Combining paladin's mount and leadership (as per DMG 200) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combining paladin's mount and leadership (as per DMG 200) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
10-25-07, 12:22 AM How does this work?

Let's say a paladin 6 has a unicorn mount, and takes the leadership feat to give it cleric levels.

How do you do this?

Do you say that the cost of the unicorn is "paid for" by the special mount class feature, and that leadership adds class levels, along with an LA +2, suggested by the DMG on page 200, so a paladin 6 has a unicorn with four magical beast hit dice, two bonus animal hit dice, and 4 "effective levels" from the leadership feat, two of which go to an additional LA of +2, and two of which go to two cleric levels?

Or do you say that the unicorn has a cohort ECL of 8 by default, and if combined with the paladin's mount feature, has a total cohort ECL of 10, so a paladin doesn't add any class levels until the leadership feat would allow him a level 11 cohort, at which point the mount-cohort can have a cleric level of the cohort level -10?

Or do you say that the unicorn's bonus hit dice are incorporated into ECL, so it basically never gets cleric levels pre-epic? (the mount-cohort without class levels has an ECL of 12 (4 magic beast HD, 2 bonus animal HD, LA +4 by default, LA +2 from being a cohort-mount) from paladin levels 6-8, an ECL of 14 from paladin levels 9-11, an ECL of 16 from paladin levels 12-15, and an ECL of 18 from paladin levels 16-20.
JulesCARV
10-26-07, 01:41 PM I'd e-mail customer service, but I'm scared of them.

So, is the passage on Cohort Mounts on page 200 of the DMG just incomprehensibly vague, and no one has successfully figured out what it means?
Thunder Dragonbane
10-27-07, 01:03 PM You might be better off taking the hit to your leadership score and getting both the mount and a cleric. The mount will never be as good as a full cleric will be.
JulesCARV
10-27-07, 05:28 PM You might be better off taking the hit to your leadership score and getting both the mount and a cleric. The mount will never be as good as a full cleric will be.

I'll be charitable and assume that you made an honest attempt to answer my question, looking over DMG 200 and trying to figure out the rules, but that you were unable to figure it out, so you decided to answer a completely different question because you figured it was better than nothing at all. In that case, thank you.
Beckettvampire
10-28-07, 12:30 AM Are you asking how to make a unicorn into a cleric? I mean I understand that you want a Unicorn as your pali mount, but is that the question you don't understand?

If so, you just take the unicorn from the MM., as if it where that level of a character. I don't have my MM, but I'm thinking it is like 4HD and +3 LA(cohort). If so, that is basically a 7th level character already. Now add your pali benefits, like increased spead str and con.

Now treat it as if it where any other class that is now multiclassing into it's first level of Cleric. It adds its +0 Base Attack, +2 Fort, +0 Refl, +2 Will, 2+Int Mod Cleric Skills, and pick two Domains. They have 1st Level Cleric Spell Casting, which is seperate from its Unicorn spellcasting, in all ways, like caster level. (Unless it says something like "A Unicorn cast spells as a ? level Cleric" than you add your actual cleric level to that number.)

All in all, it makes a powerful unicorn, but a weak Cleric, so I'd second the just get a horse and a cleric cohort idea. However, that makes another problem. The cleric will be stronger than the pali. . . even at two+ levels lower.
JulesCARV
10-28-07, 12:50 AM What I'm really asking for is an explanation of the rules on page 200 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, under the heading "Paladin Cohort Mounts."

In a "DM Rules Counseling" thread on the same topic, Marcus Majarra seems to have largely answered my question (it turns out to be the middle one in my original post, according to him -- with leadership, a unicorn paladin's mount could have additional class equal to permitted cohort level -10.)
Thunder Dragonbane
10-28-07, 11:51 AM I'll be charitable and assume that you made an honest attempt to answer my question, looking over DMG 200 and trying to figure out the rules, but that you were unable to figure it out, so you decided to answer a completely different question because you figured it was better than nothing at all. In that case, thank you.

Yes I have read the section. I still say get both. (No it is not answering a different question, I am simply giving you one that you do not like to hear.)

A unicorn mount is powerfull, but will be a weak cleric. A single class cleric even at level -4 due to having a mount will be stronger than the unicorn cleric.

Isn't there some restriction on getting a unicorn in the first place?
Tordak
10-28-07, 02:06 PM I'm not sure this is relevant, but since you now only summon your special mount do you get to use it as a cohort?
JulesCARV
10-28-07, 03:40 PM (No it is not answering a different question, I am simply giving you one that you do not like to hear.)

How so?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 10-25-07, 12:22 AM	How does this work? Let's say a paladin 6 has a unicorn mount, and takes the leadership feat to give it cleric levels. How do you do this? Do you say that the cost of the unicorn is "paid for" by the special mount class feature, and that leadership adds class levels, along with an LA +2, suggested by the DMG on page 200, so a paladin 6 has a unicorn with four magical beast hit dice, two bonus animal hit dice, and 4 "effective levels" from the leadership feat, two of which go to an additional LA of +2, and two of which go to two cleric levels? Or do you say that the unicorn has a cohort ECL of 8 by default, and if combined with the paladin's mount feature, has a total cohort ECL of 10, so a paladin doesn't add any class levels until the leadership feat would allow him a level 11 cohort, at which point the mount-cohort can have a cleric level of the cohort level -10? Or do you say that the unicorn's bonus hit dice are incorporated into ECL, so it basically never gets cleric levels pre-epic? (the mount-cohort without class levels has an ECL of 12 (4 magic beast HD, 2 bonus animal HD, LA +4 by default, LA +2 from being a cohort-mount) from paladin levels 6-8, an ECL of 14 from paladin levels 9-11, an ECL of 16 from paladin levels 12-15, and an ECL of 18 from paladin levels 16-20.
JulesCARV 10-26-07, 01:41 PM	I'd e-mail customer service, but I'm scared of them. So, is the passage on Cohort Mounts on page 200 of the DMG just incomprehensibly vague, and no one has successfully figured out what it means?
Thunder Dragonbane 10-27-07, 01:03 PM	You might be better off taking the hit to your leadership score and getting both the mount and a cleric. The mount will never be as good as a full cleric will be.
JulesCARV 10-27-07, 05:28 PM	You might be better off taking the hit to your leadership score and getting both the mount and a cleric. The mount will never be as good as a full cleric will be. I'll be charitable and assume that you made an honest attempt to answer my question, looking over DMG 200 and trying to figure out the rules, but that you were unable to figure it out, so you decided to answer a completely different question because you figured it was better than nothing at all. In that case, thank you.
Beckettvampire 10-28-07, 12:30 AM	Are you asking how to make a unicorn into a cleric? I mean I understand that you want a Unicorn as your pali mount, but is that the question you don't understand? If so, you just take the unicorn from the MM., as if it where that level of a character. I don't have my MM, but I'm thinking it is like 4HD and +3 LA(cohort). If so, that is basically a 7th level character already. Now add your pali benefits, like increased spead str and con. Now treat it as if it where any other class that is now multiclassing into it's first level of Cleric. It adds its +0 Base Attack, +2 Fort, +0 Refl, +2 Will, 2+Int Mod Cleric Skills, and pick two Domains. They have 1st Level Cleric Spell Casting, which is seperate from its Unicorn spellcasting, in all ways, like caster level. (Unless it says something like "A Unicorn cast spells as a ? level Cleric" than you add your actual cleric level to that number.) All in all, it makes a powerful unicorn, but a weak Cleric, so I'd second the just get a horse and a cleric cohort idea. However, that makes another problem. The cleric will be stronger than the pali. . . even at two+ levels lower.
JulesCARV 10-28-07, 12:50 AM	What I'm really asking for is an explanation of the rules on page 200 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, under the heading "Paladin Cohort Mounts." In a "DM Rules Counseling" thread on the same topic, Marcus Majarra seems to have largely answered my question (it turns out to be the middle one in my original post, according to him -- with leadership, a unicorn paladin's mount could have additional class equal to permitted cohort level -10.)
Thunder Dragonbane 10-28-07, 11:51 AM	I'll be charitable and assume that you made an honest attempt to answer my question, looking over DMG 200 and trying to figure out the rules, but that you were unable to figure it out, so you decided to answer a completely different question because you figured it was better than nothing at all. In that case, thank you. Yes I have read the section. I still say get both. (No it is not answering a different question, I am simply giving you one that you do not like to hear.) A unicorn mount is powerfull, but will be a weak cleric. A single class cleric even at level -4 due to having a mount will be stronger than the unicorn cleric. Isn't there some restriction on getting a unicorn in the first place?
Tordak 10-28-07, 02:06 PM	I'm not sure this is relevant, but since you now only summon your special mount do you get to use it as a cohort?
JulesCARV 10-28-07, 03:40 PM	(No it is not answering a different question, I am simply giving you one that you do not like to hear.) How so?