Combining Tactical Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combining Tactical Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fuseboy
05-16-07, 08:52 PM Can you gain the benefits of your tactical feats whenever you meet the pre-requisites, or can you only be performing (or warming up for) a single tactical feat at a time?

Imagine a Fighter with Combat Brute and Shock Trooper. Can he do a Directed Bull Rush on round one, then a Momentum Swing on round two? Essentially, can the charge carried out as part of the Directed Bull Rush be the pre-requisite charge for the Momentum Swing?

Or, for that matter, can you do a Heedless Charge followed by a Momentum Swing?

Another slammin' example would be Directed Bull Rush followed by Advancing Blows.

For that matter, you can meet the "round one" pre-requisites for both Momentum Swing and Advancing Blows by doing a charging bull rush (or a Domino Rush) - can you use them simultaneously? Bull rush someone as part of a charge on the first round, then gain both bonuses? (Ouch - pass me a calculator.)

I'm not familiar enough with power levels in D&D to know whether this kind of feat combination is what powerful fighters are all about, or whether it's not intended that they be combined in this way.
Deep Blue 9000
05-17-07, 04:28 AM Can you gain the benefits of your tactical feats whenever you meet the pre-requisites, or can you only be performing (or warming up for) a single tactical feat at a time?

You can use any number of tactical feats simultaneously so long as you meet the conditions for all of them.

I'm not familiar enough with power levels in D&D to know whether this kind of feat combination is what powerful fighters are all about, or whether it's not intended that they be combined in this way.

Generally combining tactical feats is ok but there is some opinion that those two in particular are "broken."
Warduke
05-17-07, 05:03 AM Yeah the tactical feats are pretty much broken. Especially if you are using multiple other books to obtain feats from.

One of the players I play with disagreed with me. I don't remember the exact build I made but it pretty much went like this.

11th level half ogre fighter/barb (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) with Leap attack, A tactical feat or two (cant remember the exact names) power attack and maybe something else.

Bottom line was he could charge from halfway across the table leap over most anything in his way and smack stuff with his great axe for 50+ with almost no chance to miss. Granted his AC was like a 4 or 5 after he did it, but he had a Dragonlance feat called Heroic Surge so after he did this move he still had an extra move action (50 feet) to get out of the way of anything he didnt drop. I wont even bother talking much about what happened when he crit using that move.
Mystyc
05-17-07, 12:07 PM 11th level half ogre fighter/barb (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) with Leap attack, A tactical feat or two (cant remember the exact names) power attack and maybe something else.

In what way is this more broken than flesh to stone, disintegrate, or any of numerous other spells available to an effective 12th-level character?
Grizzled Gryphon
05-17-07, 12:16 PM In what way is this more broken than flesh to stone, disintegrate, or any of numerous other spells available to an effective 12th-level character?

Uhh... Well... Uhh... it's uh... it's uh... It's being done without magic!! Yeah, THAT is why this is broken!! I mean, what kind of person has the odacity to make such a broken fighter that he might actually be effective? Come on, we all know the fighter is the weakest class in the game, so anything that makes one effective HAS to be broken, man!!

LOL:P
Fuseboy
05-18-07, 08:56 AM That's an interesting point. That barbarian is optimized for single-monster kills and, while he can do it with apparent impunity, he's still vulnerable to held actions (isn't he?). Compared with a 12th-level Wizard launching destructive spells from the back, it doesn't seem that bad.
Warduke
05-18-07, 05:11 PM In what way is this more broken than flesh to stone, disintegrate, or any of numerous other spells available to an effective 12th-level character?

Well both the spells you mentioned both have fort saves to either fully negate damage (Flesh to Stone) or minimal damage 5D6 (disintegrate). Fort saves are typically the hardest saves to get things to fail. Not to mention at 11th level a Wizard can prolly try those once or twice a day before needing to rest.

I looked up the actual character I was talking about. Here was the mechanic.

Full Heedless Charge (With leap attack) = +22 to Attack 1D12+45 (+24 1D12 +48 While Raging)
AC = 6 (4 While raging) *** Dodge Bonus can add 1 to this.

I think the biggest issue (as I mentioned in the original post) is not the tactical feats by themselves, but combos used with them from other splat and or D20 sources. In this case the Heroic Surge feat which allowed him to move back out of combat (50feet at that) was the issue. A melee character dealing that much damage from essentially a ranged area and not having to worry about taking a full attack from whatever he just hit is a little broken IMHO.

This character of course still had weaknesses I agree. This mechanic was still a bit broken none-the-less.

My definition of broken may differ from yours anyway. Any feat, splat, combo, whatever that makes the majority of any random type of combat a joke is broken in my opinion. Of course a good DM can always make challenging encounters when he gears them to stopping certain character strengths or weaknesses, but that should be needed less often than not IMO.
Gorbeck
05-18-07, 06:50 PM To the OP, I actually wrote to Wizards Support with this same question a few months ago. Their answer was that as long as all prerequisites of the attacks were met, then mechanically it would work. There was, of course, the standard disclaimer though: Since this interaction isn't specifically covered in the rules then it's at the discretion of the DM. So we can break your question down by prereqs. Directed Bull Rush only requires that you charge your opponent. Momentum Swing only requires a successful charge. A successful Directed Bull Rush equals a successful charge, therefore you you've met the prereqs for Momentum Swing.

Personally, I don't see anything broken about this. What's wrong with combining actions? If you can draw a sword while running why can't you leap over a table and come down with an attack?
Raveni
05-18-07, 07:00 PM Is it more powerful? Sure. And maybe the examples given before were not the best ones, but you can see what kind of power a 12th level wizard can unleash at that level. And you need to find a way to make the negatives from a tactical maneuver have consequences. In the game I play in, the fighter never uses Shock Trooper unless he's cutting down someone on the edge of the encounter or has a ton of backup from the party. Though it is fun to watch him poke a hole in the center of the enemy, then have the rogue and cleric follow him in for support while I try to minimize the counter-attacks with slow or disabling spells.

Maybe you should replace Heroic Surge with the newer Action Surge feat from Eberron? Still a bit cheesy to use that in a campaign where most characters aren't using Action Points, but it would limit the number of times this feat could be used.
Fuseboy
05-19-07, 08:52 AM To the OP, I actually wrote to Wizards Support with this same question a few months ago. Their answer was that as long as all prerequisites of the attacks were met, then mechanically it would work. There was, of course, the standard disclaimer ... it's at the discretion of the DM.

Thanks very much, that's helpful.

Personally, I don't see anything broken about this. What's wrong with combining actions? If you can draw a sword while running why can't you leap over a table and come down with an attack?

The successive special moves don't really seem problematic to me. It's more the simultaneous special moves. The densest (though not the most practical) combo I could come up with is this:

Round one, with two enemies 10' apart or less, you Directed Bull Rush and Domino Rush at the same time.

Then (and this is the silly part) you get someone else to bull rush (or use magic) your original target to push them far enough way from you that you can charge in the second round.

Second round, you then Heedless Charge, Momentum Swing and Advancing Blows your target at the same time.

If your original bull rush pushed the target back 10', and with BAB 8 and a two-handed weapon, that would give you (not including strength, weapon focus, etc.) +12 to hit, +26 damage and -10 to your AC.
kalstrand
05-19-07, 02:55 PM Maybe you should replace Heroic Surge with the newer Action Surge feat from Eberron? Still a bit cheesy to use that in a campaign where most characters aren't using Action Points, but it would limit the number of times this feat could be used.

Heroic Surge is limited to once per 4 or once per 5 character levels anyway.
Fuseboy
05-19-07, 04:09 PM Then (and this is the silly part) you get someone else to bull rush (or use magic) your original target to push them far enough way from you that you can charge in the second round.

Oh, actually, found a simpler way. Use Charging Minotaur from the Tome of Battle so you can shove your opponent long distances without having to follow through yourself.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fuseboy 05-16-07, 08:52 PM	Can you gain the benefits of your tactical feats whenever you meet the pre-requisites, or can you only be performing (or warming up for) a single tactical feat at a time? Imagine a Fighter with Combat Brute and Shock Trooper. Can he do a Directed Bull Rush on round one, then a Momentum Swing on round two? Essentially, can the charge carried out as part of the Directed Bull Rush be the pre-requisite charge for the Momentum Swing? Or, for that matter, can you do a Heedless Charge followed by a Momentum Swing? Another slammin' example would be Directed Bull Rush followed by Advancing Blows. For that matter, you can meet the "round one" pre-requisites for both Momentum Swing and Advancing Blows by doing a charging bull rush (or a Domino Rush) - can you use them simultaneously? Bull rush someone as part of a charge on the first round, then gain both bonuses? (Ouch - pass me a calculator.) I'm not familiar enough with power levels in D&D to know whether this kind of feat combination is what powerful fighters are all about, or whether it's not intended that they be combined in this way.
Deep Blue 9000 05-17-07, 04:28 AM	Can you gain the benefits of your tactical feats whenever you meet the pre-requisites, or can you only be performing (or warming up for) a single tactical feat at a time? You can use any number of tactical feats simultaneously so long as you meet the conditions for all of them. I'm not familiar enough with power levels in D&D to know whether this kind of feat combination is what powerful fighters are all about, or whether it's not intended that they be combined in this way. Generally combining tactical feats is ok but there is some opinion that those two in particular are "broken."
Warduke 05-17-07, 05:03 AM	Yeah the tactical feats are pretty much broken. Especially if you are using multiple other books to obtain feats from. One of the players I play with disagreed with me. I don't remember the exact build I made but it pretty much went like this. 11th level half ogre fighter/barb (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) with Leap attack, A tactical feat or two (cant remember the exact names) power attack and maybe something else. Bottom line was he could charge from halfway across the table leap over most anything in his way and smack stuff with his great axe for 50+ with almost no chance to miss. Granted his AC was like a 4 or 5 after he did it, but he had a Dragonlance feat called Heroic Surge so after he did this move he still had an extra move action (50 feet) to get out of the way of anything he didnt drop. I wont even bother talking much about what happened when he crit using that move.
Mystyc 05-17-07, 12:07 PM	11th level half ogre fighter/barb (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) with Leap attack, A tactical feat or two (cant remember the exact names) power attack and maybe something else. In what way is this more broken than flesh to stone, disintegrate, or any of numerous other spells available to an effective 12th-level character?
Grizzled Gryphon 05-17-07, 12:16 PM	In what way is this more broken than flesh to stone, disintegrate, or any of numerous other spells available to an effective 12th-level character? Uhh... Well... Uhh... it's uh... it's uh... It's being done without magic!! Yeah, THAT is why this is broken!! I mean, what kind of person has the odacity to make such a broken fighter that he might actually be effective? Come on, we all know the fighter is the weakest class in the game, so anything that makes one effective HAS to be broken, man!! LOL:P
Fuseboy 05-18-07, 08:56 AM	That's an interesting point. That barbarian is optimized for single-monster kills and, while he can do it with apparent impunity, he's still vulnerable to held actions (isn't he?). Compared with a 12th-level Wizard launching destructive spells from the back, it doesn't seem that bad.
Warduke 05-18-07, 05:11 PM	In what way is this more broken than flesh to stone, disintegrate, or any of numerous other spells available to an effective 12th-level character? Well both the spells you mentioned both have fort saves to either fully negate damage (Flesh to Stone) or minimal damage 5D6 (disintegrate). Fort saves are typically the hardest saves to get things to fail. Not to mention at 11th level a Wizard can prolly try those once or twice a day before needing to rest. I looked up the actual character I was talking about. Here was the mechanic. Full Heedless Charge (With leap attack) = +22 to Attack 1D12+45 (+24 1D12 +48 While Raging) AC = 6 (4 While raging) *** Dodge Bonus can add 1 to this. I think the biggest issue (as I mentioned in the original post) is not the tactical feats by themselves, but combos used with them from other splat and or D20 sources. In this case the Heroic Surge feat which allowed him to move back out of combat (50feet at that) was the issue. A melee character dealing that much damage from essentially a ranged area and not having to worry about taking a full attack from whatever he just hit is a little broken IMHO. This character of course still had weaknesses I agree. This mechanic was still a bit broken none-the-less. My definition of broken may differ from yours anyway. Any feat, splat, combo, whatever that makes the majority of any random type of combat a joke is broken in my opinion. Of course a good DM can always make challenging encounters when he gears them to stopping certain character strengths or weaknesses, but that should be needed less often than not IMO.
Gorbeck 05-18-07, 06:50 PM	To the OP, I actually wrote to Wizards Support with this same question a few months ago. Their answer was that as long as all prerequisites of the attacks were met, then mechanically it would work. There was, of course, the standard disclaimer though: Since this interaction isn't specifically covered in the rules then it's at the discretion of the DM. So we can break your question down by prereqs. Directed Bull Rush only requires that you charge your opponent. Momentum Swing only requires a successful charge. A successful Directed Bull Rush equals a successful charge, therefore you you've met the prereqs for Momentum Swing. Personally, I don't see anything broken about this. What's wrong with combining actions? If you can draw a sword while running why can't you leap over a table and come down with an attack?
Raveni 05-18-07, 07:00 PM	Is it more powerful? Sure. And maybe the examples given before were not the best ones, but you can see what kind of power a 12th level wizard can unleash at that level. And you need to find a way to make the negatives from a tactical maneuver have consequences. In the game I play in, the fighter never uses Shock Trooper unless he's cutting down someone on the edge of the encounter or has a ton of backup from the party. Though it is fun to watch him poke a hole in the center of the enemy, then have the rogue and cleric follow him in for support while I try to minimize the counter-attacks with slow or disabling spells. Maybe you should replace Heroic Surge with the newer Action Surge feat from Eberron? Still a bit cheesy to use that in a campaign where most characters aren't using Action Points, but it would limit the number of times this feat could be used.
Fuseboy 05-19-07, 08:52 AM	To the OP, I actually wrote to Wizards Support with this same question a few months ago. Their answer was that as long as all prerequisites of the attacks were met, then mechanically it would work. There was, of course, the standard disclaimer ... it's at the discretion of the DM. Thanks very much, that's helpful. Personally, I don't see anything broken about this. What's wrong with combining actions? If you can draw a sword while running why can't you leap over a table and come down with an attack? The successive special moves don't really seem problematic to me. It's more the simultaneous special moves. The densest (though not the most practical) combo I could come up with is this: Round one, with two enemies 10' apart or less, you Directed Bull Rush and Domino Rush at the same time. Then (and this is the silly part) you get someone else to bull rush (or use magic) your original target to push them far enough way from you that you can charge in the second round. Second round, you then Heedless Charge, Momentum Swing and Advancing Blows your target at the same time. If your original bull rush pushed the target back 10', and with BAB 8 and a two-handed weapon, that would give you (not including strength, weapon focus, etc.) +12 to hit, +26 damage and -10 to your AC.
kalstrand 05-19-07, 02:55 PM	Maybe you should replace Heroic Surge with the newer Action Surge feat from Eberron? Still a bit cheesy to use that in a campaign where most characters aren't using Action Points, but it would limit the number of times this feat could be used. Heroic Surge is limited to once per 4 or once per 5 character levels anyway.
Fuseboy 05-19-07, 04:09 PM	Then (and this is the silly part) you get someone else to bull rush (or use magic) your original target to push them far enough way from you that you can charge in the second round. Oh, actually, found a simpler way. Use Charging Minotaur from the Tome of Battle so you can shove your opponent long distances without having to follow through yourself.