Cleric Rebuking [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Rebuking [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tuberov
10-24-07, 07:18 PM Is there any way to increase the number of hit dice that a cleric can rebuke? My necromancer is looking for a big, "bodyguard," and I'm wondering if his hit dice is the max level of hit dice I can use as said, "bodyguard."

Also, how do you get a corpse creature out of the Create Undead spell? Is there a supplemental chart somewhere or something that expands the original spell's chart. I know it's the wrong forum to ask in, but I figure it as a bonus question :P.
dman11235
10-24-07, 07:33 PM Deathbound Domain (SpC), and an epic feat. Those are the only ways I know.

EDIT: those increase the max total. I know of no way to get a max HD for single undead, nor did I know that there was a max for single undead you could control.
tuberov
10-24-07, 07:48 PM Yeah, the maximum undead a cleric can control is his level (I probably should of said control instead of rebuke, huh :pbbbtt:). Sorry.

I don't think that the control up to twice your level in hit points from a spell cast applies to create undead since that spell doesn't give you automatic control.
dman11235
10-24-07, 10:49 PM There's a limit to the max number of HD you can control, and that is 2xlevel. Deathbound increases it to 3x, and the epic feat is 10x. I don't know of anything that increases the max HD of the undead you can control. Check the Consolidated Lists archive. There may be something in Libris Mortis, being the book of the dead and all.
tuberov
10-24-07, 11:21 PM Right. In the Player's Handbook, it says that you can control no more than your cleric level worth of undead using the turn/rebuke class feature. The Animate Dead spell let's you control two times your hit dice in undead (three times if you get the deathbound domain). I think that's about as clear as I can distinguish the two from each other.
strenoth
10-25-07, 10:33 AM you have multiple pools of undead HD you can control.

Rebuking pool.

Animate Dead pool

And, IIRC, the spell 'control undead' has its own pool.

you can not use multiple pools on the same creature, but you could have 3 body guards, one for each pool of HD you have available.
tuberov
10-25-07, 07:13 PM But with Animate Dead, you can't get very good bodyguards, as they are only skeletons and zombies. Good meat shields to an extent but that's all.
tuberov
10-26-07, 10:39 AM Also, how do you get a corpse creature out of the Create Undead spell? Is there a supplemental chart somewhere or something that expands the original spell's chart. I know it's the wrong forum to ask in, but I figure it as a bonus question :P.

Anyone have any insight on this part? I know it's possible, but I want to explain exactly how and maybe be able to point to it in a book for proof.

Thanks.
Goldenmaxter
10-27-07, 10:35 PM The Book of Exalted Deeds has a feat on clerics turning undead, so I would check out the Book of Vile Darkness, since it is the polar opposite of the BoED. Just a suggestion.
Axiomatic_vampire
10-27-07, 11:44 PM Commanding more undead than you're supposed to get is a tricky one. It doesn't go by your effective turning level, it's actual cleric level as per page 159 of the PH. Best you can do is tweak up your turning level to be twice your actual level, allowing you to get an undead at least THAT beefy (otherwise they are rebuked, not commanded)

As far as greater and normal create undead spells, as far as I know the tables are the tables. They give you those undead, that's it.

Keep in mind that there's a mummy template in Libris Mortis, a DM might let you apply that to a body with Create Undead, rather than generating a standard MM mummy. That can be your ticket to some awesome help, as long as it's equal HD, and you can boost your turning level high enough.
tuberov
10-28-07, 12:02 AM Hmm........I thought I saw somewhere that you can make use the Create Undead spell to get zombies with the Corpse template and such. Otherwise, that makes the character's options for getting undead he wants at the mercy of the DM, which is stupid (and just the way Wizards works ><).

Well, my character is going to become a true necromancer (bad choice, I know, but I've always wanted to play one). I'm not sure if I'm going to get his turning level up high enough to control something the same as his hit dice, and it doesn't really seem worth it if I'm at the mercy of the DM for beyond-basic undead.

Such a waste. :banghead:
zeratulcraft
10-28-07, 12:02 AM Rod of Undead Mastery or something from Libris Mortis does something awesome to your control cap, think it doubles it. Might do more, check it out.
Beckettvampire
10-28-07, 12:16 AM Use Create Undead to create a vampire at minimal HD. Rebuke them so that you control them. Order them to Turn you into a vampire, and then release you from it's control (as your master), or just kill it. Make a new cool guy vampire slave with more HD and power. Treat them damn well, or take Leadership/Under Leadership. Have a priest true res you later if you don't want to be undead yourself.
Axiomatic_vampire
10-28-07, 02:18 AM Hmm........I thought I saw somewhere that you can make use the Create Undead spell to get zombies with the Corpse template and such. Otherwise, that makes the character's options for getting undead he wants at the mercy of the DM, which is stupid (and just the way Wizards works ><).

To an extent, you can create your own corpses with planar binding spells. Just make sure you've got some magical traps and whatnot to kill whatever you summon.
Decinious
10-28-07, 11:37 AM Unfortunately, there is no book that I know of in which it is written that you can make corpse creatures using Create Undead. So, it is completely up to the DM, to allow you to make them via this spell. Compare them power wise and make them the caster level your DM thinks they are worth. Keep in mind the lack of +LA since BoVD is 3.0, we have them pegged at +1 LA, if your DM tries to argue them up to +2 dig up the gravetouched ghoul template, from the Libris...
tuberov
10-28-07, 04:19 PM Well, the thing is that I am the DM of this campaign, but I don't want it to look like I'm tailoring this to be too advantageous for my character while the other characters aren't getting equal perks. I hate it when one person seems so much more powerful than the rest of the party, builds resentment and all.
Axiomatic_vampire
10-29-07, 02:08 PM Well, the thing is that I am the DM of this campaign, but I don't want it to look like I'm tailoring this to be too advantageous for my character while the other characters aren't getting equal perks. I hate it when one person seems so much more powerful than the rest of the party, builds resentment and all.

You're the DM and a DMPC? This is just me, but my rule on that has always been to have a character commensurate with the weakest, least optimized character in the party, to never do anything with him even to cause the phrase RAW to come up, and to never, NEVER have minions. Players don't want to watch you NPC all the enemies, then PC your necromancer, then PC all your raised zombies, then finally get a turn.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tuberov 10-24-07, 07:18 PM	Is there any way to increase the number of hit dice that a cleric can rebuke? My necromancer is looking for a big, "bodyguard," and I'm wondering if his hit dice is the max level of hit dice I can use as said, "bodyguard." Also, how do you get a corpse creature out of the Create Undead spell? Is there a supplemental chart somewhere or something that expands the original spell's chart. I know it's the wrong forum to ask in, but I figure it as a bonus question :P.
dman11235 10-24-07, 07:33 PM	Deathbound Domain (SpC), and an epic feat. Those are the only ways I know. EDIT: those increase the max total. I know of no way to get a max HD for single undead, nor did I know that there was a max for single undead you could control.
tuberov 10-24-07, 07:48 PM	Yeah, the maximum undead a cleric can control is his level (I probably should of said control instead of rebuke, huh :pbbbtt:). Sorry. I don't think that the control up to twice your level in hit points from a spell cast applies to create undead since that spell doesn't give you automatic control.
dman11235 10-24-07, 10:49 PM	There's a limit to the max number of HD you can control, and that is 2xlevel. Deathbound increases it to 3x, and the epic feat is 10x. I don't know of anything that increases the max HD of the undead you can control. Check the Consolidated Lists archive. There may be something in Libris Mortis, being the book of the dead and all.
tuberov 10-24-07, 11:21 PM	Right. In the Player's Handbook, it says that you can control no more than your cleric level worth of undead using the turn/rebuke class feature. The Animate Dead spell let's you control two times your hit dice in undead (three times if you get the deathbound domain). I think that's about as clear as I can distinguish the two from each other.
strenoth 10-25-07, 10:33 AM	you have multiple pools of undead HD you can control. Rebuking pool. Animate Dead pool And, IIRC, the spell 'control undead' has its own pool. you can not use multiple pools on the same creature, but you could have 3 body guards, one for each pool of HD you have available.
tuberov 10-25-07, 07:13 PM	But with Animate Dead, you can't get very good bodyguards, as they are only skeletons and zombies. Good meat shields to an extent but that's all.
tuberov 10-26-07, 10:39 AM	Also, how do you get a corpse creature out of the Create Undead spell? Is there a supplemental chart somewhere or something that expands the original spell's chart. I know it's the wrong forum to ask in, but I figure it as a bonus question :P. Anyone have any insight on this part? I know it's possible, but I want to explain exactly how and maybe be able to point to it in a book for proof. Thanks.
Goldenmaxter 10-27-07, 10:35 PM	The Book of Exalted Deeds has a feat on clerics turning undead, so I would check out the Book of Vile Darkness, since it is the polar opposite of the BoED. Just a suggestion.
Axiomatic_vampire 10-27-07, 11:44 PM	Commanding more undead than you're supposed to get is a tricky one. It doesn't go by your effective turning level, it's actual cleric level as per page 159 of the PH. Best you can do is tweak up your turning level to be twice your actual level, allowing you to get an undead at least THAT beefy (otherwise they are rebuked, not commanded) As far as greater and normal create undead spells, as far as I know the tables are the tables. They give you those undead, that's it. Keep in mind that there's a mummy template in Libris Mortis, a DM might let you apply that to a body with Create Undead, rather than generating a standard MM mummy. That can be your ticket to some awesome help, as long as it's equal HD, and you can boost your turning level high enough.
tuberov 10-28-07, 12:02 AM	Hmm........I thought I saw somewhere that you can make use the Create Undead spell to get zombies with the Corpse template and such. Otherwise, that makes the character's options for getting undead he wants at the mercy of the DM, which is stupid (and just the way Wizards works ><). Well, my character is going to become a true necromancer (bad choice, I know, but I've always wanted to play one). I'm not sure if I'm going to get his turning level up high enough to control something the same as his hit dice, and it doesn't really seem worth it if I'm at the mercy of the DM for beyond-basic undead. Such a waste. :banghead:
zeratulcraft 10-28-07, 12:02 AM	Rod of Undead Mastery or something from Libris Mortis does something awesome to your control cap, think it doubles it. Might do more, check it out.
Beckettvampire 10-28-07, 12:16 AM	Use Create Undead to create a vampire at minimal HD. Rebuke them so that you control them. Order them to Turn you into a vampire, and then release you from it's control (as your master), or just kill it. Make a new cool guy vampire slave with more HD and power. Treat them damn well, or take Leadership/Under Leadership. Have a priest true res you later if you don't want to be undead yourself.
Axiomatic_vampire 10-28-07, 02:18 AM	Hmm........I thought I saw somewhere that you can make use the Create Undead spell to get zombies with the Corpse template and such. Otherwise, that makes the character's options for getting undead he wants at the mercy of the DM, which is stupid (and just the way Wizards works ><). To an extent, you can create your own corpses with planar binding spells. Just make sure you've got some magical traps and whatnot to kill whatever you summon.
Decinious 10-28-07, 11:37 AM	Unfortunately, there is no book that I know of in which it is written that you can make corpse creatures using Create Undead. So, it is completely up to the DM, to allow you to make them via this spell. Compare them power wise and make them the caster level your DM thinks they are worth. Keep in mind the lack of +LA since BoVD is 3.0, we have them pegged at +1 LA, if your DM tries to argue them up to +2 dig up the gravetouched ghoul template, from the Libris...
tuberov 10-28-07, 04:19 PM	Well, the thing is that I am the DM of this campaign, but I don't want it to look like I'm tailoring this to be too advantageous for my character while the other characters aren't getting equal perks. I hate it when one person seems so much more powerful than the rest of the party, builds resentment and all.
Axiomatic_vampire 10-29-07, 02:08 PM	Well, the thing is that I am the DM of this campaign, but I don't want it to look like I'm tailoring this to be too advantageous for my character while the other characters aren't getting equal perks. I hate it when one person seems so much more powerful than the rest of the party, builds resentment and all. You're the DM and a DMPC? This is just me, but my rule on that has always been to have a character commensurate with the weakest, least optimized character in the party, to never do anything with him even to cause the phrase RAW to come up, and to never, NEVER have minions. Players don't want to watch you NPC all the enemies, then PC your necromancer, then PC all your raised zombies, then finally get a turn.