cohorts for the leadership feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

cohorts for the leadership feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
weareus
11-13-07, 05:53 PM hello all
i thought i would start a thread asking for ideas about good cohorts for the leadership feat. i will start the discussion with the dragon cohort feat. prereqs are 9th lvl character and the ability to speak draconic. you can decrease the ecl of any dragon you are getting as a cohort by three, enabling you to get more powerful dragons as cohorts. any other suggestions?
Rulebook
11-13-07, 05:59 PM dragon cohorts are lame. try for cohorts with useful skills, like Janni or something.
The_Shaman
11-13-07, 06:52 PM Dragons, lame? Not if they use their skills smartly. Plus, unlike Janni, they get some badass art ;) . Anyway, I'd probably use leadership either to get useful party members and thus races with low or no LA. If the DM is opposed to that, I would probably settle for a mount/companion/scout for my character. Having a pegasus mount is cool to begin with, but a pegasus mount with barbarian levels... heh ;)
weareus
11-14-07, 04:23 PM Anyway, I'd probably use leadership either to get useful party members and thus races with low or no LA.

my party doesn't have a fighter, therefore, do you think it would be a good idea to attract one as a cohort? also, if you get the leadership feat, then obtain familiar, what exactly happens to you cohort?
DracoPhoenix
11-14-07, 07:40 PM Figure out what you want him to do before anything else - support, off tank etc.

Warlock's good for reliable support fire.

Psion / wizard etc for similar, but also utility.

Cleric - heal bot, "off" tank (got a L9 with atk+ 18...)

Rogue, 2 search checks are better than one.

Paladin, off tank / off healer

Bard (normally a 5th man role anyway).

Artificer, cheaper items, 2nd trap search & disarm

Soulknife / Samurai (well, someone has to look after the horses :))

Look for a gap in your current party and see how well you can fill it. But remember, co-horts will be 2 levels behind you, so they are better in support than front line.

(Tip : once you've identified the role, add "off " infront of it, if you still think it's workable, go with it ;))
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian
11-14-07, 08:54 PM Perfectly reasonable to pick up a fighter

My current party was sans cleric it was ok for a while and my being a Pali helped. Still as levels progressed ability drain started happening all over the place, and since my pali wasn't the wisest guy around my quick and dirty solution was to use my 6th level feat to find us a healing stick

I would say work with the DM and party and try to find something you all wouldn't be apposed to adding. We talked about it for a few weeks and wound up with an actually "healing stick" character, she doesn't even have a ranged weapon (crazy huh) but my DM was equal parts concerned about us dying because no one could adequately heal very bad things and the cleric becoming a CODzilla. The solution was a simple one for us, I'm not allowed to build or level up my leadership cohorts, it limits their "overwhelming usefulness for just a simple feat". I'm a power gamer, I'll admit that, and leadership breaks easily.

Still the desire for a fighter to block for you is perfectly reasonable. The key to leadership, beyond fun RP is to fill a gap in your current party.
Suggestion: If you say what's in the party we could give you better suggestions
DMaple
11-15-07, 05:00 AM my party doesn't have a fighter, therefore, do you think it would be a good idea to attract one as a cohort?

Not the best roll for a cohort as they are two levels behind the rest of the party usually (they can catch up one level via XP). They tend to be a bit more fragile. So putting them it the front line isn't always a good idea.
weareus
11-15-07, 02:23 PM my leadership score gives me a lvl 7 cohort at 6th level. do the rules specifically state that the cohort has to be two levels behind?
kreesteeyan
11-15-07, 02:28 PM my leadership score gives me a lvl 7 cohort at 6th level. do the rules specifically state that the cohort has to be two levels behind?
Yes.
DMaple
11-15-07, 02:54 PM Yes when you attract them, but they can through experience get to be one level behind. They can never be greater than your level-1.
LSMFT
11-15-07, 03:03 PM I don't think so?
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.If it gains enough xp to be one level behind, it doesn't gain that level. It is always capped at two levels lower than you.
DMaple
11-15-07, 03:24 PM Yeah, sorry misread that.

Still there is a Feat in Heroes of Battle that lets your cohort get to your level-1 rather than level-2.
weareus
11-15-07, 05:00 PM Suggestion: If you say what's in the party we could give you better suggestions

sorry about that.:embarrass
we have 2 rogues, a spellthief, a cleric/psion, a shaper, a warmage, a ranger, a wizard, and a druid.
DMaple
11-15-07, 06:17 PM You have nine party members and you want to add a cohort?!?!?!

Are you working on forming a football* team?

*soccer for those American's here (that's 11 members on the team).
Darth Sephiroth
11-15-07, 08:22 PM Dragons aren't the best as a normal cohort (Grab Dragon Cohort [Draconomicon] later on if you want one, all of the better dragons require the higher level anyway).

Also avoid Undead with the leadership feat, if you want Undead go with the Undead Leadership feat [Libris Mortis] which has other benefits as well specifically for your Undead.

Look for a cohort that complements you, for instance a Scout would probably start drooling at the thought of a Marshal cohort with the Grant Move action ability which (When combined with Auras) makes for a pretty impressive mix. If you are already Undead, look at the Chosen of the Master prestige class for a fighter type as it gives you a powerful guard, and as a Dragon the Dragonkith class works similarly.
The_Shaman
11-15-07, 08:35 PM Not the best roll for a cohort as they are two levels behind the rest of the party usually (they can catch up one level via XP). They tend to be a bit more fragile. So putting them it the front line isn't always a good idea.

Well, the same applies for spellcasters as well. A fighter or psy-warrior won't be as useful as one of the same level, but can still be a decent battlefield controller, don't you think? Still, DMaple makes another good point - this party is getting too big. A mount or mascot (something small and crazy like pseudodragon bard) can be useful simply as it will mean less work for the DM.
Dari_Ra
11-15-07, 09:30 PM (something small and crazy like pseudodragon bard) can be useful simply as it will mean less work for the DM.

Thats a Superb idea....i'm in love with the thought.... Thats just what my Character needed a useful cohort....I'm in a party of 4 (2 of which don't know what a "Cleric on a Stick is" (they've never played before) we have a Cleric(one of the new people, but i might do a pseudodragon rogue (i just want a purple/pinkish dragon) for the use magic device, and the sneak attack flanking partner (i'm a Rogue/Soul Knife...a Thri-Keen Rogue/Soul Knife...so i can already poison with paralysis (bite attack) add Damage to my Mind Blade, and Sneak attack...and to top it all off i have a high Natural Armor...(i took the improved natural armor feat a few times)

SO i say Pseudodragon Cohorts = COOL fun Idea (no clue how useful)

Dragons in general = Not a good idea....
weareus
11-15-07, 09:50 PM is it really possible for a pseudodragon to have class levels as a cohort? also, if it is possible, could he take levels in a buff specialized wizard? we do not have any buffs in our party.
FrostHammer
11-15-07, 09:52 PM Take a Druid cohort. The cohort will bring his OWN Fighter (a.k.a the Animal Companion). At the druid's level which is 5, he can bring in a Fleshraker, which should be very good for quite a while.
DMaple
11-16-07, 06:57 AM Yeah if you take a Druid cohort with an animal companion, then you'll have your squad!

Actually since the Druid will be 7th level, attract one with Leadership himself, then you'll have a substitute.
ScottTheGR81
11-16-07, 08:58 AM For my games when i take leadership I like to complement my character with a similar cohort.

So my wizard character will usually gain a wizard cohort that is his "Apprentice" that eventually will take over duties of running his school/tower/town/city (adjusted for whatever current level of the camaign: 10/15/20/epic)
weareus
11-26-07, 02:43 PM Yeah if you take a Druid cohort with an animal companion, then you'll have your squad!

Actually since the Druid will be 7th level, attract one with Leadership himself, then you'll have a substitute.

i don't think your cohort is allowed to have leadership himself but i'm not sure so don't go by what i say.
LSMFT
11-26-07, 03:10 PM It isn't explicitly not allowed. Therefore, in this case, it is ok by RAW.

DMs may rule otherwise, and simple logistics is a good enough reason to do so IMHO.
Dog_O_War
11-26-07, 03:23 PM hello all
i thought i would start a thread asking for ideas about good cohorts for the leadership feat. i will start the discussion with the dragon cohort feat. prereqs are 9th lvl character and the ability to speak draconic. you can decrease the ecl of any dragon you are getting as a cohort by three, enabling you to get more powerful dragons as cohorts. any other suggestions?

I am assuming you mean for a non-specific class. In that case, whatever class is most complementry to your group (Bard!).

If for specific campaigns/characters, then my favorite is....

Play a fighter. Take the apprentice feat from the DMGII. At fifth level, change it to the master feat to begin getting a cohort. Then at 6th level take the leadership feat.
If you like a strong-tying cohort-PC bond, then train two apprentices with the master feat, accepting the other one as a cohort with leadership (he wouldn't get an instant level boost, but would allow you to retain two cohorts at one time).

Generally this will allow you to do crazy-fun group fighter tactics; tactics such as taking the phalanx-fighting feat, the shield feats from the PHBII, and then the formation expert when all of your cohorts reach 6th level. Basically the idea is a tight-knit group of warriors; a group within a group (of PC's) that react and move as one. If you can get the other PC's in on the action, then even more fun can be had!

EDIT: Just read that you were looking for a cohort as a wizard; take the leadership feat at level 9 and the master feat at level 6, and take a couple of evocation specialist wizards; have them focus on the double-wand feats (from CAr) and use them as magic-missile machine-gunners. They'll still have all those good wizard spells, like slow, haste, bear's endurance (ie: do not bar transmutation) that can buff-up the party's ranger and druid without wasting time. It gives you low-levels with auto-damage, as well as non-spell DC/resistance reliant buffers. Your group doesn't seem to lack much, if anything.
tyrecian
11-26-07, 03:50 PM hehe i love cohorts. A few good ones i have seen...

Once our Paladin (charger build w/ flying mount) got a bard. She was an excellent addition, as she could stay with the party and help out, as well as buff the paladin with another set of melee spells to help him on his way.

A straight wizard can benefit greatly from having a Cleric around as well. Someone to help taunt off monsters as well as full healing tree. If your DM allows you to tailor your cohorts, then Clerics can have a feat set that allows them great power by (usually) level 7, so that even the 2 level dip isnt so bad :) (just wait till level 9 to take your leadership feat.

A straight cleric works well with a Fighter cohort, for good tanking and easing the burden of healing the party in combat with abilities like Trip and Disarm (two handed flail PA'ers anyone?). It also adds damage to the Cleric without having the extra burden of having too much to worry about (it is fun to mark the cohort fighter with average damage, and simply roll a few d20s and add em up :))

Of course straight fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, and rogues can always use a straight cleric as well, to help heal them, and make sure they are at their peak performance with buffs and such. Item creation feats also make Clerics fun as cohorts that don't necessarily have to run through dungeons.

Anytime the party lacks a skill monkey, it is a nice idea to add one at level 6. This is right around the time that you really start seeing traps that are nasty nasty, like ability damage traps and save or die falls and such. Having even a lower level rogue can help out immensely in these situations (like the slay living trap at the entrance to the dungeon :P)

I generally see my PCs play heros and the cohorts be tailored to help them in that goal. Sometimes (like persistant CoDzilla) the cohorts can become even heroes themselves. The best cohorts are hands on before the battle begins and completely hands off during the fighting. Generally the CRs of creatures at your level (to deal with a 'party') are great enough to totally crush a cohort, so casting buffers are generally preferred (make the party levels higher with just a few rounds). Bards make excellent buffers as well, if this role is already fulfilled.

For your group, you sure could use a tank :eek: which can be tough to pull off with the 2 level drop, but not impossible. Might be a good idea (if you can swing it, which i doubt given the party makeup) to get a pally, but a fighter in full plate swinging a short sword with a tower shield can give you some cushion to really open up your party. Though in reality he is only going to last a few levels and become fodder, but by then the warmage and wizard should be able to handle things (especially if the warmage is going armorred).

Another possible route, would be straight Cleric to Thuermaturgist Prc. It isnt optimal what with all the persistant and DMM craziness you could pull, but you could use another all purpose buffer/healer since your druid probably wants to be offensive and the cleric is mixing it up with psion. Might not be a bad idea to add another buffer and eventually he can summon mighty creatures with additional healing through the Summon Planar Ally line (good). This can be extremely helpful later when the battles get really rough (around 14-16) to have a cohort that can both heal and summon healers (and peckers like the Lantern Archon :))

Your party doesnt need offense, you have that in spades, so you will most likely be in pretty short battles, but for the long ones a really nice buffer/healbot is a great thing to have. Throw in item creation and half your cost on wands as well. The cheesy Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC (arguably applicable to any good god's followers by changing the name of the god in the PrC line) grants all shields, and allows access to a great many more weapons, so that taking that line can also see vast improvements to healing as well as allowing your cleric to run amuck with a Tower shield and a wand in each hand :) Tie a string to the wand, or a chain, whatever, and let it dangle on your belt if you need to cast a spell... makes for a decent battlefield medic (remember that TS is no longer facing, and can bar emanations :D). If things go poorly and he has to fight, well.... just break out your Scimitar, so that if he hits, its a Crit! yay!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
weareus 11-13-07, 05:53 PM	hello all i thought i would start a thread asking for ideas about good cohorts for the leadership feat. i will start the discussion with the dragon cohort feat. prereqs are 9th lvl character and the ability to speak draconic. you can decrease the ecl of any dragon you are getting as a cohort by three, enabling you to get more powerful dragons as cohorts. any other suggestions?
Rulebook 11-13-07, 05:59 PM	dragon cohorts are lame. try for cohorts with useful skills, like Janni or something.
The_Shaman 11-13-07, 06:52 PM	Dragons, lame? Not if they use their skills smartly. Plus, unlike Janni, they get some badass art ;) . Anyway, I'd probably use leadership either to get useful party members and thus races with low or no LA. If the DM is opposed to that, I would probably settle for a mount/companion/scout for my character. Having a pegasus mount is cool to begin with, but a pegasus mount with barbarian levels... heh ;)
weareus 11-14-07, 04:23 PM	Anyway, I'd probably use leadership either to get useful party members and thus races with low or no LA. my party doesn't have a fighter, therefore, do you think it would be a good idea to attract one as a cohort? also, if you get the leadership feat, then obtain familiar, what exactly happens to you cohort?
DracoPhoenix 11-14-07, 07:40 PM	Figure out what you want him to do before anything else - support, off tank etc. Warlock's good for reliable support fire. Psion / wizard etc for similar, but also utility. Cleric - heal bot, "off" tank (got a L9 with atk+ 18...) Rogue, 2 search checks are better than one. Paladin, off tank / off healer Bard (normally a 5th man role anyway). Artificer, cheaper items, 2nd trap search & disarm Soulknife / Samurai (well, someone has to look after the horses :)) Look for a gap in your current party and see how well you can fill it. But remember, co-horts will be 2 levels behind you, so they are better in support than front line. (Tip : once you've identified the role, add "off " infront of it, if you still think it's workable, go with it ;))
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 11-14-07, 08:54 PM	Perfectly reasonable to pick up a fighter My current party was sans cleric it was ok for a while and my being a Pali helped. Still as levels progressed ability drain started happening all over the place, and since my pali wasn't the wisest guy around my quick and dirty solution was to use my 6th level feat to find us a healing stick I would say work with the DM and party and try to find something you all wouldn't be apposed to adding. We talked about it for a few weeks and wound up with an actually "healing stick" character, she doesn't even have a ranged weapon (crazy huh) but my DM was equal parts concerned about us dying because no one could adequately heal very bad things and the cleric becoming a CODzilla. The solution was a simple one for us, I'm not allowed to build or level up my leadership cohorts, it limits their "overwhelming usefulness for just a simple feat". I'm a power gamer, I'll admit that, and leadership breaks easily. Still the desire for a fighter to block for you is perfectly reasonable. The key to leadership, beyond fun RP is to fill a gap in your current party. Suggestion: If you say what's in the party we could give you better suggestions
DMaple 11-15-07, 05:00 AM	my party doesn't have a fighter, therefore, do you think it would be a good idea to attract one as a cohort? Not the best roll for a cohort as they are two levels behind the rest of the party usually (they can catch up one level via XP). They tend to be a bit more fragile. So putting them it the front line isn't always a good idea.
weareus 11-15-07, 02:23 PM	my leadership score gives me a lvl 7 cohort at 6th level. do the rules specifically state that the cohort has to be two levels behind?
kreesteeyan 11-15-07, 02:28 PM	my leadership score gives me a lvl 7 cohort at 6th level. do the rules specifically state that the cohort has to be two levels behind? Yes.
DMaple 11-15-07, 02:54 PM	Yes when you attract them, but they can through experience get to be one level behind. They can never be greater than your level-1.
LSMFT 11-15-07, 03:03 PM	I don't think so? If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.If it gains enough xp to be one level behind, it doesn't gain that level. It is always capped at two levels lower than you.
DMaple 11-15-07, 03:24 PM	Yeah, sorry misread that. Still there is a Feat in Heroes of Battle that lets your cohort get to your level-1 rather than level-2.
weareus 11-15-07, 05:00 PM	Suggestion: If you say what's in the party we could give you better suggestions sorry about that.:embarrass we have 2 rogues, a spellthief, a cleric/psion, a shaper, a warmage, a ranger, a wizard, and a druid.
DMaple 11-15-07, 06:17 PM	You have nine party members and you want to add a cohort?!?!?! Are you working on forming a football* team? *soccer for those American's here (that's 11 members on the team).
Darth Sephiroth 11-15-07, 08:22 PM	Dragons aren't the best as a normal cohort (Grab Dragon Cohort [Draconomicon] later on if you want one, all of the better dragons require the higher level anyway). Also avoid Undead with the leadership feat, if you want Undead go with the Undead Leadership feat [Libris Mortis] which has other benefits as well specifically for your Undead. Look for a cohort that complements you, for instance a Scout would probably start drooling at the thought of a Marshal cohort with the Grant Move action ability which (When combined with Auras) makes for a pretty impressive mix. If you are already Undead, look at the Chosen of the Master prestige class for a fighter type as it gives you a powerful guard, and as a Dragon the Dragonkith class works similarly.
The_Shaman 11-15-07, 08:35 PM	Not the best roll for a cohort as they are two levels behind the rest of the party usually (they can catch up one level via XP). They tend to be a bit more fragile. So putting them it the front line isn't always a good idea. Well, the same applies for spellcasters as well. A fighter or psy-warrior won't be as useful as one of the same level, but can still be a decent battlefield controller, don't you think? Still, DMaple makes another good point - this party is getting too big. A mount or mascot (something small and crazy like pseudodragon bard) can be useful simply as it will mean less work for the DM.
Dari_Ra 11-15-07, 09:30 PM	(something small and crazy like pseudodragon bard) can be useful simply as it will mean less work for the DM. Thats a Superb idea....i'm in love with the thought.... Thats just what my Character needed a useful cohort....I'm in a party of 4 (2 of which don't know what a "Cleric on a Stick is" (they've never played before) we have a Cleric(one of the new people, but i might do a pseudodragon rogue (i just want a purple/pinkish dragon) for the use magic device, and the sneak attack flanking partner (i'm a Rogue/Soul Knife...a Thri-Keen Rogue/Soul Knife...so i can already poison with paralysis (bite attack) add Damage to my Mind Blade, and Sneak attack...and to top it all off i have a high Natural Armor...(i took the improved natural armor feat a few times) SO i say Pseudodragon Cohorts = COOL fun Idea (no clue how useful) Dragons in general = Not a good idea....
weareus 11-15-07, 09:50 PM	is it really possible for a pseudodragon to have class levels as a cohort? also, if it is possible, could he take levels in a buff specialized wizard? we do not have any buffs in our party.
FrostHammer 11-15-07, 09:52 PM	Take a Druid cohort. The cohort will bring his OWN Fighter (a.k.a the Animal Companion). At the druid's level which is 5, he can bring in a Fleshraker, which should be very good for quite a while.
DMaple 11-16-07, 06:57 AM	Yeah if you take a Druid cohort with an animal companion, then you'll have your squad! Actually since the Druid will be 7th level, attract one with Leadership himself, then you'll have a substitute.
ScottTheGR81 11-16-07, 08:58 AM	For my games when i take leadership I like to complement my character with a similar cohort. So my wizard character will usually gain a wizard cohort that is his "Apprentice" that eventually will take over duties of running his school/tower/town/city (adjusted for whatever current level of the camaign: 10/15/20/epic)
weareus 11-26-07, 02:43 PM	Yeah if you take a Druid cohort with an animal companion, then you'll have your squad! Actually since the Druid will be 7th level, attract one with Leadership himself, then you'll have a substitute. i don't think your cohort is allowed to have leadership himself but i'm not sure so don't go by what i say.
LSMFT 11-26-07, 03:10 PM	It isn't explicitly not allowed. Therefore, in this case, it is ok by RAW. DMs may rule otherwise, and simple logistics is a good enough reason to do so IMHO.
Dog_O_War 11-26-07, 03:23 PM	hello all i thought i would start a thread asking for ideas about good cohorts for the leadership feat. i will start the discussion with the dragon cohort feat. prereqs are 9th lvl character and the ability to speak draconic. you can decrease the ecl of any dragon you are getting as a cohort by three, enabling you to get more powerful dragons as cohorts. any other suggestions? I am assuming you mean for a non-specific class. In that case, whatever class is most complementry to your group (Bard!). If for specific campaigns/characters, then my favorite is.... Play a fighter. Take the apprentice feat from the DMGII. At fifth level, change it to the master feat to begin getting a cohort. Then at 6th level take the leadership feat. If you like a strong-tying cohort-PC bond, then train two apprentices with the master feat, accepting the other one as a cohort with leadership (he wouldn't get an instant level boost, but would allow you to retain two cohorts at one time). Generally this will allow you to do crazy-fun group fighter tactics; tactics such as taking the phalanx-fighting feat, the shield feats from the PHBII, and then the formation expert when all of your cohorts reach 6th level. Basically the idea is a tight-knit group of warriors; a group within a group (of PC's) that react and move as one. If you can get the other PC's in on the action, then even more fun can be had! EDIT: Just read that you were looking for a cohort as a wizard; take the leadership feat at level 9 and the master feat at level 6, and take a couple of evocation specialist wizards; have them focus on the double-wand feats (from CAr) and use them as magic-missile machine-gunners. They'll still have all those good wizard spells, like slow, haste, bear's endurance (ie: do not bar transmutation) that can buff-up the party's ranger and druid without wasting time. It gives you low-levels with auto-damage, as well as non-spell DC/resistance reliant buffers. Your group doesn't seem to lack much, if anything.
tyrecian 11-26-07, 03:50 PM	hehe i love cohorts. A few good ones i have seen... Once our Paladin (charger build w/ flying mount) got a bard. She was an excellent addition, as she could stay with the party and help out, as well as buff the paladin with another set of melee spells to help him on his way. A straight wizard can benefit greatly from having a Cleric around as well. Someone to help taunt off monsters as well as full healing tree. If your DM allows you to tailor your cohorts, then Clerics can have a feat set that allows them great power by (usually) level 7, so that even the 2 level dip isnt so bad :) (just wait till level 9 to take your leadership feat. A straight cleric works well with a Fighter cohort, for good tanking and easing the burden of healing the party in combat with abilities like Trip and Disarm (two handed flail PA'ers anyone?). It also adds damage to the Cleric without having the extra burden of having too much to worry about (it is fun to mark the cohort fighter with average damage, and simply roll a few d20s and add em up :)) Of course straight fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, and rogues can always use a straight cleric as well, to help heal them, and make sure they are at their peak performance with buffs and such. Item creation feats also make Clerics fun as cohorts that don't necessarily have to run through dungeons. Anytime the party lacks a skill monkey, it is a nice idea to add one at level 6. This is right around the time that you really start seeing traps that are nasty nasty, like ability damage traps and save or die falls and such. Having even a lower level rogue can help out immensely in these situations (like the slay living trap at the entrance to the dungeon :P) I generally see my PCs play heros and the cohorts be tailored to help them in that goal. Sometimes (like persistant CoDzilla) the cohorts can become even heroes themselves. The best cohorts are hands on before the battle begins and completely hands off during the fighting. Generally the CRs of creatures at your level (to deal with a 'party') are great enough to totally crush a cohort, so casting buffers are generally preferred (make the party levels higher with just a few rounds). Bards make excellent buffers as well, if this role is already fulfilled. For your group, you sure could use a tank :eek: which can be tough to pull off with the 2 level drop, but not impossible. Might be a good idea (if you can swing it, which i doubt given the party makeup) to get a pally, but a fighter in full plate swinging a short sword with a tower shield can give you some cushion to really open up your party. Though in reality he is only going to last a few levels and become fodder, but by then the warmage and wizard should be able to handle things (especially if the warmage is going armorred). Another possible route, would be straight Cleric to Thuermaturgist Prc. It isnt optimal what with all the persistant and DMM craziness you could pull, but you could use another all purpose buffer/healer since your druid probably wants to be offensive and the cleric is mixing it up with psion. Might not be a bad idea to add another buffer and eventually he can summon mighty creatures with additional healing through the Summon Planar Ally line (good). This can be extremely helpful later when the battles get really rough (around 14-16) to have a cohort that can both heal and summon healers (and peckers like the Lantern Archon :)) Your party doesnt need offense, you have that in spades, so you will most likely be in pretty short battles, but for the long ones a really nice buffer/healbot is a great thing to have. Throw in item creation and half your cost on wands as well. The cheesy Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC (arguably applicable to any good god's followers by changing the name of the god in the PrC line) grants all shields, and allows access to a great many more weapons, so that taking that line can also see vast improvements to healing as well as allowing your cleric to run amuck with a Tower shield and a wand in each hand :) Tie a string to the wand, or a chain, whatever, and let it dangle on your belt if you need to cast a spell... makes for a decent battlefield medic (remember that TS is no longer facing, and can bar emanations :D). If things go poorly and he has to fight, well.... just break out your Scimitar, so that if he hits, its a Crit! yay!