Climb as grapple??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Climb as grapple??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Visigo7h
09-16-07, 07:10 PM Ok, so last night we were fighting an Huge air elemental on the side of a mountain, and one of our characters (A samurai) decided he would try to make a jumping attempt to climb it using a swift action Jump (from a level of Warblade he took) and then use his blink shirt to dimensional door back to the ledge. None of us knew anything about a rule allowing him to climb it so we said he would have to do a charging, jumping grapple. He decided to try anyways but he failed. And he fell 450 ft to the earth... well needless to say he was rather hurt (he just survived the damage from falling but failed the save against massive damage on a natural 1). Needless to say our Samurai was less then happy and he complained about the ruling the DM made.

Now my question is does anyone know about a use of Climb to grab onto and Climb a huge creature? And with falling in this case, what rules do you use for what they can and can not do?
magicbehere
09-16-07, 07:23 PM Now my question is does anyone know about a use of Climb to grab onto and Climb a huge creature? And with falling in this case, what rules do you use for what they can and can not do?

It would be a grapple, but I would rule you cant gropple an air elemental regardless of its size. Also why didnt he just D Door back to the ledge when he missed. You dont fall the entire distance of the height in one round.
Visigo7h
09-16-07, 07:40 PM The DM decided to use the arial combat rules which was you need to make a dc 20 reflex save to regain the ability to make actions.
FponkDamn
09-17-07, 03:37 AM It makes about as much sense to be able to grapple a creature made of air as it does to be able to damage it with swords.

Wait! You can damage it with swords!

Air elementals are silly. Really, they should have the incorporeal subtype, but according to the MM, I can punch a creature made of air just fine.

- Johnny
Knightblde
09-17-07, 07:54 AM Actually you do fall the entire distance in one round. It is listed somewhere in the FAQ. I think they figured it out to be about 1500 ft that you can fall in 6 seconds.

I would rule like this
1) Jump check to reach the creature
2) Grapple check to hold on to the creature

Your DM did the 'right' thing by telling the character what he had to do and then letting the PC make the decision. Just because it did not work does not make it wrong. I think the player needs to suck it up that he made a bad decision.
KitsuneSoup
09-17-07, 09:20 AM None of us knew anything about a rule allowing him to climb it so we said he would have to do a charging, jumping grapple. He decided to try anyways but he failed.

Your DM did the 'right' thing by telling the character what he had to do and then letting the PC make the decision. Just because it did not work does not make it wrong. I think the player needs to suck it up that he made a bad decision.

Proper DM action. Debate at table resulted in a clear declaration of both action and consequence. Action was attempted, failed, consequence ensued. Nothing was done improperly, ethically.

However, if I'm looking at this right:
1.) The party is on a ledge.
2.) The air elemental is over the edge, flying, attacking the party.

The samurai/warblade/totemist decided to:

1.) Use his swift action to envoke Sudden Leap to make a free jump move to land on the air elemental.

2.) Use his standard action to... what was he trying to do? Hurt it? Grapple it?

3.) Use his totem-bound blink shirt soulmeld to dimension door as his move action to return to the ledge.

Which is fine... he jumps, make a Jump check DC 10 (presuming the elemental was 10' from the edge), making a Tumble check so he isn't affected by an AoO (I don't know how he makes a Tumble check... maybe he twists in the air?). Assuming he wanted to hurt it, he could then make his standard attack, but not a full attack, because he needs his move action to activate a blink shirt to get back to the ledge. Even if he misses his attack, he can take his move action to use the ability, and return to the ground safely.

If he was trying to grab it, he provokes an AoO, makes his grapple checks, and checks for success. I don't know what he'd do with it when he had it, since there's no way to pin it and no leverage to force it go in a direction. But even still, he fails to grab the air elemental, and has a move action left to... use his blink shirt.

I'd let him do either one, since he can't do it every round, and after the second time the air elemental is just going to move above the party and attack down (a medium creature can't jump more than 8' in the air), using Flyby Attack to swoop and attack.

I'm not certain a Reflex check was in order, because he wasn't actually engaging in aerial combat (which assumes that both players begin and end their turn in the air). He could have done the same thing on the ground to attack someone 10' away.

But in the long run, you made the ruling, he agreed, he deals with it.

KitsuneSoup
Dheran
09-18-07, 11:52 AM Actually you do fall the entire distance in one round. It is listed somewhere in the FAQ. I think they figured it out to be about 1500 ft that you can fall in 6 seconds. You're right about falling the entire 450' distance in one round, but wrong about the details.
You drop about 500' in the first round of falling.
Each subsequent round you're at terminal falling velocity and drop 1200' more.
Dheran
09-18-07, 12:04 PM Ok, so last night we were fighting an Huge air elemental on the side of a mountain, and one of our characters (A samurai) decided he would try to make a jumping attempt to climb it using a swift action Jump (from a level of Warblade he took) and then use his blink shirt to dimensional door back to the ledge. None of us knew anything about a rule allowing him to climb it so we said he would have to do a charging, jumping grapple. Was this Samurai bigger than medium size? Because this would never work otherwise.If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. The rules generally don't allow you to enter an enemy's square. Grappling provides one of the exceptions. But a medium size Samurai can't successfully hold a huge creature for a grapple, and thus wouldn't be able to stay in that enemy's square; falling is guaranteed.
tafkamhokie
09-18-07, 01:04 PM This is something I have had problems with in the past too. By the rules, it is impossible to grapple a huge air elemental unless you are at least large.

But at some point, the size difference is enough that you are climbing and holding on instead of grappling.

I had a case where the party was fighting a huge animated object (it was a boathouse on stilts). One of the players wanted to climb up the side of the boathouse and get inside. It had a rope ladder dangling from the door...so it was certainly doable. But it was an animated object that was pitching and moving and trying to hit you at the same time.

A climb check didn't seem right because the boathouse was directly opposing the check. But a grapple check didn't seem right either since that is functionally impossible within the rules.

What about a halfling jumping from a ledge onto the back of a troll and hanging on while stabbing it? You cannot really call that a grapple (and if you did, it would be virtually impossible to accomplish because of the troll's size and strength).

When dealing with the idea of grabbing and/or climbing a big creature, the rules seem to fall apart. Climb doesn't cover it and neither does grapple.
Vegepygmy
09-19-07, 03:56 AM When dealing with the idea of grabbing and/or climbing a big creature, the rules seem to fall apart. Climb doesn't cover it and neither does grapple.I disagree. Using your animated boathouse example, I think Climb would have worked just fine.

I would simply have set the DC at 10 (rope ladder = ship's rigging) + 5 (boathouse pitching about) = 15. Remember that the PC would be climbing at 1/4 speed unless he took a -5 on his Climb check, and if he doesn't climb far enough to get inside the boathouse before the boathouse's turn, it can "oppose" him by attacking (PC gets no Dex bonus to AC), and if he takes damage, he has to make another Climb check to avoid falling.

That's difficult enough that most PCs who haven't taken any ranks in Climb will either (1) not try it or (2) very possibly fail (and I'm of the opinion that those who do take ranks in skills like Climb should get to do cool things like this in combat, so it doesn't bother me that it's not all that difficult for someone with a +10 or +15 Climb modifier).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Visigo7h 09-16-07, 07:10 PM	Ok, so last night we were fighting an Huge air elemental on the side of a mountain, and one of our characters (A samurai) decided he would try to make a jumping attempt to climb it using a swift action Jump (from a level of Warblade he took) and then use his blink shirt to dimensional door back to the ledge. None of us knew anything about a rule allowing him to climb it so we said he would have to do a charging, jumping grapple. He decided to try anyways but he failed. And he fell 450 ft to the earth... well needless to say he was rather hurt (he just survived the damage from falling but failed the save against massive damage on a natural 1). Needless to say our Samurai was less then happy and he complained about the ruling the DM made. Now my question is does anyone know about a use of Climb to grab onto and Climb a huge creature? And with falling in this case, what rules do you use for what they can and can not do?
magicbehere 09-16-07, 07:23 PM	Now my question is does anyone know about a use of Climb to grab onto and Climb a huge creature? And with falling in this case, what rules do you use for what they can and can not do? It would be a grapple, but I would rule you cant gropple an air elemental regardless of its size. Also why didnt he just D Door back to the ledge when he missed. You dont fall the entire distance of the height in one round.
Visigo7h 09-16-07, 07:40 PM	The DM decided to use the arial combat rules which was you need to make a dc 20 reflex save to regain the ability to make actions.
FponkDamn 09-17-07, 03:37 AM	It makes about as much sense to be able to grapple a creature made of air as it does to be able to damage it with swords. Wait! You can damage it with swords! Air elementals are silly. Really, they should have the incorporeal subtype, but according to the MM, I can punch a creature made of air just fine. - Johnny
Knightblde 09-17-07, 07:54 AM	Actually you do fall the entire distance in one round. It is listed somewhere in the FAQ. I think they figured it out to be about 1500 ft that you can fall in 6 seconds. I would rule like this 1) Jump check to reach the creature 2) Grapple check to hold on to the creature Your DM did the 'right' thing by telling the character what he had to do and then letting the PC make the decision. Just because it did not work does not make it wrong. I think the player needs to suck it up that he made a bad decision.
KitsuneSoup 09-17-07, 09:20 AM	None of us knew anything about a rule allowing him to climb it so we said he would have to do a charging, jumping grapple. He decided to try anyways but he failed. Your DM did the 'right' thing by telling the character what he had to do and then letting the PC make the decision. Just because it did not work does not make it wrong. I think the player needs to suck it up that he made a bad decision. Proper DM action. Debate at table resulted in a clear declaration of both action and consequence. Action was attempted, failed, consequence ensued. Nothing was done improperly, ethically. However, if I'm looking at this right: 1.) The party is on a ledge. 2.) The air elemental is over the edge, flying, attacking the party. The samurai/warblade/totemist decided to: 1.) Use his swift action to envoke Sudden Leap to make a free jump move to land on the air elemental. 2.) Use his standard action to... what was he trying to do? Hurt it? Grapple it? 3.) Use his totem-bound blink shirt soulmeld to dimension door as his move action to return to the ledge. Which is fine... he jumps, make a Jump check DC 10 (presuming the elemental was 10' from the edge), making a Tumble check so he isn't affected by an AoO (I don't know how he makes a Tumble check... maybe he twists in the air?). Assuming he wanted to hurt it, he could then make his standard attack, but not a full attack, because he needs his move action to activate a blink shirt to get back to the ledge. Even if he misses his attack, he can take his move action to use the ability, and return to the ground safely. If he was trying to grab it, he provokes an AoO, makes his grapple checks, and checks for success. I don't know what he'd do with it when he had it, since there's no way to pin it and no leverage to force it go in a direction. But even still, he fails to grab the air elemental, and has a move action left to... use his blink shirt. I'd let him do either one, since he can't do it every round, and after the second time the air elemental is just going to move above the party and attack down (a medium creature can't jump more than 8' in the air), using Flyby Attack to swoop and attack. I'm not certain a Reflex check was in order, because he wasn't actually engaging in aerial combat (which assumes that both players begin and end their turn in the air). He could have done the same thing on the ground to attack someone 10' away. But in the long run, you made the ruling, he agreed, he deals with it. KitsuneSoup
Dheran 09-18-07, 11:52 AM	Actually you do fall the entire distance in one round. It is listed somewhere in the FAQ. I think they figured it out to be about 1500 ft that you can fall in 6 seconds. You're right about falling the entire 450' distance in one round, but wrong about the details. You drop about 500' in the first round of falling. Each subsequent round you're at terminal falling velocity and drop 1200' more.
Dheran 09-18-07, 12:04 PM	Ok, so last night we were fighting an Huge air elemental on the side of a mountain, and one of our characters (A samurai) decided he would try to make a jumping attempt to climb it using a swift action Jump (from a level of Warblade he took) and then use his blink shirt to dimensional door back to the ledge. None of us knew anything about a rule allowing him to climb it so we said he would have to do a charging, jumping grapple. Was this Samurai bigger than medium size? Because this would never work otherwise.If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. The rules generally don't allow you to enter an enemy's square. Grappling provides one of the exceptions. But a medium size Samurai can't successfully hold a huge creature for a grapple, and thus wouldn't be able to stay in that enemy's square; falling is guaranteed.
tafkamhokie 09-18-07, 01:04 PM	This is something I have had problems with in the past too. By the rules, it is impossible to grapple a huge air elemental unless you are at least large. But at some point, the size difference is enough that you are climbing and holding on instead of grappling. I had a case where the party was fighting a huge animated object (it was a boathouse on stilts). One of the players wanted to climb up the side of the boathouse and get inside. It had a rope ladder dangling from the door...so it was certainly doable. But it was an animated object that was pitching and moving and trying to hit you at the same time. A climb check didn't seem right because the boathouse was directly opposing the check. But a grapple check didn't seem right either since that is functionally impossible within the rules. What about a halfling jumping from a ledge onto the back of a troll and hanging on while stabbing it? You cannot really call that a grapple (and if you did, it would be virtually impossible to accomplish because of the troll's size and strength). When dealing with the idea of grabbing and/or climbing a big creature, the rules seem to fall apart. Climb doesn't cover it and neither does grapple.
Vegepygmy 09-19-07, 03:56 AM	When dealing with the idea of grabbing and/or climbing a big creature, the rules seem to fall apart. Climb doesn't cover it and neither does grapple.I disagree. Using your animated boathouse example, I think Climb would have worked just fine. I would simply have set the DC at 10 (rope ladder = ship's rigging) + 5 (boathouse pitching about) = 15. Remember that the PC would be climbing at 1/4 speed unless he took a -5 on his Climb check, and if he doesn't climb far enough to get inside the boathouse before the boathouse's turn, it can "oppose" him by attacking (PC gets no Dex bonus to AC), and if he takes damage, he has to make another Climb check to avoid falling. That's difficult enough that most PCs who haven't taken any ranks in Climb will either (1) not try it or (2) very possibly fail (and I'm of the opinion that those who do take ranks in skills like Climb should get to do cool things like this in combat, so it doesn't bother me that it's not all that difficult for someone with a +10 or +15 Climb modifier).