Cleave Exploit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleave Exploit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Perseus_Stoned
03-30-07, 07:37 PM Cleave [General]
Prerequisites:
Str 13, Power Attack.

Benefit
If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

My question is whether or not a target could drop prone as a result of damage done, thereby letting the cleave user take advantage of this feat. If not are there any abilities out there (such as the rogue's defensive roll) that, while taking little or no damage for the ability user, would allow the cleave user to take unfair advantage of this feat?

My concern is based around the fact it says you just need to drop an enemy below 0 hit points, which seems a bit more open than I'd like.
Jack Greylock
03-30-07, 07:54 PM If you Kill something or Knock It Unconscious you get an extra attack against an enemy within your threatened area. End of story.
bobothechimp
03-30-07, 07:58 PM It only says you have to make it drop, the 0 hit points is only what typically causes it to do as such. It does not say what it drops. By RAW, you could make it drop its weapon and that would work.
Perseus_Stoned
03-30-07, 08:02 PM If you Kill something or Knock It Unconscious you get an extra attack against an enemy within your threatened area. End of story.

Where did you find this ruling?

It only says you have to make it drop, the 0 hit points is only what typically causes it to do as such. It does not say what it drops. By RAW, you could make it drop its weapon and that would work.

With the exception to the "drop weapons" bit, do you think this was intentional phrasing? Or was this feat entirely meant to only (no if ands or buts) deal with killing/knocking enemies unconscious and was just poorly/ambiguously phrased?
Jack Greylock
03-30-07, 08:14 PM Just poorly phrased. It is a very powerful feat as it is. If you start interpreting it like bobothechimp their, your going to find that it’s power is way off the hook. Come on people don’t be ridiculous it is called cleave for a reason. The definition of cleave is “To split with or as if with a sharp instrument”.
Perseus_Stoned
03-30-07, 08:15 PM Just poorly phrased. It is a very powerful feat as it is. If you start interpreting it like bobothechimp their, your going to find that it’s power is way off the hook. Come on people don’t be ridiculous it is called cleave for a reason. The definition of cleave is “To split with or as if with a sharp instrument”.

Alright thank you (in bobothechimp's defense I believe he was simply stating how absurd the feat could get interpreted RAW, not actually saying he would play that way).
Cartigan
03-30-07, 09:50 PM That was a very, very poor choice of wording in the description, but interpreting like that is way off the charts of absurd.
bobothechimp
03-30-07, 10:01 PM Way to miss a joke. :(
Merestil Haye
03-30-07, 10:03 PM it's generally agreed that a character who is tripped is not "dropped" for the purposes of the Cleave feat. (Quite right too).

Hoever the Knock-Down feat works the other way - you make the attack then if you deal enough damage can attempt a trip attack. Would that sequence trigger Cleave? Would you consider driving someone to the ground by the sheer force of your blow "dropping" them?

For reference, the Knock-Down feat.Knock-Down [General]
Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.

Benefit
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.Opinions?
MightyPotamus
03-30-07, 10:10 PM I don't think that it's poor wording, I just think that they forgot to reword it after 3.0. The archaic feat Knock-Down from Sword and Fist lets a character make a it's opponent drop via "enough damage" without killing it; in this case 10 points in a single melee attack followed by a free trip attack (which is a free action, and therefore part of the damage dealing attack).

But that's just my take.
MightyPotamus
03-30-07, 10:12 PM And Merestil Haye comes in moments before for the win while Potamus is busy still looking up outdates source books and typing his response.:P
Someone
03-31-07, 01:26 AM There is more than one way to skin a cat. For example, you could kill them through lethal damage, knock them out with nonlethal damage, kill them with a level drain or sufficient attribute loss, turn them to stone/ash/dust/jello, or simply vorpal their head off. In any event, they are now an ex-opponent, XP in the bank, work for the level gnomes, a pile of lootable items, having been dropped like a bad habit.

You can only cleave off of melee attacks that leave your target an ex-opponent. Tripped does not do that.
BW0222
03-31-07, 09:02 AM Folks,

Lets start with the question.

My question is whether or not a target could drop prone as a result of damage done, thereby letting the cleave user take advantage of this feat.

Dropping prone voluntarily is an action and as such it can only be done on the target's initiative. Thus, the cleaver would have to wait for the target's initiative. This is not "immediate".

Now, many DMs allow a person to drop prone even if it isn't their initiative - typically to allow PCs to who are low on hit points to 'play dead' and avoid a second (potentially fatal) hit. However...

The feat says "if you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". It would be a stretch to say that you dealt enough damage to make it drop. You didn't. It dropped without being made to drop. It certainly doesn't apply to trip attempts.

The term 'drop' does not to include merely going prone. It is left broad to cover a lot of cases besides taking a creature to -1 hit points or lower. For example, taking a summoned creature to 0hp unsummons it - you can't actually kill one. Doing more than 50hp of damage might kill someone outright yet not actually drop it below 0. A wounding sword might cause a creature's Con to drop to 0, killing it. It is possible to 'drop' a target without it going prone. For example, levitating creature or underwater. There are also creatures which can not be prone. Slimes for example.

It is fairly clear that drop does not mean prone. It just happens that most creatures who are dropped end up prone.
runestar
03-31-07, 10:20 AM Now, many DMs allow a person to drop prone even if it isn't their initiative - typically to allow PCs to who are low on hit points to 'play dead' and avoid a second (potentially fatal) hit. However...
Woe to the player if the enemy does not fall for the trick, and decides to follow up with another attack(with a +4 to-hit as well)...:D
ClementWillowbreaker
03-31-07, 11:52 AM It is fairly clear that drop does not mean prone. It just happens that most creatures who are dropped end up prone.
The most hilarious thing is that there is no rule that unconscious creatures fall prone. Just like there are no rules for sleeping. It's all well and good to worry about the artistic language of Cleave, but there are larger problems afoot ;)
MightyPotamus
03-31-07, 11:54 AM Woe to the player if the enemy does not fall for the trick, and decides to follow up with another attack(with a +4 to-hit as well)...:D

If I was DMing I would make him roll bluff vs. sense motive.
Perseus_Stoned
03-31-07, 03:29 PM Alright, thanks to everyone who's helped out and answered. BW0222 touched on the thing I was trying to get around to though...

Dropping prone voluntarily is an action and as such it can only be done on the target's initiative. Thus, the cleaver would have to wait for the target's initiative. This is not "immediate".

The feat says "if you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". It would be a stretch to say that you dealt enough damage to make it drop. You didn't. It dropped without being made to drop. It certainly doesn't apply to trip attempts.

The term 'drop' does not to include merely going prone. It is left broad to cover a lot of cases besides taking a creature to -1 hit points or lower. For example, taking a summoned creature to 0hp unsummons it - you can't actually kill one.

It is fairly clear that drop does not mean prone. It just happens that most creatures who are dropped end up prone.
(Edited for the information I wanted to work with)

What happens if a player says they want to "ready to drop prone when they receive melee damage". Would an enemy who hits them in melee once, then has the player drop prone, get a cleave attack on the player's ally (assuming its the monster's enemy)?
Pentagram
03-31-07, 08:16 PM If a person hit in melee CHOOSES to drop to the ground, Cleave shouldn't trigger as it wasn't the attacker that made the person drop. Also, if an involuntary fall (trip attack) isn't enough to trigger a cleave, a voluntary fall shouldn't either.

THOUGH, the ability to "force" a cleave by dropping from an attack (or dodging it) could be part of a tactical feat (compare to Elusive Target).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perseus_Stoned 03-30-07, 07:37 PM	Cleave [General] Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. My question is whether or not a target could drop prone as a result of damage done, thereby letting the cleave user take advantage of this feat. If not are there any abilities out there (such as the rogue's defensive roll) that, while taking little or no damage for the ability user, would allow the cleave user to take unfair advantage of this feat? My concern is based around the fact it says you just need to drop an enemy below 0 hit points, which seems a bit more open than I'd like.
Jack Greylock 03-30-07, 07:54 PM	If you Kill something or Knock It Unconscious you get an extra attack against an enemy within your threatened area. End of story.
bobothechimp 03-30-07, 07:58 PM	It only says you have to make it drop, the 0 hit points is only what typically causes it to do as such. It does not say what it drops. By RAW, you could make it drop its weapon and that would work.
Perseus_Stoned 03-30-07, 08:02 PM	If you Kill something or Knock It Unconscious you get an extra attack against an enemy within your threatened area. End of story. Where did you find this ruling? It only says you have to make it drop, the 0 hit points is only what typically causes it to do as such. It does not say what it drops. By RAW, you could make it drop its weapon and that would work. With the exception to the "drop weapons" bit, do you think this was intentional phrasing? Or was this feat entirely meant to only (no if ands or buts) deal with killing/knocking enemies unconscious and was just poorly/ambiguously phrased?
Jack Greylock 03-30-07, 08:14 PM	Just poorly phrased. It is a very powerful feat as it is. If you start interpreting it like bobothechimp their, your going to find that it’s power is way off the hook. Come on people don’t be ridiculous it is called cleave for a reason. The definition of cleave is “To split with or as if with a sharp instrument”.
Perseus_Stoned 03-30-07, 08:15 PM	Just poorly phrased. It is a very powerful feat as it is. If you start interpreting it like bobothechimp their, your going to find that it’s power is way off the hook. Come on people don’t be ridiculous it is called cleave for a reason. The definition of cleave is “To split with or as if with a sharp instrument”. Alright thank you (in bobothechimp's defense I believe he was simply stating how absurd the feat could get interpreted RAW, not actually saying he would play that way).
Cartigan 03-30-07, 09:50 PM	That was a very, very poor choice of wording in the description, but interpreting like that is way off the charts of absurd.
bobothechimp 03-30-07, 10:01 PM	Way to miss a joke. :(
Merestil Haye 03-30-07, 10:03 PM	it's generally agreed that a character who is tripped is not "dropped" for the purposes of the Cleave feat. (Quite right too). Hoever the Knock-Down feat works the other way - you make the attack then if you deal enough damage can attempt a trip attack. Would that sequence trigger Cleave? Would you consider driving someone to the ground by the sheer force of your blow "dropping" them? For reference, the Knock-Down feat.Knock-Down [General] Prerequisites Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15. Benefit Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.Opinions?
MightyPotamus 03-30-07, 10:10 PM	I don't think that it's poor wording, I just think that they forgot to reword it after 3.0. The archaic feat Knock-Down from Sword and Fist lets a character make a it's opponent drop via "enough damage" without killing it; in this case 10 points in a single melee attack followed by a free trip attack (which is a free action, and therefore part of the damage dealing attack). But that's just my take.
MightyPotamus 03-30-07, 10:12 PM	And Merestil Haye comes in moments before for the win while Potamus is busy still looking up outdates source books and typing his response.:P
Someone 03-31-07, 01:26 AM	There is more than one way to skin a cat. For example, you could kill them through lethal damage, knock them out with nonlethal damage, kill them with a level drain or sufficient attribute loss, turn them to stone/ash/dust/jello, or simply vorpal their head off. In any event, they are now an ex-opponent, XP in the bank, work for the level gnomes, a pile of lootable items, having been dropped like a bad habit. You can only cleave off of melee attacks that leave your target an ex-opponent. Tripped does not do that.
BW0222 03-31-07, 09:02 AM	Folks, Lets start with the question. My question is whether or not a target could drop prone as a result of damage done, thereby letting the cleave user take advantage of this feat. Dropping prone voluntarily is an action and as such it can only be done on the target's initiative. Thus, the cleaver would have to wait for the target's initiative. This is not "immediate". Now, many DMs allow a person to drop prone even if it isn't their initiative - typically to allow PCs to who are low on hit points to 'play dead' and avoid a second (potentially fatal) hit. However... The feat says "if you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". It would be a stretch to say that you dealt enough damage to make it drop. You didn't. It dropped without being made to drop. It certainly doesn't apply to trip attempts. The term 'drop' does not to include merely going prone. It is left broad to cover a lot of cases besides taking a creature to -1 hit points or lower. For example, taking a summoned creature to 0hp unsummons it - you can't actually kill one. Doing more than 50hp of damage might kill someone outright yet not actually drop it below 0. A wounding sword might cause a creature's Con to drop to 0, killing it. It is possible to 'drop' a target without it going prone. For example, levitating creature or underwater. There are also creatures which can not be prone. Slimes for example. It is fairly clear that drop does not mean prone. It just happens that most creatures who are dropped end up prone.
runestar 03-31-07, 10:20 AM	Now, many DMs allow a person to drop prone even if it isn't their initiative - typically to allow PCs to who are low on hit points to 'play dead' and avoid a second (potentially fatal) hit. However... Woe to the player if the enemy does not fall for the trick, and decides to follow up with another attack(with a +4 to-hit as well)...:D
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-07, 11:52 AM	It is fairly clear that drop does not mean prone. It just happens that most creatures who are dropped end up prone. The most hilarious thing is that there is no rule that unconscious creatures fall prone. Just like there are no rules for sleeping. It's all well and good to worry about the artistic language of Cleave, but there are larger problems afoot ;)
MightyPotamus 03-31-07, 11:54 AM	Woe to the player if the enemy does not fall for the trick, and decides to follow up with another attack(with a +4 to-hit as well)...:D If I was DMing I would make him roll bluff vs. sense motive.
Perseus_Stoned 03-31-07, 03:29 PM	Alright, thanks to everyone who's helped out and answered. BW0222 touched on the thing I was trying to get around to though... Dropping prone voluntarily is an action and as such it can only be done on the target's initiative. Thus, the cleaver would have to wait for the target's initiative. This is not "immediate". The feat says "if you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". It would be a stretch to say that you dealt enough damage to make it drop. You didn't. It dropped without being made to drop. It certainly doesn't apply to trip attempts. The term 'drop' does not to include merely going prone. It is left broad to cover a lot of cases besides taking a creature to -1 hit points or lower. For example, taking a summoned creature to 0hp unsummons it - you can't actually kill one. It is fairly clear that drop does not mean prone. It just happens that most creatures who are dropped end up prone. (Edited for the information I wanted to work with) What happens if a player says they want to "ready to drop prone when they receive melee damage". Would an enemy who hits them in melee once, then has the player drop prone, get a cleave attack on the player's ally (assuming its the monster's enemy)?
Pentagram 03-31-07, 08:16 PM	If a person hit in melee CHOOSES to drop to the ground, Cleave shouldn't trigger as it wasn't the attacker that made the person drop. Also, if an involuntary fall (trip attack) isn't enough to trigger a cleave, a voluntary fall shouldn't either. THOUGH, the ability to "force" a cleave by dropping from an attack (or dodging it) could be part of a tactical feat (compare to Elusive Target).