Cloak Dance, 5-ft Step and Total Concealment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cloak Dance, 5-ft Step and Total Concealment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Esponer
07-07-07, 01:16 PM CLOAK DANCE [GENERAL]
You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not.
Prerequisites: Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.
Benefit: You can take a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) to obscure your exact position. Until your next turn, you have concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment). Alternatively, you can take a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions) to entirely obscure your exact position. Until your next action, you have total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment).

— From the Expanded Psionics Handbook (page 44) and System Reference Documents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance)
_________________________

My question:
A character uses their full-round action to "entirely obscure" their exact position as per Cloak Dance, gaining total concealment. As they have not moved, they are free to take one 5-ft step before ending their turn. What precisely is their status with respect to vulnerability?

In particular:

Does the character still enjoy total concealment? (A question of the definition of "Until your next action" and its relationship with the 5-ft. step, which is "no action" according to the Player's Handbook.)
Do other creatures know which square the character is in? (A question of whether or not the 5-ft. step essentially fooled observers so much that they must guess which of eight — or nine — squares the character occupies.)
Can the character be victim of a targeted spell? (Requesting clarification of the nature of total concealment, primarily.)
Will an attack of opportunity (not listed in the Player's Handbook's list of actions) or an immediate action (listed as an action post hoc) remove the total concealment?
Do observers have line of sight to the character? (Dealing with the logic of "If you… [do not have] line of sight [a target] is considered to have total concealment from you".)

Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

— Also located at the System Reference Documents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment)
bigbythewise
07-07-07, 02:10 PM CLOAK DANCE [GENERAL]
You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not.
Prerequisites: Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.
Benefit: You can take a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) to obscure your exact position. Until your next turn, you have concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment). Alternatively, you can take a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions) to entirely obscure your exact position. Until your next action, you have total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment).

— From the Expanded Psionics Handbook (page 44) and System Reference Documents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance)
_________________________

My question:
A character uses their full-round action to "entirely obscure" their exact position as per Cloak Dance, gaining total concealment. As they have not moved, they are free to take one 5-ft step before ending their turn. What precisely is their status with respect to vulnerability?

In particular:

Does the character still enjoy total concealment? (A question of the definition of "Until your next action" and its relationship with the 5-ft. step, which is "no action" according to the Player's Handbook.)
Do other creatures know which square the character is in? (A question of whether or not the 5-ft. step essentially fooled observers so much that they must guess which of eight — or nine — squares the character occupies.)
Can the character be victim of a targeted spell? (Requesting clarification of the nature of total concealment, primarily.)
Will an attack of opportunity (not listed in the Player's Handbook's list of actions) or an immediate action (listed as an action post hoc) remove the total concealment?
Do observers have line of sight to the character? (Dealing with the logic of "If you… [do not have] line of sight [a target] is considered to have total concealment from you".)

1. I think yes, because if you can use a move action to gain normal concealment, then you should have a chance to use remaining standard action to still move on while concealed. So a 5 ft step would not break Total Concealment.
2. If you have Total Concealment, then no.
3. If you have Total Concealment, then no.
4. If it's an attack, then yes, no matter what type of action it is.
5. If you have Total Concealment, then no.
Esponer
07-07-07, 02:19 PM Thank you for your response, bigbythewise. Do you know the rules source for your answer to question four?
bigbythewise
07-07-07, 02:30 PM It's coming from general rule about Total Concealment and Targeting, that is case 2,3 and 5. Case 4 is pretty logical and the first one is my assumption only. :)
Lucas Blackstone
07-08-07, 03:18 AM 1. Yes, they enjoy total concealment because the 5 foot step doesn't have an action type associated with it. It's a movement that you can do as part of other things. It wouldn't be violating the "next action" restriction.

2. They know what square you are in. You would benefit from a 50 percent miss chance though. There are many forms of concealment in D&D. Some of them make it difficult to tell where someone is, and others do not. A cloak swirling around you doesn't make the cloak and you invisible or harder to see. It makes it more difficult to land a blow on you because the cloak is distracting and whipping around, tangling up weapon blows and the likes. Concealment from other sources may very well make the square you are in difficult to determine.

3. Targeting with a spell would be legitimate since this form of concealment doesn't block line of sight or line of effect. If it was a ranged touch attack, the 50 percent miss chance would kick in again though.

4. I don't know of a rule that says AoO's are actions. Common sense dictates that it is some form of action but the spirit of the feat in question also implies that the concealment is to last until you go again. So I don't know what the intent is behind the feat and AoO's. To err on the side of logic I would rule that an AoO breaks the concealment.

5. Yes, they have line of sight to you. They don't know where you are in your square, but they know what square you are in ( see above).
Alcalientre
07-08-07, 07:37 AM A cloak swirling around you doesn't make the cloak and you invisible or harder to see. It makes it more difficult to land a blow on you because the cloak is distracting and whipping around, tangling up weapon blows and the likes.

I don't believe that this is the idea of the feat. It does not even require you to be wearing a cloak. You are only thinking of the article of clothing, whereas I think of Klingon Bird of Preys... The feat description reads, "You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not." It does, literally, cloak your position.

The definition of total concealment clearly states that when you don't have line of sight to a target, the target has total concealment. You cannot see them. It is impossible to detect the movements of a character with total concealment visually unless they are disturbing the medium they are moving through.

So...
1) A 5 ft step is not an action.
2) It is difficult to detect your movements, as stated above. I would allow the observer to make a spot check, with a DC based on your surroundings.
3) You cannot be targeted unless the caster has some other way of determining your location.
4) An AoO is a melee attack. A melee attack is an action. Therefore, a AoO is an action.
5) No.
Nom
07-08-07, 08:06 AM Does the character still enjoy total concealment? (A question of the definition of "Until your next action" and its relationship with the 5-ft. step, which is "no action" according to the Player's Handbook.)

Occasionally the rules get sloppy and use "action" as a synonym for "turn to act" (ie turn). This would seem to me to be one of those occasions (others include combat expertise and the delayed action rules).

Do other creatures know which square the character is in? (A question of whether or not the 5-ft. step essentially fooled observers so much that they must guess which of eight — or nine — squares the character occupies.)

You have total concealment thus they cannot see you (which is the definition of total concealment). However, they know which square you were in when they lost sight of you, and thus might be able to guess where you are now.

Can the character be victim of a targeted spell? (Requesting clarification of the nature of total concealment, primarily.)

You have total concealment, so no.

Will an attack of opportunity (not listed in the Player's Handbook's list of actions) or an immediate action (listed as an action post hoc) remove the total concealment?

Rules don't seem to cover this case. An AoO is quite clearly not an action, so a simple reading would suggest not. Similarly, the rules for the normal form of cloak dance don't suggest that an attack voids your concealment.

Considering that the ability is purely mundane (pre-reqs Hide and Perform), I'd rule that the normal effects of attacking apply - ie causing you to become observed. However, the text doesn't say this.

In any case, attacking via melee will allow the target to pinpoint you if adjacent or determine your direction otherwise (see "invisibility" rules in DMG glossary).

Do observers have line of sight to the character? (Dealing with the logic of "If you… [do not have] line of sight [a target] is considered to have total concealment from you".)

Of course not. You can't have LoS to something you can't see.
Lucas Blackstone
07-08-07, 08:10 AM Hmmm. Now I can't remember the feat I was thinking of where you use your cloak for an AC bonus and a few other side tricks of which I thought this was one of.

Since there is no description on how the optical illusions work, just a flat result of what they do, it makes it difficult to tell how this feat works exactly. So a generic blanket series of answers to your questions would be..

Yes
No
No
Yes
No

The way I ( totally incorrectly) read the feat the first time was that you were using your cloak and your own bodily movements to obscure yourself from your opponents vision, which fits the prerequisites, name, and is semi logical.

But it really depends on how the feat works to determine how the concealment works. Judging by the prerequisites it's not supernatural in nature, and it's almost like it requires a hide check of sorts ( possibly to be contested by Alcalientre's aforementioned spot check). It's like the feat is only half done.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Esponer 07-07-07, 01:16 PM	CLOAK DANCE [GENERAL] You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not. Prerequisites: Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks. Benefit: You can take a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) to obscure your exact position. Until your next turn, you have concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment). Alternatively, you can take a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions) to entirely obscure your exact position. Until your next action, you have total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment). — From the Expanded Psionics Handbook (page 44) and System Reference Documents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance) _________________________ My question: A character uses their full-round action to "entirely obscure" their exact position as per Cloak Dance, gaining total concealment. As they have not moved, they are free to take one 5-ft step before ending their turn. What precisely is their status with respect to vulnerability? In particular: Does the character still enjoy total concealment? (A question of the definition of "Until your next action" and its relationship with the 5-ft. step, which is "no action" according to the Player's Handbook.) Do other creatures know which square the character is in? (A question of whether or not the 5-ft. step essentially fooled observers so much that they must guess which of eight — or nine — squares the character occupies.) Can the character be victim of a targeted spell? (Requesting clarification of the nature of total concealment, primarily.) Will an attack of opportunity (not listed in the Player's Handbook's list of actions) or an immediate action (listed as an action post hoc) remove the total concealment? Do observers have line of sight to the character? (Dealing with the logic of "If you… [do not have] line of sight [a target] is considered to have total concealment from you".) Total Concealment If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies. — Also located at the System Reference Documents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment)
bigbythewise 07-07-07, 02:10 PM	CLOAK DANCE [GENERAL] You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not. Prerequisites: Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks. Benefit: You can take a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) to obscure your exact position. Until your next turn, you have concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment). Alternatively, you can take a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions) to entirely obscure your exact position. Until your next action, you have total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalConcealment). — From the Expanded Psionics Handbook (page 44) and System Reference Documents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance) _________________________ My question: A character uses their full-round action to "entirely obscure" their exact position as per Cloak Dance, gaining total concealment. As they have not moved, they are free to take one 5-ft step before ending their turn. What precisely is their status with respect to vulnerability? In particular: Does the character still enjoy total concealment? (A question of the definition of "Until your next action" and its relationship with the 5-ft. step, which is "no action" according to the Player's Handbook.) Do other creatures know which square the character is in? (A question of whether or not the 5-ft. step essentially fooled observers so much that they must guess which of eight — or nine — squares the character occupies.) Can the character be victim of a targeted spell? (Requesting clarification of the nature of total concealment, primarily.) Will an attack of opportunity (not listed in the Player's Handbook's list of actions) or an immediate action (listed as an action post hoc) remove the total concealment? Do observers have line of sight to the character? (Dealing with the logic of "If you… [do not have] line of sight [a target] is considered to have total concealment from you".) 1. I think yes, because if you can use a move action to gain normal concealment, then you should have a chance to use remaining standard action to still move on while concealed. So a 5 ft step would not break Total Concealment. 2. If you have Total Concealment, then no. 3. If you have Total Concealment, then no. 4. If it's an attack, then yes, no matter what type of action it is. 5. If you have Total Concealment, then no.
Esponer 07-07-07, 02:19 PM	Thank you for your response, bigbythewise. Do you know the rules source for your answer to question four?
bigbythewise 07-07-07, 02:30 PM	It's coming from general rule about Total Concealment and Targeting, that is case 2,3 and 5. Case 4 is pretty logical and the first one is my assumption only. :)
Lucas Blackstone 07-08-07, 03:18 AM	1. Yes, they enjoy total concealment because the 5 foot step doesn't have an action type associated with it. It's a movement that you can do as part of other things. It wouldn't be violating the "next action" restriction. 2. They know what square you are in. You would benefit from a 50 percent miss chance though. There are many forms of concealment in D&D. Some of them make it difficult to tell where someone is, and others do not. A cloak swirling around you doesn't make the cloak and you invisible or harder to see. It makes it more difficult to land a blow on you because the cloak is distracting and whipping around, tangling up weapon blows and the likes. Concealment from other sources may very well make the square you are in difficult to determine. 3. Targeting with a spell would be legitimate since this form of concealment doesn't block line of sight or line of effect. If it was a ranged touch attack, the 50 percent miss chance would kick in again though. 4. I don't know of a rule that says AoO's are actions. Common sense dictates that it is some form of action but the spirit of the feat in question also implies that the concealment is to last until you go again. So I don't know what the intent is behind the feat and AoO's. To err on the side of logic I would rule that an AoO breaks the concealment. 5. Yes, they have line of sight to you. They don't know where you are in your square, but they know what square you are in ( see above).
Alcalientre 07-08-07, 07:37 AM	A cloak swirling around you doesn't make the cloak and you invisible or harder to see. It makes it more difficult to land a blow on you because the cloak is distracting and whipping around, tangling up weapon blows and the likes. I don't believe that this is the idea of the feat. It does not even require you to be wearing a cloak. You are only thinking of the article of clothing, whereas I think of Klingon Bird of Preys... The feat description reads, "You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not." It does, literally, cloak your position. The definition of total concealment clearly states that when you don't have line of sight to a target, the target has total concealment. You cannot see them. It is impossible to detect the movements of a character with total concealment visually unless they are disturbing the medium they are moving through. So... 1) A 5 ft step is not an action. 2) It is difficult to detect your movements, as stated above. I would allow the observer to make a spot check, with a DC based on your surroundings. 3) You cannot be targeted unless the caster has some other way of determining your location. 4) An AoO is a melee attack. A melee attack is an action. Therefore, a AoO is an action. 5) No.
Nom 07-08-07, 08:06 AM	Does the character still enjoy total concealment? (A question of the definition of "Until your next action" and its relationship with the 5-ft. step, which is "no action" according to the Player's Handbook.) Occasionally the rules get sloppy and use "action" as a synonym for "turn to act" (ie turn). This would seem to me to be one of those occasions (others include combat expertise and the delayed action rules). Do other creatures know which square the character is in? (A question of whether or not the 5-ft. step essentially fooled observers so much that they must guess which of eight — or nine — squares the character occupies.) You have total concealment thus they cannot see you (which is the definition of total concealment). However, they know which square you were in when they lost sight of you, and thus might be able to guess where you are now. Can the character be victim of a targeted spell? (Requesting clarification of the nature of total concealment, primarily.) You have total concealment, so no. Will an attack of opportunity (not listed in the Player's Handbook's list of actions) or an immediate action (listed as an action post hoc) remove the total concealment? Rules don't seem to cover this case. An AoO is quite clearly not an action, so a simple reading would suggest not. Similarly, the rules for the normal form of cloak dance don't suggest that an attack voids your concealment. Considering that the ability is purely mundane (pre-reqs Hide and Perform), I'd rule that the normal effects of attacking apply - ie causing you to become observed. However, the text doesn't say this. In any case, attacking via melee will allow the target to pinpoint you if adjacent or determine your direction otherwise (see "invisibility" rules in DMG glossary). Do observers have line of sight to the character? (Dealing with the logic of "If you… [do not have] line of sight [a target] is considered to have total concealment from you".) Of course not. You can't have LoS to something you can't see.
Lucas Blackstone 07-08-07, 08:10 AM	Hmmm. Now I can't remember the feat I was thinking of where you use your cloak for an AC bonus and a few other side tricks of which I thought this was one of. Since there is no description on how the optical illusions work, just a flat result of what they do, it makes it difficult to tell how this feat works exactly. So a generic blanket series of answers to your questions would be.. Yes No No Yes No The way I ( totally incorrectly) read the feat the first time was that you were using your cloak and your own bodily movements to obscure yourself from your opponents vision, which fits the prerequisites, name, and is semi logical. But it really depends on how the feat works to determine how the concealment works. Judging by the prerequisites it's not supernatural in nature, and it's almost like it requires a hide check of sorts ( possibly to be contested by Alcalientre's aforementioned spot check). It's like the feat is only half done.