-07, 07:35 AM	A Cleric with the Knowledge domain also gets all Knowledge skills as class skills. Or you can take a level of the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVarian tCloisteredCleric) variant and get the Knowledge domain as your bonus domain in addition to your regular two domains. Once you've got them as class skills, a feat like Able Learner will let you buy them at 1 point per rank regardless of which class you're advancing in.
Dheran 04-06-07, 07:49 AM	What more does it do? What prerequisites do it have? Education also lets you add +1 to any two Knowledge skills. The prerequisite is: you must take it at 1st level. The catch is that Education has only been printed in campaign setting books. It's in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting on page 34 and identically -- except for the regions where it's offered -- in the Eberron Campaign Setting on page 52. It's also in Ghostwalk, although I'm just going by the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats) for that one.
runestar 04-06-07, 09:55 AM	The FR version of education lets you add +2 to any 2 specific knowledge checks, as opposed to the +1 offered by the eberron version. But I think the FR version is slightly more difficult to qualify for, since it is available only to a few specific regions and races.
Firestar27 04-06-07, 10:10 AM	You can't do it with the way you described. A class skill is only a class skill for that level you took. So if you took a wizard level then a rogue level, the knowledges won't be class skills for the rogue level. Can you please quote the rules for this? I believe you and it makes sense. I just want to be sure. The only problem is that if you're right, then a LOT of the sample characters for the PrCs in the Complete Divine are incorrect. For example, the Black Flame Zealot is a Cleric 3/rogue 2/black flame zealot 7. It is impossible to get the required 8 ranks in knowledge (religion) with only 3 levels of cleric by your ruling. It is the same problem for getting the 8 ranks in hide and move silently with only 2 levels in rogue by your ruling.
runestar 04-06-07, 10:25 AM	For example, the Black Flame Zealot is a Cleric 3/rogue 2/black flame zealot 7. It is impossible to get the required 8 ranks in knowledge (religion) with only 3 levels of cleric by your ruling. It is the same problem for getting the 8 ranks in hide and move silently with only 2 levels in rogue by your ruling. There is nothing wrong with that example. To put things into perspective, say I go rogue1, then multiclass in wizard. As a rogue1/wiz1, I can pump my hide skill from 4 to 5 ranks. However, it is a cross-class skill for wizard, and will require 2 skill points to raise it by 1 rank. But because rogue has it as a class skill, the max cap is now raised to HD+3 for now and forevermore, regardless of which class is investing ranks in said skill.:)
nightwyrm 04-06-07, 10:40 AM	I guess I should've been more clear, the max skill rank of a class skill of any class you have is total character level+3 but buying it would be more expensive if you levelled up in a class that doesn't have the skill as a class skill.
Dheran 04-06-07, 06:46 PM	The FR version of education lets you add +2 to any 2 specific knowledge checks, as opposed to the +1 offered by the eberron version. I guess they changed it in the Player's Guide to Faerun, because the original one (in the FRCS) gives the same +1 as in the Eberron Campaign Setting. I just checked the Ghostwalk version, and it also has the +1 bonus; the only difference is the different regional base requirement.
Xenu 04-07-07, 05:53 PM	Education also lets you add +1 to any two Knowledge skills. The prerequisite is: you must take it at 1st level. Cool. The catch is that Education has only been printed in campaign setting books. It's in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting on page 34 and identically -- except for the regions where it's offered -- in the Eberron Campaign Setting on page 52. It's also in Ghostwalk, although I'm just going by the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats) for that one. Not much of a catch, since everything beyond the PHB have the "only if the DM allows it" prerequisite anyway. :D
Xenu 04-07-07, 05:54 PM	You can take able learner from races of destiny to remedy this however. :) Thanks but no thanks. It sounded cool, so I checked it. Turned out that this feat has the prerequisite of being either a human or a dopplenganger. :(
Xenu 04-07-07, 05:56 PM	So. It will be a Lawful Good goblin rogue with one level of Wizard with divination specialization and with Education as his level 1 feat. (The wizard level isn't necessary for the build, I know. But I want it. :) )
Xenu 04-07-07, 06:35 PM	Hmm. By the way. Are there any races that have both: *No level adjustment, can start with a class level at level 1 & *Either bonus on intelligence, or some other perk that gives extra skillpoints or otherwise are useful for a character focused on skills?
JulesCARV 04-07-07, 09:08 PM	Not much of a catch, since everything beyond the PHB have the "only if the DM allows it" prerequisite anyway. :D Everything in the PHB too. ;)
Xenu 04-08-07, 10:53 AM	Everything in the PHB too. ;) In theory, yes. Lets say the campaign starts as court. The characters must all be at least half human (and if half-elf or half-orc, then the background and social status will have to be extra carefully described). They must all be of classes that fit a noble. No barbarians, druids or rogues. However, If the GM is going to rule out any of the basic classes or races or such like this, then I think he should normally say so before the players make their characters.
Xenu 04-08-07, 11:31 AM	Over to the next question, the skills and feats themselves. I think I'll take archer feats for my next few feats. Probably ought to pick up Weapon finess eventually so I can function in melee as well. Maybe Leadership later on. The real question is the skills. With 18 Int, I'm going to have 13 skill points at each level. I'm going to have 9 skills that I keep maxxed at all times. The 4 extra skillpoints per level will be used to suck up the six points I lose on the wizard level(s?) and to fuel a secondary list of skills that I'll get some ranks n but won't max. Anything you think I should add or remove on these lists? Primary 9 *Decipher Script *Diplomacy *Disable Device *Knowledge: Arcana *Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering *Knowledge: Geography *Knowledge: History *Knowledge: Religion *Perform Oratory Other skills *Appraise *Balance *climb *Craft Art *Escape Artist *Gather Information *Hide *Jump *Knowledge: Dungeoneering *Knowledge: The Planes *Listen *Move Silently *Profession Stonemason *Search *Sense Motive *spellcraft *Spot *Swim *Use magic device *use rope
wal9000 04-08-07, 01:47 PM	Can you please quote the rules for this? I believe you and it makes sense. I just want to be sure. The only problem is that if you're right, then a LOT of the sample characters for the PrCs in the Complete Divine are incorrect. For example, the Black Flame Zealot is a Cleric 3/rogue 2/black flame zealot 7. It is impossible to get the required 8 ranks in knowledge (religion) with only 3 levels of cleric by your ruling. It is the same problem for getting the 8 ranks in hide and move silently with only 2 levels in rogue by your ruling. Remember that you buy skills based on the class you have advanced in, so that only those skills given as class skills for that class can be purchased as class skills for this level, regardless of what other classes you may have levels in. I've been wondering where it actually said that, this thread inspired me to get my books out and look it up. Also, those examples in Complete Divine aren't necessarily impossible. They could have not added ranks when they leveled in Rogue, and dumped all of their extra skill points in to it when they leveled up in Cleric again. Max ranks are determined by whether it's a class skill for any of your classes, so there's nothing stopping a character from taking levels in another class and ignoring skills that would cost extra points, and still gotten it up to full ranks later when leveling in a class that can buy it at a 1:1 ratio.