Climb vs. Spider Climb [Archive] - Wizards Community

Climb vs. Spider Climb [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jason Snyder
06-13-07, 09:06 AM The description of the spell Spider Climb says:

The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner. The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet; furthermore, it need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). A spider climbing creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

Sounds logical.

The PHB (but not the SRD) says this about the Climb skill:

A creature with a climb speed (such as a monstrous spider, or a character under the effect of a Spider Climb spell) has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it always can choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

This seems... odd.

Question: The fact that the PHB explicitly includes Spider Climb in this rule seems to imply that the more restrictive rules in the Climb section apply. Which rule takes precedence? I'm assuming the spell description, but is there some official rule on that?

Observation: According to this rule a small spider has almost a 50% chance of not being able to climb up a rough wall and it cannot go up a smooth wall at all. They also can't hang from the ceiling. This will be a great relief to arachnophobes that that spider climbing on the wall of their house really isn't there because spiders can't climb smooth walls, nor hang on the ceiling.
Omega_Grey
06-13-07, 10:10 AM I am under the assumption that while under the effect of spider climb (or even just having a natural climb speed) you automatically succeed at all non-extraordinary climb checks, but should a situation ever come up where you needed to make one you get that handy little +8 to it.

Other then that I'm afraid I don't see what is so confusing. Sorry.
foxtail
06-13-07, 10:20 AM I think spider climb is specifically mentioned because it's the only way under core rules for a PC to gain a climb speed. But the spell's description itself isn't just a repeat of the climb speed rules, it mentions ways in which the spell is superior to a natural climb speed. So, the spell takes precedence.
madbliza
06-13-07, 12:30 PM A small insect and large monstrous spider have obvious physical differences that make climbing different. Thinking about it, a large spider is not going to be able to find footholds that a smaller spider can. Obviously, a tiny spider can still climb a house wall but not a pane of glass.

No matter how you climb all the climb rules apply. The only reason that they mention the Spider Climb spell in the description you posted is because that spell gives the character a climb speed and are thereby subject to the following rules in addition to the regular climb rules.
ShinAkuma2
06-13-07, 12:59 PM When you get hit while climbing, you need to make a check to remain stuck to the wall. Spider Climb gives you the +8 here.

The walls of your house aren't totally smooth, unless they're made of glass or something, so your example doesn't really work.
Jason Snyder
06-14-07, 07:15 AM When you get hit while climbing, you need to make a check to remain stuck to the wall. Spider Climb gives you the +8 here.

Fair enough... but what would the DC of a climb check for a person with Spider Climb hanging from the ceiling be? The examples in the skills section under Climb are all assuming that it is impossible to hang from the ceiling (without handholds) or to climb "perfectly smooth" walls. Let's be generous and say that the DC is only 25 for hanging on the ceiling. So a level 20 mage with no points in climb (since it is a cross class skill) casts Spider Climb on himself. He climbs up a wall or ceiling. He gets poked by a kobolds dart for 1 pt of damage. He now has to roll a 17 or higher to avoid falling?

The walls of your house aren't totally smooth, unless they're made of glass or something, so your example doesn't really work.

Uh, are you being serious? Yes, painted sheetrock is not completely smooth on some microscopic level, but then, neither is glass. But I'm guessing that for the purposes of the PHB's reference to a "perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface cannot be climbed" that it will do. Or are you suggesting that a D&D character, with high a high enough climb skill would be able to climb up a wall as smooth as sheetrock without magic, tools, or something opposite to press against?
Ulandorf_TheBlue
06-14-07, 12:42 PM not to be a jerk, but some species of spiders can climb on extremely smooth surfaces such as glass due to minute hairs on their appendages...kinda like Spidey (basically how they got the idea to explain spidey climbing walls in the movies)
ShinAkuma2
06-14-07, 12:46 PM Uh, are you being serious? Yes, painted sheetrock is not completely smooth on some microscopic level, but then, neither is glass.

Glass is still smoother than sheetrock. To the little spider, sheetrock has plenty of footholds. The glass, not as much.

Or are you suggesting that a D&D character, with high a high enough climb skill would be able to climb up a wall as smooth as sheetrock without magic, tools, or something opposite to press against?

Yes, I am suggesting that enough ranks in a skill allows characters to see things that are the size of a flea from 50 yards away, jump 10 feet straight up, hear a whispered conversation from across a busy street, and yes, climb up an otherwise extremely smooth surface. This is D&D; enough ranks can get you some pretty crazy abilities.

Oh, and as for the DC for the ceiling or a smooth wall:

70 A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface
100 A perfectly smooth, flat, overhang or ceiling

From the SRD. So yeah, don't get hit while Spider-Climbing.
obrysii
06-14-07, 12:50 PM Glass is still smoother than sheetrock. To the little spider, sheetrock has plenty of footholds. The glass, not as much.

Spiders in real life tend to have no real problem climbing glass. Ants have literally no problem, at least.
ShinAkuma2
06-14-07, 07:09 PM I dunno, I've never watched a spider climbing on glass...but I guess that might be because I feel the need to remove them immediately upon sight. I think I'm becoming arachnophobic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jason Snyder 06-13-07, 09:06 AM	The description of the spell Spider Climb says: The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner. The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet; furthermore, it need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). A spider climbing creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing. Sounds logical. The PHB (but not the SRD) says this about the Climb skill: A creature with a climb speed (such as a monstrous spider, or a character under the effect of a Spider Climb spell) has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it always can choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing. This seems... odd. Question: The fact that the PHB explicitly includes Spider Climb in this rule seems to imply that the more restrictive rules in the Climb section apply. Which rule takes precedence? I'm assuming the spell description, but is there some official rule on that? Observation: According to this rule a small spider has almost a 50% chance of not being able to climb up a rough wall and it cannot go up a smooth wall at all. They also can't hang from the ceiling. This will be a great relief to arachnophobes that that spider climbing on the wall of their house really isn't there because spiders can't climb smooth walls, nor hang on the ceiling.
Omega_Grey 06-13-07, 10:10 AM	I am under the assumption that while under the effect of spider climb (or even just having a natural climb speed) you automatically succeed at all non-extraordinary climb checks, but should a situation ever come up where you needed to make one you get that handy little +8 to it. Other then that I'm afraid I don't see what is so confusing. Sorry.
foxtail 06-13-07, 10:20 AM	I think spider climb is specifically mentioned because it's the only way under core rules for a PC to gain a climb speed. But the spell's description itself isn't just a repeat of the climb speed rules, it mentions ways in which the spell is superior to a natural climb speed. So, the spell takes precedence.
madbliza 06-13-07, 12:30 PM	A small insect and large monstrous spider have obvious physical differences that make climbing different. Thinking about it, a large spider is not going to be able to find footholds that a smaller spider can. Obviously, a tiny spider can still climb a house wall but not a pane of glass. No matter how you climb all the climb rules apply. The only reason that they mention the Spider Climb spell in the description you posted is because that spell gives the character a climb speed and are thereby subject to the following rules in addition to the regular climb rules.
ShinAkuma2 06-13-07, 12:59 PM	When you get hit while climbing, you need to make a check to remain stuck to the wall. Spider Climb gives you the +8 here. The walls of your house aren't totally smooth, unless they're made of glass or something, so your example doesn't really work.
Jason Snyder 06-14-07, 07:15 AM	When you get hit while climbing, you need to make a check to remain stuck to the wall. Spider Climb gives you the +8 here. Fair enough... but what would the DC of a climb check for a person with Spider Climb hanging from the ceiling be? The examples in the skills section under Climb are all assuming that it is impossible to hang from the ceiling (without handholds) or to climb "perfectly smooth" walls. Let's be generous and say that the DC is only 25 for hanging on the ceiling. So a level 20 mage with no points in climb (since it is a cross class skill) casts Spider Climb on himself. He climbs up a wall or ceiling. He gets poked by a kobolds dart for 1 pt of damage. He now has to roll a 17 or higher to avoid falling? The walls of your house aren't totally smooth, unless they're made of glass or something, so your example doesn't really work. Uh, are you being serious? Yes, painted sheetrock is not completely smooth on some microscopic level, but then, neither is glass. But I'm guessing that for the purposes of the PHB's reference to a "perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface cannot be climbed" that it will do. Or are you suggesting that a D&D character, with high a high enough climb skill would be able to climb up a wall as smooth as sheetrock without magic, tools, or something opposite to press against?
Ulandorf_TheBlue 06-14-07, 12:42 PM	not to be a jerk, but some species of spiders can climb on extremely smooth surfaces such as glass due to minute hairs on their appendages...kinda like Spidey (basically how they got the idea to explain spidey climbing walls in the movies)
ShinAkuma2 06-14-07, 12:46 PM	Uh, are you being serious? Yes, painted sheetrock is not completely smooth on some microscopic level, but then, neither is glass. Glass is still smoother than sheetrock. To the little spider, sheetrock has plenty of footholds. The glass, not as much. Or are you suggesting that a D&D character, with high a high enough climb skill would be able to climb up a wall as smooth as sheetrock without magic, tools, or something opposite to press against? Yes, I am suggesting that enough ranks in a skill allows characters to see things that are the size of a flea from 50 yards away, jump 10 feet straight up, hear a whispered conversation from across a busy street, and yes, climb up an otherwise extremely smooth surface. This is D&D; enough ranks can get you some pretty crazy abilities. Oh, and as for the DC for the ceiling or a smooth wall: 70 A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface 100 A perfectly smooth, flat, overhang or ceiling From the SRD. So yeah, don't get hit while Spider-Climbing.
obrysii 06-14-07, 12:50 PM	Glass is still smoother than sheetrock. To the little spider, sheetrock has plenty of footholds. The glass, not as much. Spiders in real life tend to have no real problem climbing glass. Ants have literally no problem, at least.
ShinAkuma2 06-14-07, 07:09 PM	I dunno, I've never watched a spider climbing on glass...but I guess that might be because I feel the need to remove them immediately upon sight. I think I'm becoming arachnophobic.