Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cormroc 07-27-07, 03:23 AM	I am about to start playing a Scout at level 5. I am playing a human and for 3 of my 4 feats I will probably be picking up Dodge, Mobility and Track. For the 4th feat I was thinking of picking up Combat Reflexes, it is not a feat I am used to as it is normally worthless for the ranged/archery type characters that I usually play. In general it seems like a good feat for a melee character with high Dex, but I am thinking with a skirmish style I will not get very much use out of it. Anyone tried it and have any feedback on the matter?
Mojo_Rat 07-27-07, 03:51 PM	Well the best way to look at it is, it is a good melee skill as you have said. Secondly by the wording of Skirmish if you have say moved 20' charging a target and gotten your sneak attack damage. And then the target decides to cast spells and risk an AoO your Skirmish damage applies assuming it is done in the same round after your charge. If somone else (same round as charge still) then runs by you you again get to stab him for skirmish damage. plus any feats it opens up which i cannot think of at this moment. Its not optimal for skirmish but in the right situation would let you open up a small can of whoop ass.
mostholy2 07-27-07, 03:54 PM	Combat Reflexes can be a decent feat, but the extra AoOs doesn't often come into play, unless you are making a build specific for AoOs (karmic strike, defensive throw, robidlar's gambit, trip builds). Mojo Rat is correct that if you've moved at least 10' during your turn, you get to add skirmish damage to any AoOs triggered before the beginning of your turn, but I don't know how many AoO's you will get to do unless your character is built to take advantage of your extra AoOs. If your DM knows you have combat reflexes, he will generally not do actions that incur multiple AoOs against your character. It does give him the advantage of no having to worry about a single opponent triggering his AoO for the round then being unable to AoO against subsequent triggering activities, but in terms of adding to combat effectiveness, I wouldn't think it comes into play that often unless your character is built to take advantage of your extra AoOs. Of course, if you are trying to met the pre-reqs for a specific Prestige Class/feat that requires Combat Reflexes, you should definitely get the feat.
Cormroc 07-27-07, 06:04 PM	I understand that skirmish damage would apply to AoO but at level 6 I am going to be taking Spring Attack, which will further remove the usefulness as I plan on ending most of my turns a fair distance away from the enemy. Coming up with feats for a melee character has proven to be harder than I thought it would be. I am thinking possibly Improved Trip, Imp. Init., Run, Brachiation (Complete Adventurer), Exotic Weapon Proficiency-Bolas, maybe Far Shot and Shot on the Run but I don't see Point Blank Shot as being incredibly useful. Combat Reflexes and Imp. Trip seems like a decent combo if I forgo the being far away from the enemy at the end of my turn.
Chimaera2000 07-27-07, 08:17 PM	I generally find that Combat Reflexes isn't useful without a reach weapon or (as mostholy2 mentioned) you're creating your build around it. I doubt it would be useful for your build unless you do some retooling, such as for Karmic Strike. For your build, if you have access to Complete Scoundrel, take a look at Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter instead. The first lets you further increase your damage and AC bonuses from Skirmish, while the second lets you stack ranger and scout levels for skirmish and lets you deal skirmish damage to favored enemies even if they're immune to crits! A Scout 3/Ranger x is a very nice combination. If you wanted to go in a different direction, you could grab Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus instead. Head into Dervish and skirmish away.
zorgling25 07-27-07, 08:28 PM	IMO, skirmish is not as useful as a melee ability compared to ranged, since unless you have some method of making 10 ft. steps instead of 5 ft. steps, or two 5 ft. steps (and yes, such methods exist), you cannot gain extra attacks in melee, whereas Manyshot and Greater Manyshot effectively allow you to make full attacks (albeit at great penalty) as standard actions.
Ics 07-27-07, 11:59 PM	The skirmish ability clearly states in the first paragraph of the ability that "The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the scout's turn," which pretty much limits it to attacks made during your turn.
Cormroc 07-28-07, 04:20 AM	I guess I need to pay more attention. I thought they lasted the whole round, perhaps the armor does and that is where I got the idea, my friend has the book so I can't look it up. I realize that a melee skirmisher is not an optimal choice for damage, but I dislike the flavor of ranged skirmishing and I am wanting to try something different in this campaign (as was implied earlier I very often play the ranged/archery type characters). I have considered taking a few levels of Ranger, don't have to pay a feat for Track, 1 favored enemy would be a fun flavor/background thing. Not much else the class offers that I want except for Swift Tracker. It is interesting that this is the first time I have thought Point Blank Shot was a foolish prereq for the rest of the archery feats. I can see myself using Far Shot and possibly Shot on the Run, but by the time I am within 30ft I am most likely going to be running in to stab things with my shortspear. So to get back on topic (partially my fault we are off) it would seem I was correct in thinking that Combat Reflexes is not a great option for a skirmisher. Thanks for the input and the advice.
runestar 07-28-07, 04:22 AM	If you were able to access pounce or a similar ability, skirmish becomes quite strong, since it applies to all the attacks you can make. Perhaps consider 1 lv of barb for pounce?:)
zorgling25 07-28-07, 12:39 PM	If you were able to access pounce or a similar ability, skirmish becomes quite strong, since it applies to all the attacks you can make. Perhaps consider 1 lv of barb for pounce?:) IMO Barbarians work quite well for skirmishing if you MUST have melee skirmishing. This might be better sought on the CharOp boards, as I know somewhere they list methods of gaining a 10 ft. step or 2 5 ft. steps (both of which allow you to skirmish on a full attack). I also seemed to have forgotten about Dual Strike in Complete Adventurer, which is effectively the melee equivalent of Manyshot (presumably if you have access to playing a Scout, you have access to Dual Strike).
Mojo_Rat 07-28-07, 02:55 PM	Point blank shot isnt that bad as a prereq, if your playing a close in skirmisher type, or even following the barbarian suggestion might i recomend some sort of short spear user?. If you cant get to a target, throw a spear after doing your movement, or even something like Stab current target and throw offhand spear sort of deal. You could spend 1 or 2 feats tops on the ranged stuff to make it more feasible and then otherwise focus on melee switching to the ranged when needed. I think imagewise this sort of character looks really cool with the spears :) In regards to something one of the previous posters said I had not known skirmish only worked on your turn, I guess when i read its description i missed that part and assumed it applied tyou take your next turn (like power attack and other abilities do)
jaelis 07-28-07, 03:14 PM	I understand that skirmish damage would apply to AoO but at level 6 I am going to be taking Spring Attack, which will further remove the usefulness as I plan on ending most of my turns a fair distance away from the enemy. If you aren't planning to hang out near the enemy, combat reflexes isn't going to do you much good. Coming up with feats for a melee character has proven to be harder than I thought it would be. I am thinking possibly Improved Trip, Imp. Init., Run, Brachiation (Complete Adventurer), Exotic Weapon Proficiency-Bolas, maybe Far Shot and Shot on the Run but I don't see Point Blank Shot as being incredibly useful. Combat Reflexes and Imp. Trip seems like a decent combo if I forgo the being far away from the enemy at the end of my turn. - Imp trip is always nice, but you'll want a decent Str to pull it off. - Imp init is great, of course. - I've never seen run be all that valuable. It's not all that helpful if you can get away but the rest of your party can't. I'd go for Dash (CW) instead. - I've never actually seen anyone seriously propose taking Brachiation. You much have an interesting campaign. - Don't take EWP-bolas... all you'll ever use them for is touch attacks, which you should be able to hit even with if you aren't proficient. You might look at weapon focus, telling blow, vexing flanker/adaptable flanker, or elusive target.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 03:25 PM	Coming up with feats for a melee character has proven to be harder than I thought it would be. I am thinking possibly Improved Trip, Imp. Init., Run, Brachiation (Complete Adventurer), Exotic Weapon Proficiency-Bolas, maybe Far Shot and Shot on the Run but I don't see Point Blank Shot as being incredibly useful. Combat Reflexes and Imp. Trip seems like a decent combo if I forgo the being far away from the enemy at the end of my turn. Improved Initiative, Dive for Cover, and my personal favorite, Quick Reconnoiter.
Cormroc 07-29-07, 02:37 AM	Quick Reconnoiter was intended to be on that list. Apparently I managed to forget it. The character concept currently uses shortspears (only 1 at a time though) and a buckler. Far shot would be great for the spears and the bolas, but as I read the rules Point Blank Shot is still completely worthless. Two Weapon fighting and Pounce would allow for a fun shortspears-shortswords combo that I thought of, but the level of barbarian really doesn't fit with the concept I have and I like the concept of an actual in and out skirmishing style (hence Spring Attack planned at 6) so I will have to try that another time, possibly with a Fighter/Tempest. If you attack with a nonlethal weapon can you apply nonlethal precision damage, ie. skirmish with bolas and do 1d4+2d6+Str nonlethal damage? If you can that seems like a good reason to take EWP-Bolas. Considered Dual-Strike for a while, but without the pounce ability (see above) it is too many wasted feats. Jaelis would you mind giving me a brief description of telling blow, vexing flanker/adaptable flanker, and elusive target as well as where to find them? I am not familiar with these feats. Run and Brachiation both fit the background/concept really well, and Brachiation is right on the line of too cool to give up even if it isn't the most useful feat in the world. I know my DM and if I take the feat I will get at least some use out of it. Thanks for all the feedback and advice, mostly I am just thinking out loud now. I normally do this with my roommates but they are all currently sleeping and I have the character on my mind.
Steidas 07-29-07, 02:47 AM	Hmm... only way I see it is Reach Weapon + Combat Reflexes + Hold the Line + Mage Slayer. You move and threaten the spellcaster, which will probably end up running away or closing up on you (run away would seem like the best choice). Anyone that gets near you will either: a.)Close up with movements and generate AoO for going through your reach. b.)Charge and get badly beat up. After that, it's your choice. You can just change Hold the Line and mage slayer for Combat Expertise + Improved Trip and STILL get AoO from charging and moving opponents as they pass through your threatend area with reach. You'd be a pile of guano against other enemies with reach, but hey, you get your skirmish for moving :) Not the best builds, but they use Combat Perplexes.
mostholy2 07-30-07, 09:36 AM	The skirmish ability clearly states in the first paragraph of the ability that "The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the scout's turn," which pretty much limits it to attacks made during your turn.ICS is correct about this. After re-reading the skirmish description, the extra skirmish damage only applies to attacks DURING the scout's turn. The bonus AC applies until the start of the scout's next turn. Reading too fast again. This, of course, makes combat reflexes even less useful for the scout. I would agree with others that if your DM is allowing CScoundrel, that Swift Hunter and Improved skirmish are very good feats to take for a scout or scout/ranger.
jaelis 07-30-07, 09:47 AM	Jaelis would you mind giving me a brief description of telling blow, vexing flanker/adaptable flanker, and elusive target as well as where to find them? I am not familiar with these feats. Telling blow (PHBII) lets you do your skirmish damage on a critical hit. Doesn't sound like it fits your concept too well. Vexing flanker (PHBII) increases your bonus to hit when you're flanking an opponent. I thought that since you'll be springing in and out of combat, you should be able to get flanks pretty easily. Adaptable flanker (PHBII) lets you flank from more squares than normal. Synergizes well with Vexing flanker if that sounds interesting. Elusive target (CW) does a bunch of good stuff. Opponents don't get their power attack bonus damage on you (but still take the penalty), you can trick opponents into attacking their ally instead of you, and you can make free trip attempt against opponents who miss you on an AoO provoked by your movement.