Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheApokalypseShovel 11-08-07, 03:22 PM	Is it possible to ready an attack action while putting some BAB into combat expertise for the dodge bonus? When does the character readying decide how much base attack they are going to put in, when they ready the action or when they attack? The question basically is, when does the bonus from combat expertise come into effect? An example is Bill, the fighter, who readies himself against a charge by Mick who has a reach weapon. Bill is low on health and is more concerned with not getting hit than doing damage, so he uses combat expertise to increase his AC by 5. Is this legal since he will be making his attack action after he is getting hit? A second example, John is going to make an unarmed attack on Kurt, who is armed. John knows that he is going to take an attack of opportunity before he is able to attack. Can he increase his AC with combat expertise for the purpose of the unarmed attack?
Tordak 11-08-07, 03:41 PM	From the wording of the feat, you can only use combat expertise when using the attack action as a standard action or the full attack action (full-round). However you can ready a standard action, a move action or a free action anytime you use ready an action. It would appear that when setting against a charge you ready a standard action (attack action) to make an attack against the charging character, so I'd say you can then decide to use combat expertise at that moment. I'm not sure when the attack happens (after of before the hit from the charging character, or even simultaneously), but the action (in that case attack action) is taken before (since you need to ready it). (If we debate this and it happens to be incorrect, the player would instead need to decide the round before to gain the advantage of combat expertise.) On the second example, John can use combat expertise normally, but the penalty (and AC bonus) applies until the begining of his next turn, not only for that attack.
rironin 11-08-07, 03:42 PM	EDIT: I wrote my entire post answering the wrong question :P I agree with Tordak. You can use Combat Expertise when you make the attack, since you can ready an action that meets all of Combat Expertise's stipulations. To answer the second question, I would say yes. Even though John's unarmed attack is provoking an attack of opportunity before his action can resolve, John is making an attack or full-attack action. The Combat Expertise penalties (and bonuses) should apply immediately. That's my view. Even though John hasn't rolled his attack roll yet, he's taking the penalty on all his attack rolls from the moment he announces it. He deserves to benefit as soon as he makes that choice.
Slimgauge 11-08-07, 03:52 PM	From the online srd, the Combat Expertise feat says When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action. The readying an action section says Ready The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so). Readying an Action You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. Readying an action is itself a standard action. The action readied cannot be a full attack action but may be the standard attack necessary to trigger a use of Combat Expertise. However, combat expertise isn't actually triggered yet (you haven't used the attack action), so you don't have to decide how much BAB you're sinking into it nor do you get the AC bonus yet. If the triggering condition you'd specified occurs, you get to make your prepared attack (wich goes off just before the triggering condition). It is at this point that you have to decide how much BAB to give up to Combat Expertise and any other attack variables (such as Power Attack if you have it). For your examples: If the weapon you set against a charging opponent who has reach does not also have reach (the trident, for example), he's going to get his attack in without you being able to get your readied attack in, because the rules of the charge force him to stop in and attack from the first square that it is possible for him to do so from, and you couldn't reach him to use your (readied) attack action. If your reach is the same as the charger's reach, your attack will go off first (barring some odd feat combination on the charger's part) as his act of charging triggers it when he reaches a square you threaten so you'll be able to get your dodge bonus from combat expertise at that time (and not before). In your second example, it's less clear. If John does not 'use his attack action', Kurt does not get the AoO. I'd say John declares his attack action and all required decisions such as how much BAB to lose to Combat Expertise before Kurt makes his AoO and as such gets the Dodge bonus from the time of declaration, since he's now committed to performing the attack action even if Kurts AoO were to trip or disarm him (I know he's already unarmed in your example, but I'm postulating what other sorts of things Kurt could do).
TheApokalypseShovel 11-08-07, 04:40 PM	Although I would like to believe that a person readying against a charge should be able to get the dodge bonus from combat expertise, there is also the question of what happens if Mick decides instead to attack someone else? What about Jane, whose initiative is before Micks, who decides to shoot an arrow at Bill? Does she have to hit the higher AC? What if she attacks after Mick? That being said I also find it ridiculous that someone with combat expertise cannot take the full +5 instead of +4 of total defense. To me it seems that someone with combat expertise would be able to defend themselves prior to combat just as well as during combat. Are there rules that prevent someone with combat expertise from targeting the ground and attacking it to gain the +5 bonus to dodge until their next turn? Also Slimgauge: You can take a 5-foot step as part of the readied action, so you would be able to reach them even if they have a reach weapon and you do not. My solution to the charging situation is that Bill recieves the dodge bonus immdiately if he declares it when he readies his action. If he does not declare how much of a dodge bonus he would like and decides when he attacks, he gets the dodge bonus from that point forward. Alternatively Bill recieves the dodge bonus against Mick from the moment he readies his action. He recieves the dodge bonus against everyone, only after he makes his attack attempt. Tell me what you think.
Slimgauge 11-08-07, 06:21 PM	Although I would like to believe that a person readying against a charge should be able to get the dodge bonus from combat expertise, there is also the question of what happens if Mick decides instead to attack someone else? Bill isn't being attacked in that case, so his readied action isn't triggered and his AC doesn't matter. If it gets around to Bill's next action and his still hasn't used his readied action, he can do whatever he wants, including re-readying it. What about Jane, whose initiative is before Micks, who decides to shoot an arrow at Bill? Does she have to hit the higher AC? What if she attacks after Mick? If Jane's action doesn't meet the trigger conditions for Bill's readied action, Bill doesn't act, and Jane shoots. Bill hasn't 'used an attack action' so his Combat Expertise hasn't triggered. If she attacks after Mick, and Mick's action did trigger Bill's readied action (and therefore his Combat Expertise) then yes, she has to hit the higher AC (possibly including shooting into melee). That being said I also find it ridiculous that someone with combat expertise cannot take the full +5 instead of +4 of total defense. To me it seems that someone with combat expertise would be able to defend themselves prior to combat just as well as during combat. Are there rules that prevent someone with combat expertise from targeting the ground and attacking it to gain the +5 bonus to dodge until their next turn? In another thread someone postulated a "null attack" (a declared attack that uses a standard action, but has no target) but then Bill couldn't be ready against the charge. If you wanted to have a cheesie explanation say that Bill suspects there's an invisible opponent in a threatened square and attacks it. This way he could get his full +5 AC, but would only be able to take an AoO against the charger, and that only if he outreaches him or the charger charges someone else and moves past Bill. Also Slimgauge: You can take a 5-foot step as part of the readied action, so you would be able to reach them even if they have a reach weapon and you do not. True, if the difference in reach is only 5 feet. My solution to the charging situation is that Bill recieves the dodge bonus immdiately if he declares it when he readies his action. If he does not declare how much of a dodge bonus he would like and decides when he attacks, he gets the dodge bonus from that point forward. I'm sorry, he doesn't meet the criteria of using an attack action as required by Combat Expertise. He's only readied one. You could house rule that way easily. The only problem comes when there are multiple potential chargers and Bill would want to use different degrees of Combat Expertise against them. Alternatively Bill recieves the dodge bonus against Mick from the moment he readies his action. He recieves the dodge bonus against everyone, only after he makes his attack attempt. Tell me what you think. Usually when you set a weapon against a charge, you don't declare a particular potential charger. Would Bill get his dodge bonus in your scenario against only against someone who actually charged and all who go after the charger, but not against anyone who went before the charge (provided they didn't charge ?)
Tordak 11-08-07, 07:23 PM	I need to come back on what I said : your action take place immediatly before the event that triggers if, that is the condition you selected for your ready action; you get to attack the charger before he attacks you. Readying an action is a standard action, no matter which type of action you readied. Unless you agree that the action you ready counts as the action needed to use combat expertise(it make sense but it's not clear from the rule of readied action), you cannot use it (your standard action is the readied action, not the attack action). However that is kind of dumb, and since you're readying an attack action you should defenitly be allowed to use combat expertise. Now whether you wait to get the benefit or not is not clear at all. If you ready against a charge but someone else walks in yout threaten range, do you get any of the penalty on your AoO? I think you are taking the action when you take the ready action in terms of game mechanic (your not actually acting right away, but you are deciding of the course of action at the moment of readying); the combat expertise should be declare at that time and apply until you get to decide of your course of action once again. However I understand the other point of view, where you get the benefit at the time the readied action is triggered, and I can't decide which makes more sense in terms of game mechanic.
TheApokalypseShovel 11-08-07, 07:42 PM	If you are arguing that John is able to get his AC bonus, regardless of if he is able to actually complete his attack, Bill should be able to as well. In your second example, it's less clear. If John does not 'use his attack action', Kurt does not get the AoO. I'd say John declares his attack action and all required decisions such as how much BAB to lose to Combat Expertise before Kurt makes his AoO and as such gets the Dodge bonus from the time of declaration, since he's now committed to performing the attack action even if Kurts AoO were to trip or disarm him (I know he's already unarmed in your example, but I'm postulating what other sorts of things Kurt could do). Bill is just as committed to performing the attack action as John is, the only difference is that Bill is declaring his attack action earlier. I would differentiate between the attack action and the attack roll itself. When you ready to roll an attack, I would argue that you are using the attack action. Since the rules aren't exact on when the benefit of combat expertise comes I don't expect everyone's interpretation of RAW to be the same. As a DM I would allow combat expertise to be used in readying a charge based on the following: Combat Expertise is the defensive equivalent of Power attack, which is able to be used with a readying action. It makes sense that a person who is being charged would be able to be defensive as well as aggressive. Combat Expertise's wording to include attack action or full attack action is to prevent abuse by Spellcasters and those who rarely use attack actions and could potentially use the feat for a bonus of +5 AC all of the time. In this case the person is not trying to break the feat for free AC, but is using it fairly with the trade off present in all other uses of the feat.
Nom 11-08-07, 09:59 PM	RAW, you use Combat Expertise when you make an attack or full attack action. Thus, if you had readied the attack action (a standard action), you could trigger Combat Expertise when your readied action triggered. In the case of a charging opponent, you would get CE against that opponent (and anyone who later attacked you), but not against opponents who attack before your readied action triggers. That said, I see no exploit in allowing a character who readies a standard action to trigger CE at that point.
Slimgauge 11-09-07, 10:01 AM	Bill is just as committed to performing the attack action as John is, the only difference is that Bill is declaring his attack action earlier. I would differentiate between the attack action and the attack roll itself. When you ready to roll an attack, I would argue that you are using the attack action. Not quite. If Bill's readied action is never triggered and it gets around to his next turn, he can do something completely different, and never made that attack action that you say he's committed to.