Cometary Two-Weapon Pounce [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cometary Two-Weapon Pounce [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GreyStar
03-23-07, 11:28 AM Could a fighter with Cometary Collision and Two-Weapon Pounce use the benefits Two-Weapon Pounce in place of the benefits of Cometary Collision?

The way I figure it, Collision lets you ready a charge action, then replaces the normal benefits. Once you are charging you could choose replace your Collision Benefits with the attack with weapons.

Does that seem legal?
Southernskies
03-24-07, 04:34 AM Yes. Both of the feats flow into each other through the rules and you can take it a step further.

Readied action to charge foe -> Cometary Collision -> Two Weapon Pounce -> Two Weapon Rend

None of those feats stop you using the next option in the chain; just make sure you apply each in the sequence to get the attack bonuses and damage bonuses to the right value.

For the full chain above, you would get +0/+0 with +4 on damage rolls (and a -2 AC penalty for the charge), if both attacks hit, you deal an extra 1d6 + 4 + 1-1/2 times Strength for the rend.

Really nasty, but with the BAB and feat requirements, you would expect some sort of return to do it.
GreyStar
03-24-07, 10:59 AM I was going to take it a touch further with Powerful Charge and Monkey Grip later on.
Batshido
03-24-07, 12:39 PM I was going to take it a touch further with Powerful Charge and Monkey Grip later on.

And by "Monkey Grip" you mean Leap Attack, right?
Neodymium
03-24-07, 01:10 PM And by "Monkey Grip" you mean Leap Attack, right?
and a pair of StrongArm Bracers.
GreyStar
03-24-07, 07:10 PM No, not Leap Attack, though that's also a good idea. Monkey Grip lets you hold a weapon designed for a creature one size larger as though it were sized for you with a -2 on attack. The benefit really comes when you use d8 or d10 weapons, which jump to 2d6 or 2d8, respectively.
malisteen
03-24-07, 07:41 PM It's like this:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Pounce
Two Weapon Rend

Power Attack
Leap Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Cometary Collision

Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Melee Weapon Mastery
Improved Weapon Focus
Improved Weapon Specialization
Melee Weapon Mastery

Ready Action to Charge, using Cometary Colision.
Charge with Cometary Collision (+4 Damage!)
Jump during charge with Leap Attack
Attack with both Weapons on Charge with TWPounce
(both weapons are one handed thanks to OverTWF)
Sink full BAB into Power Attack
Apply the penalty to hit from PA to your AC with Shock Trooper
Double your PA damage bonus with Leap Attack

Now the hurt:

We'll assume you hit with both attacks (they're nearly at your full BAB, they should hit.

You get the following damage:

BAB x4 from PA (x2 for each hit)
Str x3.5 (x1 for each hit, x1.5 on the rend)
+12 (+4 specialization, +2 mastery on both hits)
+8 (+4 Cometary Collision on each attack)
+2x weapon damage (both with multiple +d6 abilities?)
Rend Damage

The total damage isn't too shabby. At 24 Str (actually quite modest at level 20) and BAB+20, that's what? 116 damage, before counting weapon or rend damage rolls or criticals? Not too shabby. It's no 20th level paladin nova charge, it's no spellcaster, it's hardly optimized, but it ain't terrible.

Make sure those weapons are bludgeoning, for that feat in PHBII that will force a DC 50 save vs. nauseated for a round. If they run away charge them again, if they stay hit them with six attacks, at BAB 18/18/13/13/8/8, (counting supremacy on the last attack). Bludgeoning weapons also get you that other feat in PHBII that gives you +1 to hit for each hit you've already made with a bludgeoning weapon that turn. Lets you sink a bit more of that full attack into power attack without fretting. Of course, that's your dwarf's last two feats. . . .

Actually, now that I think about it, this is still pretty lousy. It's a shame how bad TWFing is for anyone other then rogues.

As for Monkey Grip: It's a Trap! it trades a feat for +1 damage, at the cost of -2 to hit. That's terrible. Don't take it. If you find it in item form, on the other hand (chack out Magic Item Compendium, plus you can have it be your strength item, too, see page 234), that's another matter. No hit penalty (iirc), no feat loss, just a few thousand gold for +1 damage. That's a more equitable trade.
GreyStar
03-26-07, 10:32 PM Could Raptor School's Jump Check for damage be combined with the jump for Leap Attack or would it be two different jump checks? The Falcon's Feathers wouldn't be of much use for this build, but if you've got the chance to observe your foe before he charges, you could definitely rack up some more damage. +2/+4 for the Jump check and +2/+6 for the observation.

The Monkey Grip thing was kind of a character flavor addition, and combined with sizing weapon I can make a judgement call if I feel like earning the +1 on a low AC target.

And here's a bit of a newbie question, but could it be possible to bull rush and attack in combination with the charge? Definitely with a pierce weapon and that feat from PHII, but if I wanted to otherwise.

As for the StrongArm Bracers, I can't find them in my DMG or my Complete books.
malisteen
03-26-07, 10:38 PM I thought there was a feat that let you do an automatic bull rush attempt when you dealt enough damage, but for the life of me I can't figure out where it is.
GreyStar
03-26-07, 10:42 PM That would be awesome, just because I was also interested in the Dungeon Crasher variant in Dungeonscape. You sacrifice two bonus feats (2nd and 6th level) for some extra abilities: the most pertinent to this build being a 2d6 damage if you bullrush an opponent into a wall, which improves to 4d6 at 6th level. If I use the piercing attack, which requires that I stay put during the bullrush, I can knock him into a wall AND set up another charge. I could also look at the clouting weapon attribute in Complete Arcane, but I can't remember if that's an actual bullrush.
tarkin
03-27-07, 11:00 AM 1. You can definitely do a Two Weapon Pounce in a Cometary Collision.

2. You can add in Two Weapon Rend as well.

3. Damage from Powerfull Charge would work as well, but only apply once.

4. Leap Attack will depend a lot on your DM.

A Strict DM may simply dissallow Leap Attack from combining with other stuff here.

A Loose DM should rule that only the first attack you make counts as charging (not the 2nd etc.), and when they say triples the damage they mean -1 for Power Attack, +3 to hit (not -1 +6)

A Power DM might let it either apply to all the attacks or do x4 (x3x2=x4, using d20 multiplication rules)

An Anything Goes DM might let it apply to all attacks and do x6 (x3x2 = x6)

5. Shock Trooper works well, you take the penalty to your AC instead of your attacks. Note, your AC is pretty low, you are charging and only wearing light armor. Hope you kill the badguy and that none of his allies are nearby.
GreyStar
03-29-07, 04:13 PM I went back and looked:

-the Driving Attack feat for piercing weapons requires a full attack action, so it isn't applicable here.

-Dungeon Crasher does not add 2d6/4d6 damage on collision with a wall, it's 4d6+twice Str mod at 2nd level and 8d6+thrice Str mod at 6th.

-found a magic weapon property that will help: Brutal Surge. Allows a bullrush on a successful hit. It has charges per day, but that can be combated by switching your weapons from hand to hand. I assume you'd want to use the power in the offhand since bullrushing with the primary leaves you without your second attack.
I_Poke_The_Darkness
03-30-07, 10:33 AM So how would jump attacks work for a Thri-Kreen? You would have 4 weapons +bite. Also if anyone knows, I have a +50 to my jump checks so if I do a high jump do I take fall damage?
malisteen
03-30-07, 04:26 PM Knockback, Races of Stone. Free bull rush with power attack. Great with Shock trooper (complete warrior).

How Leap Attack interacts with the rest:

Both of your attacks on a two weapon pounce are made as part of a charge, both get the bonus from leap attack. If you're fighting with a one handed weapon and a light weapon (or a double weapon used as two weapons) that gets you 2x return on your primary attack, and no extra damage on your off hand attack (although you still take the penalty to hit). If you instead are fighting with two one handed weapons using the oversized two weapon fighting feat (complete adventurer) then you get double power attack damage on each successful hit. If you are using a two handed weapon then you aren't two weapon pouncing, that's just a regular leap attack charge and you get +2 to hit and 3x power attack damage (instead of the normal two)

So, if you hit with both attacks on a dual weapon leaping pounce, you'll get a 4:1 return on your power attack. Remember, though, that you have to hit two times (both with PA penalty if you aren't using shock trooper).

Also remember that this requires lots of feats:

Power Attack
Leap Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Pounce.

Seven feats to get a 4:1 return on PA, only on the charge, and only if you hit twice. You more then pay for the benefits.

As for combining this with knockback and dungeoncrasher, I'm not sure if knockback is optional (ie, I'm not sure if you can choose not to use it). If not, then it's no good, as you'll send the enemy sailing away before you get your second hit. If it is, then you get your first hit, then send them sailing away with your second hit, potentially at an angle into a wall for a lot more damage (via dungeon crasher) or into another enemy to trip them both (via shock trooper). It's a nice addition to the combo, but requires the equivalent of three more feats, bringint the total up to 10 feats, more then half of the feats available to a straight fighter, and you haven't even spent the requisite feats improving your saving throws yet, let alone grabbing any of the remaining decent two weapon feats, or the weapon focus tree. Ideally, you'd want:

[dungeon crasher 1]
[dungeon crasher 2]
Power Attack
Leap Attack
Improved Bull rush
shock trooper
cometary collision
knockback
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Pounce
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Rend
Endurance
Steadfast Determination
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Melee Weapon Mastery

That's all of the feats for a straight human fighter 20, and you're still three feats shy of weapon supremacy. I'd love to fit that in, and improved critical, and the two good bludgeoning feats from PHBII, and improved initiative, and something for reflex saves, but I don't see room to drop anything.

When not even a fighter has enough feats for a build, the build is too feat intensive to actually be good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreyStar 03-23-07, 11:28 AM	Could a fighter with Cometary Collision and Two-Weapon Pounce use the benefits Two-Weapon Pounce in place of the benefits of Cometary Collision? The way I figure it, Collision lets you ready a charge action, then replaces the normal benefits. Once you are charging you could choose replace your Collision Benefits with the attack with weapons. Does that seem legal?
Southernskies 03-24-07, 04:34 AM	Yes. Both of the feats flow into each other through the rules and you can take it a step further. Readied action to charge foe -> Cometary Collision -> Two Weapon Pounce -> Two Weapon Rend None of those feats stop you using the next option in the chain; just make sure you apply each in the sequence to get the attack bonuses and damage bonuses to the right value. For the full chain above, you would get +0/+0 with +4 on damage rolls (and a -2 AC penalty for the charge), if both attacks hit, you deal an extra 1d6 + 4 + 1-1/2 times Strength for the rend. Really nasty, but with the BAB and feat requirements, you would expect some sort of return to do it.
GreyStar 03-24-07, 10:59 AM	I was going to take it a touch further with Powerful Charge and Monkey Grip later on.
Batshido 03-24-07, 12:39 PM	I was going to take it a touch further with Powerful Charge and Monkey Grip later on. And by "Monkey Grip" you mean Leap Attack, right?
Neodymium 03-24-07, 01:10 PM	And by "Monkey Grip" you mean Leap Attack, right? and a pair of StrongArm Bracers.
GreyStar 03-24-07, 07:10 PM	No, not Leap Attack, though that's also a good idea. Monkey Grip lets you hold a weapon designed for a creature one size larger as though it were sized for you with a -2 on attack. The benefit really comes when you use d8 or d10 weapons, which jump to 2d6 or 2d8, respectively.
malisteen 03-24-07, 07:41 PM	It's like this: Two Weapon Fighting Improved Two Weapon Fighting Oversized Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Pounce Two Weapon Rend Power Attack Leap Attack Improved Bull Rush Shock Trooper Cometary Collision Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization Melee Weapon Mastery Improved Weapon Focus Improved Weapon Specialization Melee Weapon Mastery Ready Action to Charge, using Cometary Colision. Charge with Cometary Collision (+4 Damage!) Jump during charge with Leap Attack Attack with both Weapons on Charge with TWPounce (both weapons are one handed thanks to OverTWF) Sink full BAB into Power Attack Apply the penalty to hit from PA to your AC with Shock Trooper Double your PA damage bonus with Leap Attack Now the hurt: We'll assume you hit with both attacks (they're nearly at your full BAB, they should hit. You get the following damage: BAB x4 from PA (x2 for each hit) Str x3.5 (x1 for each hit, x1.5 on the rend) +12 (+4 specialization, +2 mastery on both hits) +8 (+4 Cometary Collision on each attack) +2x weapon damage (both with multiple +d6 abilities?) Rend Damage The total damage isn't too shabby. At 24 Str (actually quite modest at level 20) and BAB+20, that's what? 116 damage, before counting weapon or rend damage rolls or criticals? Not too shabby. It's no 20th level paladin nova charge, it's no spellcaster, it's hardly optimized, but it ain't terrible. Make sure those weapons are bludgeoning, for that feat in PHBII that will force a DC 50 save vs. nauseated for a round. If they run away charge them again, if they stay hit them with six attacks, at BAB 18/18/13/13/8/8, (counting supremacy on the last attack). Bludgeoning weapons also get you that other feat in PHBII that gives you +1 to hit for each hit you've already made with a bludgeoning weapon that turn. Lets you sink a bit more of that full attack into power attack without fretting. Of course, that's your dwarf's last two feats. . . . Actually, now that I think about it, this is still pretty lousy. It's a shame how bad TWFing is for anyone other then rogues. As for Monkey Grip: It's a Trap! it trades a feat for +1 damage, at the cost of -2 to hit. That's terrible. Don't take it. If you find it in item form, on the other hand (chack out Magic Item Compendium, plus you can have it be your strength item, too, see page 234), that's another matter. No hit penalty (iirc), no feat loss, just a few thousand gold for +1 damage. That's a more equitable trade.
GreyStar 03-26-07, 10:32 PM	Could Raptor School's Jump Check for damage be combined with the jump for Leap Attack or would it be two different jump checks? The Falcon's Feathers wouldn't be of much use for this build, but if you've got the chance to observe your foe before he charges, you could definitely rack up some more damage. +2/+4 for the Jump check and +2/+6 for the observation. The Monkey Grip thing was kind of a character flavor addition, and combined with sizing weapon I can make a judgement call if I feel like earning the +1 on a low AC target. And here's a bit of a newbie question, but could it be possible to bull rush and attack in combination with the charge? Definitely with a pierce weapon and that feat from PHII, but if I wanted to otherwise. As for the StrongArm Bracers, I can't find them in my DMG or my Complete books.
malisteen 03-26-07, 10:38 PM	I thought there was a feat that let you do an automatic bull rush attempt when you dealt enough damage, but for the life of me I can't figure out where it is.
GreyStar 03-26-07, 10:42 PM	That would be awesome, just because I was also interested in the Dungeon Crasher variant in Dungeonscape. You sacrifice two bonus feats (2nd and 6th level) for some extra abilities: the most pertinent to this build being a 2d6 damage if you bullrush an opponent into a wall, which improves to 4d6 at 6th level. If I use the piercing attack, which requires that I stay put during the bullrush, I can knock him into a wall AND set up another charge. I could also look at the clouting weapon attribute in Complete Arcane, but I can't remember if that's an actual bullrush.
tarkin 03-27-07, 11:00 AM	1. You can definitely do a Two Weapon Pounce in a Cometary Collision. 2. You can add in Two Weapon Rend as well. 3. Damage from Powerfull Charge would work as well, but only apply once. 4. Leap Attack will depend a lot on your DM. A Strict DM may simply dissallow Leap Attack from combining with other stuff here. A Loose DM should rule that only the first attack you make counts as charging (not the 2nd etc.), and when they say triples the damage they mean -1 for Power Attack, +3 to hit (not -1 +6) A Power DM might let it either apply to all the attacks or do x4 (x3x2=x4, using d20 multiplication rules) An Anything Goes DM might let it apply to all attacks and do x6 (x3x2 = x6) 5. Shock Trooper works well, you take the penalty to your AC instead of your attacks. Note, your AC is pretty low, you are charging and only wearing light armor. Hope you kill the badguy and that none of his allies are nearby.
GreyStar 03-29-07, 04:13 PM	I went back and looked: -the Driving Attack feat for piercing weapons requires a full attack action, so it isn't applicable here. -Dungeon Crasher does not add 2d6/4d6 damage on collision with a wall, it's 4d6+twice Str mod at 2nd level and 8d6+thrice Str mod at 6th. -found a magic weapon property that will help: Brutal Surge. Allows a bullrush on a successful hit. It has charges per day, but that can be combated by switching your weapons from hand to hand. I assume you'd want to use the power in the offhand since bullrushing with the primary leaves you without your second attack.
I_Poke_The_Darkness 03-30-07, 10:33 AM	So how would jump attacks work for a Thri-Kreen? You would have 4 weapons +bite. Also if anyone knows, I have a +50 to my jump checks so if I do a high jump do I take fall damage?
malisteen 03-30-07, 04:26 PM	Knockback, Races of Stone. Free bull rush with power attack. Great with Shock trooper (complete warrior). How Leap Attack interacts with the rest: Both of your attacks on a two weapon pounce are made as part of a charge, both get the bonus from leap attack. If you're fighting with a one handed weapon and a light weapon (or a double weapon used as two weapons) that gets you 2x return on your primary attack, and no extra damage on your off hand attack (although you still take the penalty to hit). If you instead are fighting with two one handed weapons using the oversized two weapon fighting feat (complete adventurer) then you get double power attack damage on each successful hit. If you are using a two handed weapon then you aren't two weapon pouncing, that's just a regular leap attack charge and you get +2 to hit and 3x power attack damage (instead of the normal two) So, if you hit with both attacks on a dual weapon leaping pounce, you'll get a 4:1 return on your power attack. Remember, though, that you have to hit two times (both with PA penalty if you aren't using shock trooper). Also remember that this requires lots of feats: Power Attack Leap Attack Improved Bull Rush Shock Trooper Two Weapon Fighting Oversized Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Pounce. Seven feats to get a 4:1 return on PA, only on the charge, and only if you hit twice. You more then pay for the benefits. As for combining this with knockback and dungeoncrasher, I'm not sure if knockback is optional (ie, I'm not sure if you can choose not to use it). If not, then it's no good, as you'll send the enemy sailing away before you get your second hit. If it is, then you get your first hit, then send them sailing away with your second hit, potentially at an angle into a wall for a lot more damage (via dungeon crasher) or into another enemy to trip them both (via shock trooper). It's a nice addition to the combo, but requires the equivalent of three more feats, bringint the total up to 10 feats, more then half of the feats available to a straight fighter, and you haven't even spent the requisite feats improving your saving throws yet, let alone grabbing any of the remaining decent two weapon feats, or the weapon focus tree. Ideally, you'd want: [dungeon crasher 1] [dungeon crasher 2] Power Attack Leap Attack Improved Bull rush shock trooper cometary collision knockback Two Weapon Fighting Oversized Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Pounce Improved Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Rend Endurance Steadfast Determination Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization Melee Weapon Mastery That's all of the feats for a straight human fighter 20, and you're still three feats shy of weapon supremacy. I'd love to fit that in, and improved critical, and the two good bludgeoning feats from PHBII, and improved initiative, and something for reflex saves, but I don't see room to drop anything. When not even a fighter has enough feats for a build, the build is too feat intensive to actually be good.