Combat Focus and Rage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat Focus and Rage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JBW
06-16-07, 02:55 AM I'm playing a Barbarian with an exceptional Wisdom (14) and I was looking for something to really add to the character. I came across the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII and I'm wondering if they are usable while in a Rage. By RAW, they are certainly NOT Combat Expertise - the only feat specifically forbidden from being used while in Rage - but I'm wondering if I missed something.

I actually got this idea from one of the builds in the back of the PHBII where they suggest some of these feats for a 'hunter' Barbarian.

So, should this be OK?
claypigeons
06-16-07, 03:37 AM I'd allow it. It seems more like a "feel" thing in combat, than a "think" thing, which is what rage expressly prohibits.

Also, on a semi-related note, I prefer to think of wisdom as common sense, and instinct, the latter of which in my opinion are what the Combat Focus feats would be.
Kratch
06-16-07, 08:06 AM Combat expertise relies on an INT pre-req, focus is wis based. Int is thinking, planning, wis is more common sense (as previous poster said). I generally play int pre-req'd feats are denied in a rage, everything else is fair game.
Part-Human2
06-16-07, 01:29 PM Combat expertise relies on an INT pre-req, focus is wis based. Int is thinking, planning, wis is more common sense (as previous poster said). I generally play int pre-req'd feats are denied in a rage, everything else is fair game.

Really, you'd deny a raging barbarian the use of the whirlwind feat?
Kratch
06-16-07, 06:05 PM Hmm. I may have to reconsider my criteria.
Neutronium_Dragon
06-16-07, 06:28 PM Rage denies you the use of Intelligence-based skills. It doesn't say anything about denying you the use of Intelligence-based feats. In also explicitly lists which feats can't be used, and it certainly doesn't go on to list every Intelligence-based (or Dexterity-based or Charisma-based) feat as being denied.

Unless Rage says you can't use it, you still can. The only entry in there which isn't explicit in what is disallowed is the "requires patience or concentration", but most feats which a barbarian would be interested in using in combat, even Int-prerequisite ones, don't require those.

One other thing which may come up: It says you can't use Combat Expertise. It does not say that you lose it, so there's no problem as far as it continuing to fulfill prerequisites while you're raging.
Lecen_of_Mitran
06-16-07, 08:04 PM I'm playing a Barbarian with an exceptional Wisdom (14) and I was looking for something to really add to the character. I came across the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII and I'm wondering if they are usable while in a Rage. By RAW, they are certainly NOT Combat Expertise - the only feat specifically forbidden from being used while in Rage - but I'm wondering if I missed something.

I actually got this idea from one of the builds in the back of the PHBII where they suggest some of these feats for a 'hunter' Barbarian.

So, should this be OK?

I wouldn´t.

This chain of feats were mde for a "soldier" type character. Someone trained for combat.

A Barbarian is someone that fights in pure anger, putting aside wisdom, reason and tatics. He just wants to smash, smash, smash or be smashed.

But, that´s my opinion, of course.
Rowangar
06-17-07, 12:37 PM From the description of combat focus, it comes from physical training rather than mental, if you drill something enough it becomes second nature. Hence the automatic activation after a successful attack. I have no problem seeing a barbarian or tribe look at combat this way, it make more sense than most really since wisdom would seem more prized than intelligence in barbarians in general.

I'd almost go so far to argue that these feats have the barbarian specifically in mind since he'd have more difficulty with the combat expertise chain.

But as for keeping combat expertise active after entering a rage, I disagree, it's not a continuous effect, you have to activate it, when you rage you are expressibly not paying attention to their attacks to be tactically defensive. There's a gray line if you enter rage after using combat expertise in the same round, but I would rule it as inactive when entering a rage.
eamon
06-17-07, 04:21 PM I don't think they're particularly strong - you need to hit first. And they're not very precisely worded. Resisting grapples? what grapple checks are those exactly? Only the first? Whenever someone you're grappling with wants to hurt you? The last feat is pretty wimpy too; it gives you a relatively small bonus (at a cost of six feats, wis 13 prereq, and at bab 15+... one round of +6 isn't so great). Fast healing is nice, but it's not great; If you're a real target then 4 HP a round is penuts (most characters/NPC's drop after no more than 3 rounds of focussed fighting - if not less, so then you'll have 12 HP more... whee...), but it _is_ nice if you start a combat with less than your full hitpoints. Combat awareness is weird - hitpoints are a meta game concept and your character can never know them, and as such I don't like the mechanics. Eventually, I guess I like the first the most! +4 bonus to will saves is pretty nice if you're intending to get a few other combat related feats anyhow. (And don't get me started on dodge - boring blech micromanagement for virtually no gain feat.)

So they're OK, and certainly compatible with rage, but I'ld recommend them only if you like the flavor.

BTW the barbarian description explicitely says you maintain the use of all feats with the only exception of combat expertise. Certainly all PHB feats are allowed, and as to non-core feats - it would have to be pretty blatent before I'ld ban it.
Nom
06-17-07, 08:16 PM CE is banned because of the interaction with the AC penalty. Rage implies a certain degree of "caution to the wind", which doesn't sit well with CE. This doesn't imply that he can't perform other combat actions (feats) requiring skill; he just can't use that skill to specifically defend himself.

Curiously, he is allowed to fight defensively or use total defense, but they are generally used by characters who don't actually want to be fighting, and a barbarian who doesn't want to fight probably shouldn't be raging.
enlightened
06-17-07, 08:28 PM I would allow it if the "fluff" of the feat were changed.

Don't call it combat focus. Call it Beast focus and rename the Combat Form feat chain Feral Sense feats or something.

Say that the focus comes from becoming one with your inner animal......or with some higher plane spirit/totem animal, etc..
Kalarus
06-18-07, 07:57 AM CE is banned because of the interaction with the AC penalty. Rage implies a certain degree of "caution to the wind", which doesn't sit well with CE. This doesn't imply that he can't perform other combat actions (feats) requiring skill; he just can't use that skill to specifically defend himself.

Curiously, he is allowed to fight defensively or use total defense, but they are generally used by characters who don't actually want to be fighting, and a barbarian who doesn't want to fight probably shouldn't be raging.

There could be tactical reasons why a Barbarian would want to already get into his rage, but not actually attack yet this round. Wether this is really appropriate behaviour is a personal matter though.

A while back the Barbarian in the party wanted to let the enemies get a bit closer before he lay the smack down, but the player wanted to get into a rage already. So he said "I rage and remain where I am". The DM was a bit baffled, and improvised a bit by calling for a will save to exercise that kind of control when you're psyching yourself into a battle frenzy :P
Archangel62
06-18-07, 08:10 AM Combat focus makes sense to me, but then again when I do barbarians I don't go with the 'rage' idea, I'm channeling spirits of our tribes great warriors and our beast spirits. Combat focus is simply another level of that, I have learned to dip further into the spirit trance, now they are augmenting more than just my skill with my weapon, now they also salve my wounds, show me how to roll with a foe to keep from being knocked prone, fight off the incrusions of dark sorcery and many other things as well.
Father Dale
06-18-07, 01:53 PM Combat Focus should work just fine with Rage.

On a related note, its a good way to boost the Will save with a Frenzied Berserker. Take Iron Will too, and a Raging, Frenzied, Combat Focusing Berserker (with at least 3 combat form feats) would have a +8 boost to his will save. (+2 Iron Will + 2 Rage + 4 Combat Focus)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JBW 06-16-07, 02:55 AM	I'm playing a Barbarian with an exceptional Wisdom (14) and I was looking for something to really add to the character. I came across the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII and I'm wondering if they are usable while in a Rage. By RAW, they are certainly NOT Combat Expertise - the only feat specifically forbidden from being used while in Rage - but I'm wondering if I missed something. I actually got this idea from one of the builds in the back of the PHBII where they suggest some of these feats for a 'hunter' Barbarian. So, should this be OK?
claypigeons 06-16-07, 03:37 AM	I'd allow it. It seems more like a "feel" thing in combat, than a "think" thing, which is what rage expressly prohibits. Also, on a semi-related note, I prefer to think of wisdom as common sense, and instinct, the latter of which in my opinion are what the Combat Focus feats would be.
Kratch 06-16-07, 08:06 AM	Combat expertise relies on an INT pre-req, focus is wis based. Int is thinking, planning, wis is more common sense (as previous poster said). I generally play int pre-req'd feats are denied in a rage, everything else is fair game.
Part-Human2 06-16-07, 01:29 PM	Combat expertise relies on an INT pre-req, focus is wis based. Int is thinking, planning, wis is more common sense (as previous poster said). I generally play int pre-req'd feats are denied in a rage, everything else is fair game. Really, you'd deny a raging barbarian the use of the whirlwind feat?
Kratch 06-16-07, 06:05 PM	Hmm. I may have to reconsider my criteria.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-16-07, 06:28 PM	Rage denies you the use of Intelligence-based skills. It doesn't say anything about denying you the use of Intelligence-based feats. In also explicitly lists which feats can't be used, and it certainly doesn't go on to list every Intelligence-based (or Dexterity-based or Charisma-based) feat as being denied. Unless Rage says you can't use it, you still can. The only entry in there which isn't explicit in what is disallowed is the "requires patience or concentration", but most feats which a barbarian would be interested in using in combat, even Int-prerequisite ones, don't require those. One other thing which may come up: It says you can't use Combat Expertise. It does not say that you lose it, so there's no problem as far as it continuing to fulfill prerequisites while you're raging.
Lecen_of_Mitran 06-16-07, 08:04 PM	I'm playing a Barbarian with an exceptional Wisdom (14) and I was looking for something to really add to the character. I came across the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII and I'm wondering if they are usable while in a Rage. By RAW, they are certainly NOT Combat Expertise - the only feat specifically forbidden from being used while in Rage - but I'm wondering if I missed something. I actually got this idea from one of the builds in the back of the PHBII where they suggest some of these feats for a 'hunter' Barbarian. So, should this be OK? I wouldn´t. This chain of feats were mde for a "soldier" type character. Someone trained for combat. A Barbarian is someone that fights in pure anger, putting aside wisdom, reason and tatics. He just wants to smash, smash, smash or be smashed. But, that´s my opinion, of course.
Rowangar 06-17-07, 12:37 PM	From the description of combat focus, it comes from physical training rather than mental, if you drill something enough it becomes second nature. Hence the automatic activation after a successful attack. I have no problem seeing a barbarian or tribe look at combat this way, it make more sense than most really since wisdom would seem more prized than intelligence in barbarians in general. I'd almost go so far to argue that these feats have the barbarian specifically in mind since he'd have more difficulty with the combat expertise chain. But as for keeping combat expertise active after entering a rage, I disagree, it's not a continuous effect, you have to activate it, when you rage you are expressibly not paying attention to their attacks to be tactically defensive. There's a gray line if you enter rage after using combat expertise in the same round, but I would rule it as inactive when entering a rage.
eamon 06-17-07, 04:21 PM	I don't think they're particularly strong - you need to hit first. And they're not very precisely worded. Resisting grapples? what grapple checks are those exactly? Only the first? Whenever someone you're grappling with wants to hurt you? The last feat is pretty wimpy too; it gives you a relatively small bonus (at a cost of six feats, wis 13 prereq, and at bab 15+... one round of +6 isn't so great). Fast healing is nice, but it's not great; If you're a real target then 4 HP a round is penuts (most characters/NPC's drop after no more than 3 rounds of focussed fighting - if not less, so then you'll have 12 HP more... whee...), but it _is_ nice if you start a combat with less than your full hitpoints. Combat awareness is weird - hitpoints are a meta game concept and your character can never know them, and as such I don't like the mechanics. Eventually, I guess I like the first the most! +4 bonus to will saves is pretty nice if you're intending to get a few other combat related feats anyhow. (And don't get me started on dodge - boring blech micromanagement for virtually no gain feat.) So they're OK, and certainly compatible with rage, but I'ld recommend them only if you like the flavor. BTW the barbarian description explicitely says you maintain the use of all feats with the only exception of combat expertise. Certainly all PHB feats are allowed, and as to non-core feats - it would have to be pretty blatent before I'ld ban it.
Nom 06-17-07, 08:16 PM	CE is banned because of the interaction with the AC penalty. Rage implies a certain degree of "caution to the wind", which doesn't sit well with CE. This doesn't imply that he can't perform other combat actions (feats) requiring skill; he just can't use that skill to specifically defend himself. Curiously, he is allowed to fight defensively or use total defense, but they are generally used by characters who don't actually want to be fighting, and a barbarian who doesn't want to fight probably shouldn't be raging.
enlightened 06-17-07, 08:28 PM	I would allow it if the "fluff" of the feat were changed. Don't call it combat focus. Call it Beast focus and rename the Combat Form feat chain Feral Sense feats or something. Say that the focus comes from becoming one with your inner animal......or with some higher plane spirit/totem animal, etc..
Kalarus 06-18-07, 07:57 AM	CE is banned because of the interaction with the AC penalty. Rage implies a certain degree of "caution to the wind", which doesn't sit well with CE. This doesn't imply that he can't perform other combat actions (feats) requiring skill; he just can't use that skill to specifically defend himself. Curiously, he is allowed to fight defensively or use total defense, but they are generally used by characters who don't actually want to be fighting, and a barbarian who doesn't want to fight probably shouldn't be raging. There could be tactical reasons why a Barbarian would want to already get into his rage, but not actually attack yet this round. Wether this is really appropriate behaviour is a personal matter though. A while back the Barbarian in the party wanted to let the enemies get a bit closer before he lay the smack down, but the player wanted to get into a rage already. So he said "I rage and remain where I am". The DM was a bit baffled, and improvised a bit by calling for a will save to exercise that kind of control when you're psyching yourself into a battle frenzy :P
Archangel62 06-18-07, 08:10 AM	Combat focus makes sense to me, but then again when I do barbarians I don't go with the 'rage' idea, I'm channeling spirits of our tribes great warriors and our beast spirits. Combat focus is simply another level of that, I have learned to dip further into the spirit trance, now they are augmenting more than just my skill with my weapon, now they also salve my wounds, show me how to roll with a foe to keep from being knocked prone, fight off the incrusions of dark sorcery and many other things as well.
Father Dale 06-18-07, 01:53 PM	Combat Focus should work just fine with Rage. On a related note, its a good way to boost the Will save with a Frenzied Berserker. Take Iron Will too, and a Raging, Frenzied, Combat Focusing Berserker (with at least 3 combat form feats) would have a +8 boost to his will save. (+2 Iron Will + 2 Rage + 4 Combat Focus)