Combine Improved Trip with (Great) Cleave [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combine Improved Trip with (Great) Cleave [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Psyber7
05-16-07, 05:31 PM My gaming group recently had an interesting conversation about whether or not one can Cleave after successfully performing a trip attack with the Improved Trip feat.

CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

If one can cleave after ANY attack that "drops" an opponent, then that would conceivably permit the one doing the tripping 2 additional attacks; 1 against the tripped for Improved Trip, and then 1 usable against any opponent within reach for Cleave. By the same token, a monster with both the Awesome Blow and Cleave could succeed in knocking one opponent 10 feet away and prone, and cleave into another opponent within it's reach. The whole premise becomes even more ridiculous if it's used with Great Cleave...

Now choose a Spiked Chain as your weapon of choice here, and things get really funny. Especially if we make this dervish of tripping a Human Fighter through to level 4.

1st level Feats - Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, Cleave
2nd level Feat - Expertise
3rd level Feat - Improved Trip
4th level Feat - Great Cleave

And all we need for attributes are a 13 Strength and 13 Intelligence to qualify. The combination allows for a potentially vast number of attacks on anything adjacent and up to 10 feet away. And then begin leveling as a Rogue; for that extra Sneak Attack damage against all those prone targets who are now denied their Dexterity modifier to AC.

Now that I think about it more, this may have been one of those "power plays" published in Dragon Magazine at some point.

-=Pysber7=-
Droken
05-16-07, 05:45 PM By "drop" from cleave, they don't mean drop the opponent to the ground. They mean drop them dead. So, yes, you can utilize improved trip to get an additional attack from cleave if you KILL your opponent or knock them unconscious with the attack form your trip, but not simply just from tripping them.
ShinAkuma2
05-16-07, 05:47 PM There's no better response than a simple: No.

In short, tripping someone is not dropping someone. Dropping someone is KOing or killing/destroying him/her/it.
Krusk
05-16-07, 06:45 PM Cleave is pretty vauge feat, it says "(typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)" which leads me to believe there are other ways to gain a cleave attack. But the fact that this is a pretty obnoxious thing to do in an actual game leads me to say if i were DM i would rule that tripping is not a "typical" way to drop an opponent and it dosnt work.
wal9000
05-16-07, 08:23 PM There are some other situations when I might allow cleaving. Like a spell storing weapon going off and knocking them unconscious without lowering their HP below 0. Allowing trip would be too cheesy, and against the spirit of the feat. I'm not going to argue the RAW aspect of it, because RAW is an idiotic idea and nobody actually uses it aside from arguing whether things should be allowed or not.
runestar
05-16-07, 10:50 PM Problem is - is there an actual definition of what the "dropped" condition entails?

I can only find inferences derived from the cleave text. While I concur that it suggests that the triggering condition is when the target is reduced to negative hp, I share Krusk's sentiments in that the "typically..." suggests some other means of triggering cleave (though it was never really elaborated), and thus subject to rife speculation.

For example, a frenzied berserker can continue fighting even when he has negative hp. What happens if you reduce him to below zero hp? Do you get the bonus cleave attack even though he is not dead?

The cleave feat also suggests that it is possible to kill someone without reducing their hp below zero in melee combat. How might this be achieved?:confused:
Caspain
05-17-07, 02:33 AM An example of a non-typical 'drop' would be destroying an undead.

If you can convince your DM that you can Cleave with Tripping, I'd get a new DM.
ShinAkuma2
05-17-07, 12:47 PM Cleave is pretty vauge feat, it says "(typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)" which leads me to believe there are other ways to gain a cleave attack.

Another way is to use non-lethal damage. It drops an enemy without lowering his HP or killing him.

You could also argue that getting an undead/construct to exactly zero is another unique condition, since that's not actually "killing" anything.
Someone
05-17-07, 12:58 PM I forget who said it the last time this topic came up, but it was something along the lines of "drop" meaning "they are no more, have shucked loose the mortal coil, XP in the bank, still warm loot, in other words, an ex-opponent."

On the other hand, hit point loss isn't the only way. You could vorpal their head off. You could ability or level drain them (a wounding weapon, etc.) to zilch. You could turn them to stone or send them to another dimension (if you had some sort of prismatic based weapon). But prone isn't one of these.
runestar
05-17-07, 11:01 PM On the other hand, hit point loss isn't the only way. You could vorpal their head off. You could ability or level drain them (a wounding weapon, etc.) to zilch. You could turn them to stone or send them to another dimension (if you had some sort of prismatic based weapon). But prone isn't one of these.
But cleave explicitly states that you must deal damage...:confused:
Someone
05-18-07, 01:33 AM It also says "(... or killing it)".

Whadda ya mean, "straw grasping"?
NineInchNall
05-18-07, 12:28 PM But you don't kill undead and don't drop them below 0 hp. You destroy them.

:)
Frugal
05-18-07, 08:59 PM Also note that cleave requires dealing enough damage to drop the creature, trip does no damage, therefore doesn't qualify no matter how you want to read "drop".
quimerico
06-20-07, 11:54 AM Well, the actual text is "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)"...
So I guess it rule out a lot of things, including a trip attack, a vorpal sword, level drain or planar shifting weapon, although I don't think it excludes ability damage weapons (they deal damage, eve if it is ability damage...)

I never had that problem with Cleave (my players rarely have the chance to use it), but it's really a question of attention. The "deal enough damage" part is the key, not the "to make it drop".
tarkin
06-20-07, 12:17 PM The clear intent of this feat is to take someone down to 0 hp.

While a literalist reading could claim "Trip makes you drop", that does not make that interpreation sane, reasonable, fair, logical, balanced.

All it does is make you look like a s.o.b. intentionally trying to cheat the rules.

You may of course play that way if you so desire. I don't care one bit. Because I don't have to play in that game - and you would have to pay me a lot of US dollars to get me to do it.
stoicfaux
06-20-07, 12:20 PM Problem is - is there an actual definition of what the "dropped" condition entails?

I can only find inferences derived from the cleave text. While I concur that it suggests that the triggering condition is when the target is reduced to negative hp, I share Krusk's sentiments in that the "typically..." suggests some other means of triggering cleave (though it was never really elaborated), and thus subject to rife speculation.

For example, a frenzied berserker can continue fighting even when he has negative hp. What happens if you reduce him to below zero hp? Do you get the bonus cleave attack even though he is not dead?

The cleave feat also suggests that it is possible to kill someone without reducing their hp below zero in melee combat. How might this be achieved?:confused:

How about if due to your attack, your opponent is no longer threatening the area around him? If they're dead/destroyed/knocked out/held (sword of paralyzation?)/etc., they're no longer threatening.

A tripped opponent still threatens the area around them, so no cleave.
Elemmakil
06-20-07, 12:33 PM The cleave feat also suggests that it is possible to kill someone without reducing their hp below zero in melee combat. How might this be achieved?:confused:Death by massive damage.

I'm aware that the "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" makes this a bit hazy, because death by massive damage has 2 requirements, one of which is damage and the other is a failed fort save. I'd rule that if you dealt damage and hence caused the creature to drop, even if there was some additional requirement, cleave works.

-Elemmakil
Frugal
06-20-07, 12:57 PM Death by massive damage.

I'm aware that the "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" makes this a bit hazy, because death by massive damage has 2 requirements, one of which is damage and the other is a failed fort save. I'd rule that if you dealt damage and hence caused the creature to drop, even if there was some additional requirement, cleave works.

-Elemmakil

I'd also agree that works, dealing the damage triggered the need for a fort save so it's fair game.
Pentar
06-20-07, 04:26 PM I think they're purposefully vague when referring to "dropping" a creature because of all the reasons mentioned above, and the fact that there may be other ways to "drop" a creature that does not necessitate bringing its hit points down to 0.

If you have a weapon that can poison or deals ability score damage, dropping a creature's ability score to 0 either kills or knocks it unconscious... which is a valid form of "dropping" a creature.

If you have a weapon that can cast a spell through it and it puts the creature to Sleep or renders it unconscious, then that is also a valid form of "dropping" a creature.

If the wording had been "killed", then I am certain you would have gotten rules and language lawyers out claiming, "well you cannot kill undead/constructs/non-living beings", ergo you cannot Cleave them.

The intention cannot be more clear though; dropping an opponent means they are no longer a threat to you for the immediate purposes of that combat. Someone above said it best, a "dropped" creature is no longer threatening, so that's a good way to define it. But be careful there, a creature that has been disarmed is also no longer threatening - you cannot cleave after a successful disarm (unless you somehow actually drop the creature in the process of disarming them - I have no idea how that would work).
BugHunter
06-20-07, 08:29 PM This would be one way to get the cleave attack with improved trip.

1. Successful trip attack, target is on the ground.

2. Make successful melee attack from the improved trip causing enough
damage to take the target to zero or lower hps. Now the attack for
cleave can be taken.
ravenshrike
06-21-07, 12:21 AM There are some other situations when I might allow cleaving. Like a spell storing weapon going off and knocking them unconscious without lowering their HP below 0. Allowing trip would be too cheesy, and against the spirit of the feat. I'm not going to argue the RAW aspect of it, because RAW is an idiotic idea and nobody actually uses it aside from arguing whether things should be allowed or not.

Arguably the point behind cleave is that you've caused your opponent to get out of your way entirely and can use the continued momentum of your weapon to take someone else out. This could work and would make sense mechanically. Probably not what was intended mind you. But still theoretically possible.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psyber7 05-16-07, 05:31 PM	My gaming group recently had an interesting conversation about whether or not one can Cleave after successfully performing a trip attack with the Improved Trip feat. CLEAVE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats. IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise. Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites. A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats. If one can cleave after ANY attack that "drops" an opponent, then that would conceivably permit the one doing the tripping 2 additional attacks; 1 against the tripped for Improved Trip, and then 1 usable against any opponent within reach for Cleave. By the same token, a monster with both the Awesome Blow and Cleave could succeed in knocking one opponent 10 feet away and prone, and cleave into another opponent within it's reach. The whole premise becomes even more ridiculous if it's used with Great Cleave... Now choose a Spiked Chain as your weapon of choice here, and things get really funny. Especially if we make this dervish of tripping a Human Fighter through to level 4. 1st level Feats - Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, Cleave 2nd level Feat - Expertise 3rd level Feat - Improved Trip 4th level Feat - Great Cleave And all we need for attributes are a 13 Strength and 13 Intelligence to qualify. The combination allows for a potentially vast number of attacks on anything adjacent and up to 10 feet away. And then begin leveling as a Rogue; for that extra Sneak Attack damage against all those prone targets who are now denied their Dexterity modifier to AC. Now that I think about it more, this may have been one of those "power plays" published in Dragon Magazine at some point. -=Pysber7=-
Droken 05-16-07, 05:45 PM	By "drop" from cleave, they don't mean drop the opponent to the ground. They mean drop them dead. So, yes, you can utilize improved trip to get an additional attack from cleave if you KILL your opponent or knock them unconscious with the attack form your trip, but not simply just from tripping them.
ShinAkuma2 05-16-07, 05:47 PM	There's no better response than a simple: No. In short, tripping someone is not dropping someone. Dropping someone is KOing or killing/destroying him/her/it.
Krusk 05-16-07, 06:45 PM	Cleave is pretty vauge feat, it says "(typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)" which leads me to believe there are other ways to gain a cleave attack. But the fact that this is a pretty obnoxious thing to do in an actual game leads me to say if i were DM i would rule that tripping is not a "typical" way to drop an opponent and it dosnt work.
wal9000 05-16-07, 08:23 PM	There are some other situations when I might allow cleaving. Like a spell storing weapon going off and knocking them unconscious without lowering their HP below 0. Allowing trip would be too cheesy, and against the spirit of the feat. I'm not going to argue the RAW aspect of it, because RAW is an idiotic idea and nobody actually uses it aside from arguing whether things should be allowed or not.
runestar 05-16-07, 10:50 PM	Problem is - is there an actual definition of what the "dropped" condition entails? I can only find inferences derived from the cleave text. While I concur that it suggests that the triggering condition is when the target is reduced to negative hp, I share Krusk's sentiments in that the "typically..." suggests some other means of triggering cleave (though it was never really elaborated), and thus subject to rife speculation. For example, a frenzied berserker can continue fighting even when he has negative hp. What happens if you reduce him to below zero hp? Do you get the bonus cleave attack even though he is not dead? The cleave feat also suggests that it is possible to kill someone without reducing their hp below zero in melee combat. How might this be achieved?:confused:
Caspain 05-17-07, 02:33 AM	An example of a non-typical 'drop' would be destroying an undead. If you can convince your DM that you can Cleave with Tripping, I'd get a new DM.
ShinAkuma2 05-17-07, 12:47 PM	Cleave is pretty vauge feat, it says "(typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)" which leads me to believe there are other ways to gain a cleave attack. Another way is to use non-lethal damage. It drops an enemy without lowering his HP or killing him. You could also argue that getting an undead/construct to exactly zero is another unique condition, since that's not actually "killing" anything.
Someone 05-17-07, 12:58 PM	I forget who said it the last time this topic came up, but it was something along the lines of "drop" meaning "they are no more, have shucked loose the mortal coil, XP in the bank, still warm loot, in other words, an ex-opponent." On the other hand, hit point loss isn't the only way. You could vorpal their head off. You could ability or level drain them (a wounding weapon, etc.) to zilch. You could turn them to stone or send them to another dimension (if you had some sort of prismatic based weapon). But prone isn't one of these.
runestar 05-17-07, 11:01 PM	On the other hand, hit point loss isn't the only way. You could vorpal their head off. You could ability or level drain them (a wounding weapon, etc.) to zilch. You could turn them to stone or send them to another dimension (if you had some sort of prismatic based weapon). But prone isn't one of these. But cleave explicitly states that you must deal damage...:confused:
Someone 05-18-07, 01:33 AM	It also says "(... or killing it)". Whadda ya mean, "straw grasping"?
NineInchNall 05-18-07, 12:28 PM	But you don't kill undead and don't drop them below 0 hp. You destroy them. :)
Frugal 05-18-07, 08:59 PM	Also note that cleave requires dealing enough damage to drop the creature, trip does no damage, therefore doesn't qualify no matter how you want to read "drop".
quimerico 06-20-07, 11:54 AM	Well, the actual text is "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)"... So I guess it rule out a lot of things, including a trip attack, a vorpal sword, level drain or planar shifting weapon, although I don't think it excludes ability damage weapons (they deal damage, eve if it is ability damage...) I never had that problem with Cleave (my players rarely have the chance to use it), but it's really a question of attention. The "deal enough damage" part is the key, not the "to make it drop".
tarkin 06-20-07, 12:17 PM	The clear intent of this feat is to take someone down to 0 hp. While a literalist reading could claim "Trip makes you drop", that does not make that interpreation sane, reasonable, fair, logical, balanced. All it does is make you look like a s.o.b. intentionally trying to cheat the rules. You may of course play that way if you so desire. I don't care one bit. Because I don't have to play in that game - and you would have to pay me a lot of US dollars to get me to do it.
stoicfaux 06-20-07, 12:20 PM	Problem is - is there an actual definition of what the "dropped" condition entails? I can only find inferences derived from the cleave text. While I concur that it suggests that the triggering condition is when the target is reduced to negative hp, I share Krusk's sentiments in that the "typically..." suggests some other means of triggering cleave (though it was never really elaborated), and thus subject to rife speculation. For example, a frenzied berserker can continue fighting even when he has negative hp. What happens if you reduce him to below zero hp? Do you get the bonus cleave attack even though he is not dead? The cleave feat also suggests that it is possible to kill someone without reducing their hp below zero in melee combat. How might this be achieved?:confused: How about if due to your attack, your opponent is no longer threatening the area around him? If they're dead/destroyed/knocked out/held (sword of paralyzation?)/etc., they're no longer threatening. A tripped opponent still threatens the area around them, so no cleave.
Elemmakil 06-20-07, 12:33 PM	The cleave feat also suggests that it is possible to kill someone without reducing their hp below zero in melee combat. How might this be achieved?:confused:Death by massive damage. I'm aware that the "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" makes this a bit hazy, because death by massive damage has 2 requirements, one of which is damage and the other is a failed fort save. I'd rule that if you dealt damage and hence caused the creature to drop, even if there was some additional requirement, cleave works. -Elemmakil
Frugal 06-20-07, 12:57 PM	Death by massive damage. I'm aware that the "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" makes this a bit hazy, because death by massive damage has 2 requirements, one of which is damage and the other is a failed fort save. I'd rule that if you dealt damage and hence caused the creature to drop, even if there was some additional requirement, cleave works. -Elemmakil I'd also agree that works, dealing the damage triggered the need for a fort save so it's fair game.
Pentar 06-20-07, 04:26 PM	I think they're purposefully vague when referring to "dropping" a creature because of all the reasons mentioned above, and the fact that there may be other ways to "drop" a creature that does not necessitate bringing its hit points down to 0. If you have a weapon that can poison or deals ability score damage, dropping a creature's ability score to 0 either kills or knocks it unconscious... which is a valid form of "dropping" a creature. If you have a weapon that can cast a spell through it and it puts the creature to Sleep or renders it unconscious, then that is also a valid form of "dropping" a creature. If the wording had been "killed", then I am certain you would have gotten rules and language lawyers out claiming, "well you cannot kill undead/constructs/non-living beings", ergo you cannot Cleave them. The intention cannot be more clear though; dropping an opponent means they are no longer a threat to you for the immediate purposes of that combat. Someone above said it best, a "dropped" creature is no longer threatening, so that's a good way to define it. But be careful there, a creature that has been disarmed is also no longer threatening - you cannot cleave after a successful disarm (unless you somehow actually drop the creature in the process of disarming them - I have no idea how that would work).
BugHunter 06-20-07, 08:29 PM	This would be one way to get the cleave attack with improved trip. 1. Successful trip attack, target is on the ground. 2. Make successful melee attack from the improved trip causing enough damage to take the target to zero or lower hps. Now the attack for cleave can be taken.
ravenshrike 06-21-07, 12:21 AM	There are some other situations when I might allow cleaving. Like a spell storing weapon going off and knocking them unconscious without lowering their HP below 0. Allowing trip would be too cheesy, and against the spirit of the feat. I'm not going to argue the RAW aspect of it, because RAW is an idiotic idea and nobody actually uses it aside from arguing whether things should be allowed or not. Arguably the point behind cleave is that you've caused your opponent to get out of your way entirely and can use the continued momentum of your weapon to take someone else out. This could work and would make sense mechanically. Probably not what was intended mind you. But still theoretically possible.