Combat Brute + Leap Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat Brute + Leap Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aminvelos
02-26-07, 09:37 AM How do these two feats multiply? These descriptions are on the wizards site from excerpts btw.

Combat Brute
Momentum Swing: To use this maneuver, you must charge a foe in the first round, and you must make an attack using your Power Attack feat in the second round. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. Your attacks during the second round gain a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x1-1/2, or x3 if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.

Leap Attack
Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.

I simply multiply these but I want to make sure. So if your using a 2 handed weapon and take a -5 on your power attack your doing 30 damage extra damage right?

One of my current players seems to think the combat brute damage is extra damage aka 15+his power attack 10+ which is 25x 3 with the leap making it 75

or is the combat brute taking the power attack turning it to 15 and then that needs to be multiple of 3 being 45.

I'm a dm'ing with some new players(and am new to dming) so I just would like to make sure I'm making a just ruling.
jaelis
02-26-07, 10:16 AM I could easily be wrong, but my memory of Momentum Swing was that it only worked against the opponent you charged in the first round. If this is the case, then it would be a little trick to pull off a Combat Brute + Leap Attack combo, since you would have to charge the same opponent two rounds in a row. (Once to set up CB, and once to use LA.)

That said, they do work together. Note that the wording of Leap Attack was errated in a confusing way, but I think (!) the intent was to make it just add an extra fixed multiple of the normal damage. So if LA by itself gave a 3:1 ratio, and CB by itself gave a 3:1 ratio, the two together would give a 5:1 ratio. The errata is confusing though, so different DMs might read it differently.
HairyApe
02-26-07, 10:45 AM I believe your end result is right. Power attack with a 2H weapon is +2 Damage for every -1. LA was changed to something like weird, but in the end, it just doubles the extra damage from PA. -1 = +4 damage. Combat Brute is -1 for +3 damage. if you could do them together, it would be -1 for +7 damage minimum +35. (+2 for base PA, +2 for LA, + 3 for CB). Though I could be wrong, I think that's how the math works out.
ScipioX
02-26-07, 02:35 PM Jaelis hit it on the head. Leap attack and Combat brute don't combo at all normally.

Leap attack gives you bonus damage on the charge. Combat brute gives you extra damage the round AFTER you charge. Thus, they don't combine normally at all.

The only way they'd work together is if:
The PC charged a target. (Thus setting up the first requirement for momentum swing).
The target then retreats away on his turn.
The PC can then charge again and get both leap attack bonus and momentum swing bonus damage.

In this unusual case, the bonus damage is a total of 5 pts for every -1 taken on the power attack.

The errata on leap attack is specifically designed to eliminate any shady multiplication action: thus it now adds +100% of the base bonus damage.

This means that the momentum swing does its normal 3:1 ratio, and then you add the +100% provided by leap attack, which is a 2:1 ratio. This comes out to a 5:1 ratio. Thus the minimum power attack of 5 for momentum swing adds 25 extra damage when combined with leap attack.

@hairyape: The combat brute 3:1 ratio replaces the normal 2:1 ratio from power attack. The wording is a bit vague, but the examples make it clear.
Aminvelos
02-27-07, 09:30 AM Well that partially depends on how you play I suppose. In our current game if you take an action before the other players notice you I don't make you roll up initiative it just doesn't make sense to me. Like if a trusted friend was throwing knives and you turned around being near he was throwing he could get a free shot at you before initiative was rolled. So he would normally make a charge, of course most monsters here this but I do roll 1s once in a while and sometimes his opponents are distracted. Then I roll up initiatives.

Also another thing Devon likes to do is charge using a sunder attack, which when successful gives him an immediate attack per combat brute feat which sometimes gets his opponent running depending upon the situation. Then on the next round he charges again making a leap attack.(sometimes he tumbles away & he attacks a new character to get the bonus, this isn't too hard being that he has a Mountain Spirit Folk Warblade5/Fighter1) 14+ jump 14+ Tumble

and leap attack is 3x with a two handed weapon
Frugal
02-27-07, 09:47 AM Well that partially depends on how you play I suppose. In our current game if you take an action before the other players notice you I don't make you roll up initiative it just doesn't make sense to me. Like if a trusted friend was throwing knives and you turned around being near he was throwing he could get a free shot at you before initiative was rolled. So he would normally make a charge, of course most monsters here this but I do roll 1s once in a while and sometimes his opponents are distracted. Then I roll up initiatives.

It's called a surprise round.
ScipioX
02-27-07, 12:45 PM and leap attack is 3x with a two handed weapon

Should be, but isn't. Go read the errata for the frenzied berzerker's supreme power attack. It uses the same +100% language, and also gives a concrete example of how it does X4 damage with a two handed weapon.
RolandStJude
03-09-07, 10:21 PM Jaelis hit it on the head. Leap attack and Combat brute don't combo at all normally.

Leap attack gives you bonus damage on the charge. Combat brute gives you extra damage the round AFTER you charge. Thus, they don't combine normally at all.

The only way they'd work together is if:
The PC charged a target. (Thus setting up the first requirement for momentum swing).
The target then retreats away on his turn.
The PC can then charge again and get both leap attack bonus and momentum swing bonus damage.

In this unusual case, the bonus damage is a total of 5 pts for every -1 taken on the power attack.

The errata on leap attack is specifically designed to eliminate any shady multiplication action: thus it now adds +100% of the base bonus damage.

This means that the momentum swing does its normal 3:1 ratio, and then you add the +100% provided by leap attack, which is a 2:1 ratio. This comes out to a 5:1 ratio. Thus the minimum power attack of 5 for momentum swing adds 25 extra damage when combined with leap attack.

@hairyape: The combat brute 3:1 ratio replaces the normal 2:1 ratio from power attack. The wording is a bit vague, but the examples make it clear.

I generally agree, except I don't see anything in Combat Brute that requires your round two target to be the same as the round one target. So that your scenario isn't the *only* way it would work. Against multiple foes spread out more than 10 feet apart you seem to be able to charge back and forth between them: PA+LeapAttack round 1, LeapAttack&CB rounds 2 forward.

I'll have to take another look at those examples. CB replacing PA's bonus isn't the way I've usually seen it done. But you may certainly be right. If you mean this text, though, I don't think it's so clear.

For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.

Nothing about that says it's instead of your PA benefit. I'd read it as "extra" in addition to whatever other benefits (like PA) you may have.
FrostHammer
03-09-07, 10:28 PM Where is this Leap Attack errata? I need to show my DM.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-09-07, 10:34 PM I generally agree, except I don't see anything in Combat Brute that requires your round two target to be the same as the round one target. So that your scenario isn't the *only* way it would work. Against multiple foes spread out more than 10 feet apart you seem to be able to charge back and forth between them: PA+LeapAttack round 1, LeapAttack&CB rounds 2 forward.

I was about to mention this. Your Momentum Swing doesn't have to be against the foe you charged. This is very handy when you happen to KILL your opponent on your Leap Attack (and when mixed with Shock Trooper to change that attack penalty to AC, that happens a lot). You are going all Energizer-bunny/Rock Lee on a cluster of enemies that way. It is nice because charging is normally weak against large numbers (since a devastating strike that is hard to set up doesn't help when you are swarmed the next round).

And Scipio and Jaelis have the math correct. Leap Attack gives a flat +100% to PA damage. The base ratio for two-handers is -1/+2 (as made clear by examples in Supreme Power Attack for any doubters), which gives CB and LA an inherent advantage when used two-handed without the need for different multipliers. Your THF Leap Attack is -1/+4, and your Momentum Swing is -1/+3. If you manage to string two LAs together, your second does -1/+5 instead if -1/+3.

Frost, oddly enough, the errata for a Complete Adventurer feat is the in Complete Adventurer Errata. Cross-reference with the CW Errata for PA math examples.
StruckingFuggle
03-10-07, 12:17 AM One more way to combo Combat Brute and Leap Attack ... make use of the Knockback feat. :)
ScipioX
03-10-07, 03:19 AM CB replacing PA's bonus isn't the way I've usually seen it done. But you may certainly be right. If you mean this text, though, I don't think it's so clear.

On a second read through, I have to agree that its not quite as clear as I first thought.

I think my reading of the feat leads to less brokenness, so that's the one I'll stick with. Naturally that's a subjective conclusion, so each DM will have to apply his or her own common sense.

This would be a good candidate for a FAQ question. (Or even a customer service question.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aminvelos 02-26-07, 09:37 AM	How do these two feats multiply? These descriptions are on the wizards site from excerpts btw. Combat Brute Momentum Swing: To use this maneuver, you must charge a foe in the first round, and you must make an attack using your Power Attack feat in the second round. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. Your attacks during the second round gain a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x1-1/2, or x3 if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. Leap Attack Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack. This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over. I simply multiply these but I want to make sure. So if your using a 2 handed weapon and take a -5 on your power attack your doing 30 damage extra damage right? One of my current players seems to think the combat brute damage is extra damage aka 15+his power attack 10+ which is 25x 3 with the leap making it 75 or is the combat brute taking the power attack turning it to 15 and then that needs to be multiple of 3 being 45. I'm a dm'ing with some new players(and am new to dming) so I just would like to make sure I'm making a just ruling.
jaelis 02-26-07, 10:16 AM	I could easily be wrong, but my memory of Momentum Swing was that it only worked against the opponent you charged in the first round. If this is the case, then it would be a little trick to pull off a Combat Brute + Leap Attack combo, since you would have to charge the same opponent two rounds in a row. (Once to set up CB, and once to use LA.) That said, they do work together. Note that the wording of Leap Attack was errated in a confusing way, but I think (!) the intent was to make it just add an extra fixed multiple of the normal damage. So if LA by itself gave a 3:1 ratio, and CB by itself gave a 3:1 ratio, the two together would give a 5:1 ratio. The errata is confusing though, so different DMs might read it differently.
HairyApe 02-26-07, 10:45 AM	I believe your end result is right. Power attack with a 2H weapon is +2 Damage for every -1. LA was changed to something like weird, but in the end, it just doubles the extra damage from PA. -1 = +4 damage. Combat Brute is -1 for +3 damage. if you could do them together, it would be -1 for +7 damage minimum +35. (+2 for base PA, +2 for LA, + 3 for CB). Though I could be wrong, I think that's how the math works out.
ScipioX 02-26-07, 02:35 PM	Jaelis hit it on the head. Leap attack and Combat brute don't combo at all normally. Leap attack gives you bonus damage on the charge. Combat brute gives you extra damage the round AFTER you charge. Thus, they don't combine normally at all. The only way they'd work together is if: The PC charged a target. (Thus setting up the first requirement for momentum swing). The target then retreats away on his turn. The PC can then charge again and get both leap attack bonus and momentum swing bonus damage. In this unusual case, the bonus damage is a total of 5 pts for every -1 taken on the power attack. The errata on leap attack is specifically designed to eliminate any shady multiplication action: thus it now adds +100% of the base bonus damage. This means that the momentum swing does its normal 3:1 ratio, and then you add the +100% provided by leap attack, which is a 2:1 ratio. This comes out to a 5:1 ratio. Thus the minimum power attack of 5 for momentum swing adds 25 extra damage when combined with leap attack. @hairyape: The combat brute 3:1 ratio replaces the normal 2:1 ratio from power attack. The wording is a bit vague, but the examples make it clear.
Aminvelos 02-27-07, 09:30 AM	Well that partially depends on how you play I suppose. In our current game if you take an action before the other players notice you I don't make you roll up initiative it just doesn't make sense to me. Like if a trusted friend was throwing knives and you turned around being near he was throwing he could get a free shot at you before initiative was rolled. So he would normally make a charge, of course most monsters here this but I do roll 1s once in a while and sometimes his opponents are distracted. Then I roll up initiatives. Also another thing Devon likes to do is charge using a sunder attack, which when successful gives him an immediate attack per combat brute feat which sometimes gets his opponent running depending upon the situation. Then on the next round he charges again making a leap attack.(sometimes he tumbles away & he attacks a new character to get the bonus, this isn't too hard being that he has a Mountain Spirit Folk Warblade5/Fighter1) 14+ jump 14+ Tumble and leap attack is 3x with a two handed weapon
Frugal 02-27-07, 09:47 AM	Well that partially depends on how you play I suppose. In our current game if you take an action before the other players notice you I don't make you roll up initiative it just doesn't make sense to me. Like if a trusted friend was throwing knives and you turned around being near he was throwing he could get a free shot at you before initiative was rolled. So he would normally make a charge, of course most monsters here this but I do roll 1s once in a while and sometimes his opponents are distracted. Then I roll up initiatives. It's called a surprise round.
ScipioX 02-27-07, 12:45 PM	and leap attack is 3x with a two handed weapon Should be, but isn't. Go read the errata for the frenzied berzerker's supreme power attack. It uses the same +100% language, and also gives a concrete example of how it does X4 damage with a two handed weapon.
RolandStJude 03-09-07, 10:21 PM	Jaelis hit it on the head. Leap attack and Combat brute don't combo at all normally. Leap attack gives you bonus damage on the charge. Combat brute gives you extra damage the round AFTER you charge. Thus, they don't combine normally at all. The only way they'd work together is if: The PC charged a target. (Thus setting up the first requirement for momentum swing). The target then retreats away on his turn. The PC can then charge again and get both leap attack bonus and momentum swing bonus damage. In this unusual case, the bonus damage is a total of 5 pts for every -1 taken on the power attack. The errata on leap attack is specifically designed to eliminate any shady multiplication action: thus it now adds +100% of the base bonus damage. This means that the momentum swing does its normal 3:1 ratio, and then you add the +100% provided by leap attack, which is a 2:1 ratio. This comes out to a 5:1 ratio. Thus the minimum power attack of 5 for momentum swing adds 25 extra damage when combined with leap attack. @hairyape: The combat brute 3:1 ratio replaces the normal 2:1 ratio from power attack. The wording is a bit vague, but the examples make it clear. I generally agree, except I don't see anything in Combat Brute that requires your round two target to be the same as the round one target. So that your scenario isn't the only way it would work. Against multiple foes spread out more than 10 feet apart you seem to be able to charge back and forth between them: PA+LeapAttack round 1, LeapAttack&CB rounds 2 forward. I'll have to take another look at those examples. CB replacing PA's bonus isn't the way I've usually seen it done. But you may certainly be right. If you mean this text, though, I don't think it's so clear. For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. Nothing about that says it's instead of your PA benefit. I'd read it as "extra" in addition to whatever other benefits (like PA) you may have.
FrostHammer 03-09-07, 10:28 PM	Where is this Leap Attack errata? I need to show my DM.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-09-07, 10:34 PM	I generally agree, except I don't see anything in Combat Brute that requires your round two target to be the same as the round one target. So that your scenario isn't the only way it would work. Against multiple foes spread out more than 10 feet apart you seem to be able to charge back and forth between them: PA+LeapAttack round 1, LeapAttack&CB rounds 2 forward. I was about to mention this. Your Momentum Swing doesn't have to be against the foe you charged. This is very handy when you happen to KILL your opponent on your Leap Attack (and when mixed with Shock Trooper to change that attack penalty to AC, that happens a lot). You are going all Energizer-bunny/Rock Lee on a cluster of enemies that way. It is nice because charging is normally weak against large numbers (since a devastating strike that is hard to set up doesn't help when you are swarmed the next round). And Scipio and Jaelis have the math correct. Leap Attack gives a flat +100% to PA damage. The base ratio for two-handers is -1/+2 (as made clear by examples in Supreme Power Attack for any doubters), which gives CB and LA an inherent advantage when used two-handed without the need for different multipliers. Your THF Leap Attack is -1/+4, and your Momentum Swing is -1/+3. If you manage to string two LAs together, your second does -1/+5 instead if -1/+3. Frost, oddly enough, the errata for a Complete Adventurer feat is the in Complete Adventurer Errata. Cross-reference with the CW Errata for PA math examples.
StruckingFuggle 03-10-07, 12:17 AM	One more way to combo Combat Brute and Leap Attack ... make use of the Knockback feat. :)
ScipioX 03-10-07, 03:19 AM	CB replacing PA's bonus isn't the way I've usually seen it done. But you may certainly be right. If you mean this text, though, I don't think it's so clear. On a second read through, I have to agree that its not quite as clear as I first thought. I think my reading of the feat leads to less brokenness, so that's the one I'll stick with. Naturally that's a subjective conclusion, so each DM will have to apply his or her own common sense. This would be a good candidate for a FAQ question. (Or even a customer service question.)