Combat Expertise + Two Weapon Defense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat Expertise + Two Weapon Defense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
darkwarren
03-10-07, 09:15 AM Thought I would post this to get an idea of how other DM's would rule this.

A character with Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense... would they receive a +2 shield bonus (instead of the standard +1 from TWD) if they used Combat Expertise while wielding two weapons?
tarkin
03-10-07, 09:19 AM No. They get a straight +1 for every -1 they take.

Yes, the -1 applies to both attacks.
WinDReiN
03-10-07, 09:21 AM Yes, if you're using two weapons or a double weapon and have the Two Weapon Defense Feat, you get +2 to AC, +any aditional AC from CExpertise.
If you don't have the TWD Feat, you get +1.
Novacat
03-10-07, 09:48 AM Thought I would post this to get an idea of how other DM's would rule this.

A character with Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense... would they receive a +2 shield bonus (instead of the standard +1 from TWD) if they used Combat Expertise while wielding two weapons?

The bolded wording is a mistake. The bonus you get from Combat Expertise is unnamed, and therefore stacks with everything. It's not a shield bonus.
JarionSilverblades
03-10-07, 10:09 AM Thought I would post this to get an idea of how other DM's would rule this.

A character with Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense... would they receive a +2 shield bonus (instead of the standard +1 from TWD) if they used Combat Expertise while wielding two weapons?

Yes. page 140 of the PHB, says that the bonus from Combat Expertise stacks with the bonus from Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, and the Two-Weapon Defense feat, says the bonus is +2 while Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, then you shoud get the +2.
darkwarren
03-10-07, 11:57 AM Perhaps I wasn't specific enough.

Here are the descriptions of the feats and actions that I'm talking about right from the SRD:

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC.
When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

So here's the scenario:
- wielding two weapons gives a character with TWD a +1 shield bonus (+2 if fighting defensively).
- I always saw Combat Expertise as a more efficient style of fighting defenisvely since they are both dodge bonuses and thus do not stack.
- would a character with the TWD and Combat Expertise feats while wielding two weapons receive the +2 shield bonus while using Combat Expertise?
darkwarren
03-10-07, 11:58 AM Yes. page 140 of the PHB, says that the bonus from Combat Expertise stacks with the bonus from Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, and the Two-Weapon Defense feat, says the bonus is +2 while Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, then you shoud get the +2.

This is what I thought as well.
DarkRhystar
03-10-07, 01:11 PM So here's the scenario:
- wielding two weapons gives a character with TWD a +1 shield bonus (+2 if fighting defensively).

It's a total of +4 if one is fighting defensively though (+2 Dodge, +2 Shield).

- I always saw Combat Expertise as a more efficient style of fighting defenisvely since they are both dosge bonuses and thus do not stack.

There's some debate here. Combat Expertise requires an Attack or Full-Attack action and Fighting Defensively requires Standard action. I believe the most recent FAQ says they be combined and their bonuses stack.

- would a character with the TWD and Combat Expertise feats while wielding two weapons receive the +2 shield bonus while using Combat Expertise?

No. He would receive +1 Shield bonus since Combat Expertise is not Fighting Defensively.

Would it be a reasonable house rule? Maybe.
darkwarren
03-10-07, 02:42 PM There's some debate here. Combat Expertise requires an Attack or Full-Attack action and Fighting Defensively requires Standard action. I believe the most recent FAQ says they be combined and their bonuses stack.

But Fighting Defensively allows for fighting in a standard or full attack action - much like one can draw a weapon as a free action while moving (with at least a +1 BAB).

I guess my interpretation stems from what is written after the "Normal" heading in the Combat Expertise description. It mentions that normally one loses -4 to attack for a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This seems to replace the fighting defenisvely trade off with a feat. And since they are both dodge bonuses the Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively actions would not stack
paladin2019
03-10-07, 03:01 PM And since they are both dodge bonuses the Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively actions would not stack

Dodge bonuses stack.
Xeviat-DM
03-10-07, 03:54 PM By the rules, TWD's extra benefit is only triggered by Fighting Defensively or Total Defense, not Combat Expertise. By the rules, you can Fight Defensively and use Combat Expertise at the same time.

Combat Expertise and Fight Defensively grant Dodge bonuses, and thus stack with each other. Two-Weapon Defense grants a shield bonus, which stacks with the Dodge bonus just fine.

Most DMs I know treat Combat Expertise as an Improved Fight Defensively, though, and do not let them stack (once you have taken Combat Expertise, you can't Fight Defensively anymore since that's a weaker version of your feat; unless you really want to). Thus, most DMs I know allow TWD's extra benefit to trigger with the Combat Expertise feat.

Hope that answers what you asked.
kalstrand
03-10-07, 05:17 PM Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise can be done together and it states as much in the PHB.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-10-07, 05:36 PM Fighting defensively and CE stack. TWD does not increase in benefit from CE. Paradoxically, very other ability that gives you more AC while fighting defensively also gives you the improvement while using CE for at least -2 to your attack. The Complete books are rife with them. As such, you can improve a pretty bad core feat by allowing it to function with CE -2 or more, as a house rule.
Ranger REG
03-11-07, 01:16 AM Fighting defensively and CE stack. TWD does not increase in benefit from CE. Paradoxically, very other ability that gives you more AC while fighting defensively also gives you the improvement while using CE for at least -2 to your attack. The Complete books are rife with them. As such, you can improve a pretty bad core feat by allowing it to function with CE -2 or more, as a house rule.
To clarify:

TWD stacks with Fighting Defensively.

TWD stacks with Combat Expertise (just the +1 shield bonus added to CE's bonus to AC).

TWD stacks with both CE and FD (using the +2 shield bonus because you're applying FD).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darkwarren 03-10-07, 09:15 AM	Thought I would post this to get an idea of how other DM's would rule this. A character with Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense... would they receive a +2 shield bonus (instead of the standard +1 from TWD) if they used Combat Expertise while wielding two weapons?
tarkin 03-10-07, 09:19 AM	No. They get a straight +1 for every -1 they take. Yes, the -1 applies to both attacks.
WinDReiN 03-10-07, 09:21 AM	Yes, if you're using two weapons or a double weapon and have the Two Weapon Defense Feat, you get +2 to AC, +any aditional AC from CExpertise. If you don't have the TWD Feat, you get +1.
Novacat 03-10-07, 09:48 AM	Thought I would post this to get an idea of how other DM's would rule this. A character with Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense... would they receive a +2 shield bonus (instead of the standard +1 from TWD) if they used Combat Expertise while wielding two weapons? The bolded wording is a mistake. The bonus you get from Combat Expertise is unnamed, and therefore stacks with everything. It's not a shield bonus.
JarionSilverblades 03-10-07, 10:09 AM	Thought I would post this to get an idea of how other DM's would rule this. A character with Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Defense... would they receive a +2 shield bonus (instead of the standard +1 from TWD) if they used Combat Expertise while wielding two weapons? Yes. page 140 of the PHB, says that the bonus from Combat Expertise stacks with the bonus from Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, and the Two-Weapon Defense feat, says the bonus is +2 while Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, then you shoud get the +2.
darkwarren 03-10-07, 11:57 AM	Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. Here are the descriptions of the feats and actions that I'm talking about right from the SRD: COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Int 13. Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action. Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats. TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting. Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2. Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats. Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. So here's the scenario: - wielding two weapons gives a character with TWD a +1 shield bonus (+2 if fighting defensively). - I always saw Combat Expertise as a more efficient style of fighting defenisvely since they are both dodge bonuses and thus do not stack. - would a character with the TWD and Combat Expertise feats while wielding two weapons receive the +2 shield bonus while using Combat Expertise?
darkwarren 03-10-07, 11:58 AM	Yes. page 140 of the PHB, says that the bonus from Combat Expertise stacks with the bonus from Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, and the Two-Weapon Defense feat, says the bonus is +2 while Fighting Defensivly or when using the total defense action, then you shoud get the +2. This is what I thought as well.
DarkRhystar 03-10-07, 01:11 PM	So here's the scenario: - wielding two weapons gives a character with TWD a +1 shield bonus (+2 if fighting defensively). It's a total of +4 if one is fighting defensively though (+2 Dodge, +2 Shield). - I always saw Combat Expertise as a more efficient style of fighting defenisvely since they are both dosge bonuses and thus do not stack. There's some debate here. Combat Expertise requires an Attack or Full-Attack action and Fighting Defensively requires Standard action. I believe the most recent FAQ says they be combined and their bonuses stack. - would a character with the TWD and Combat Expertise feats while wielding two weapons receive the +2 shield bonus while using Combat Expertise? No. He would receive +1 Shield bonus since Combat Expertise is not Fighting Defensively. Would it be a reasonable house rule? Maybe.
darkwarren 03-10-07, 02:42 PM	There's some debate here. Combat Expertise requires an Attack or Full-Attack action and Fighting Defensively requires Standard action. I believe the most recent FAQ says they be combined and their bonuses stack. But Fighting Defensively allows for fighting in a standard or full attack action - much like one can draw a weapon as a free action while moving (with at least a +1 BAB). I guess my interpretation stems from what is written after the "Normal" heading in the Combat Expertise description. It mentions that normally one loses -4 to attack for a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This seems to replace the fighting defenisvely trade off with a feat. And since they are both dodge bonuses the Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively actions would not stack
paladin2019 03-10-07, 03:01 PM	And since they are both dodge bonuses the Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively actions would not stack Dodge bonuses stack.
Xeviat-DM 03-10-07, 03:54 PM	By the rules, TWD's extra benefit is only triggered by Fighting Defensively or Total Defense, not Combat Expertise. By the rules, you can Fight Defensively and use Combat Expertise at the same time. Combat Expertise and Fight Defensively grant Dodge bonuses, and thus stack with each other. Two-Weapon Defense grants a shield bonus, which stacks with the Dodge bonus just fine. Most DMs I know treat Combat Expertise as an Improved Fight Defensively, though, and do not let them stack (once you have taken Combat Expertise, you can't Fight Defensively anymore since that's a weaker version of your feat; unless you really want to). Thus, most DMs I know allow TWD's extra benefit to trigger with the Combat Expertise feat. Hope that answers what you asked.
kalstrand 03-10-07, 05:17 PM	Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise can be done together and it states as much in the PHB.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-10-07, 05:36 PM	Fighting defensively and CE stack. TWD does not increase in benefit from CE. Paradoxically, very other ability that gives you more AC while fighting defensively also gives you the improvement while using CE for at least -2 to your attack. The Complete books are rife with them. As such, you can improve a pretty bad core feat by allowing it to function with CE -2 or more, as a house rule.
Ranger REG 03-11-07, 01:16 AM	Fighting defensively and CE stack. TWD does not increase in benefit from CE. Paradoxically, very other ability that gives you more AC while fighting defensively also gives you the improvement while using CE for at least -2 to your attack. The Complete books are rife with them. As such, you can improve a pretty bad core feat by allowing it to function with CE -2 or more, as a house rule. To clarify: TWD stacks with Fighting Defensively. TWD stacks with Combat Expertise (just the +1 shield bonus added to CE's bonus to AC). TWD stacks with both CE and FD (using the +2 shield bonus because you're applying FD).