Complete Champions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Complete Champions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LarsWyrdson
08-10-07, 04:51 PM I am trying to decide if I need to buy this supplement, and have never seen a copy. Can someone give me a brief explanation of Domain Devotion and how it works?
Chimaera2000
08-11-07, 12:03 AM A devotion feat typically enables you to use a spell-like ability once per day that's thematically appropriate to the domain. You can gain extra uses of this spell-like ability per day by permanently spending turning attempts. The feats have no prerequisites and are often quite strong; for instance, Law Devotion allows you to add +7 to your attack rolls or AC by 15th level. Clerics can sacrifice access to domains to gain the appropriate domain feat as well.
Kouk
08-11-07, 12:58 AM I wasn't terribly impressed by the Devotion feats personally. Most of them seem a bit weak or situational, though the book is so new I haven't actually seen any of them in a game yet.

Some of the class variants are nice though, several people I know have commented they like the idea of the more fighter-like Paladin variant (lose Paladin spells, and gain several bonus feats from a preset list).

One of the Reserve Feats also deserves mention, there is I think "Touch of Healing" which pretty much allows you to heal a couple of HP at a time to anyone as long as you have a Conjuration(Healing) spell prepared. You can heal an unlimited amount up to half of the target's total HP, but the amount is too small at a time to be useful in combat for anything other than stabilization. This in itself would be somewhat overpowered, but if you don't like downtime in your games it may be acceptable.

Several of the Prestige Classes look nice (maybe too nice, though they are tied to organizations oftentimes), but a lot of the book is about the church organizations of the core deities and I don't think many people really care that much about them (as Greyhawk is no longer the most popular campaign setting). Then again, all the other religions from the other settings were pretty much covered already in various books.

It's a neat book, but I don't think it is a "must buy". It is about at the level of the Complete Mage or Complete Scoundrel in my opinion.
deanruel
08-11-07, 01:06 AM Honestly the book is average. I like some of the Domain feats, but definitely not all of them. Some, like Air, Law, or Trickery devotion are just awesome but others are pretty situational. The book honestly could have been titled "The Complete Paladin and some other stuff" so if you like Paladin's then MAN is this the book for you. If, like me, you only sorta care about Paladins the book becomes a moderate resource but nothing exemplary. In the end my advice would hinge around how much you use Paladins and Cleric builds. If your answer is "A lot" then buy it, if not then you could pass on it.
Aleolus
08-11-07, 03:16 AM A devotion feat typically enables you to use a spell-like ability once per day that's thematically appropriate to the domain. You can gain extra uses of this spell-like ability per day by permanently spending turning attempts. The feats have no prerequisites and are often quite strong; for instance, Law Devotion allows you to add +7 to your attack rolls or AC by 15th level. Clerics can sacrifice access to domains to gain the appropriate domain feat as well.

Except for the Knowledge Devotion feat, which you can use once per battle for every creature type in combat, as long as you have at least one rank in the appropriate knowledge skill.
juz4kix
08-11-07, 07:43 AM Except for the Knowledge Devotion feat, which you can use once per battle for every creature type in combat, as long as you have at least one rank in the appropriate knowledge skill.

I thought this feat was awesome until I realized the bonus was personal. My character, unfortunately, doesn't spend too much time in combat.:rolleyes:
Kouk
08-11-07, 11:10 AM I thought this feat was awesome until I realized the bonus was personal. My character, unfortunately, doesn't spend too much time in combat.:rolleyes:

"Combat" doesn't mean you are required to spend your time in a Threatened square. If you are told to roll Initiative, you are pretty much in combat.
unusualsuspect
08-12-07, 11:00 AM I think he means that to use those bonuses IIRC, he'd have to wade into melee, and his character isn't inclined towards such things.
Kouk
08-12-07, 06:35 PM I think he means that to use those bonuses IIRC, he'd have to wade into melee, and his character isn't inclined towards such things.

Knowledge Devotion mentions nothing at all about melee. It says, and I quote, "Whenever you fight a creature..." You can get an insight bonus on attack and damage rolls for the remainder of the encounter.

If all you do is heal and buff your friends, then there is limited use for the bonus on rolls. The other benefits, knowing what you are fighting, and always treating a single Knowledge skill as a class skill regardless of what classes you level, would be useful no matter what your role.

If you cast any spells or make any attacks that require an attack roll or damage roll, those benefits of the feat will apply if you succeed on identifying the creature.
Staple
08-12-07, 08:11 PM Complete Champion has some stuff in it that is nothing short of ridiculous. For example, the Barbarian alternate class features that give up Fast Movement in order to gain Pounce or Improved Grab.

However, there's some other stuff in it that's nearly useless. The descriptions of the core deities churches etc. takes up a lot of space and has to be moderately important to your campaign to even come up. Domain Devotion feats are hit or miss, with some of them being very powerful while others aren't going to come up in 50% of games. The Prestige classes are good--I especially like Paragnostic Apostle (essentially a casting class that lets you get better at whatever you do).

In general, if you favor Clerics, Paladins, and fighter types (Fighter/Barbarian, etc.), Complete Champion is a book for you. If you favor anything else, like Rogues, Bards, or Wizards, there's not a whole lot in it for you.
LarsWyrdson
08-13-07, 10:29 AM Thanks for all the great feedback! I am pretty fond of holy warriors, so the book sounds like it might have possibilities. All the background info on churches would be wasted on me, though, as I never play Core.

I am still a little confused about Domain feats. They sound intriguing, but are they only for clerics? Some responses said no prereqs, and other seem to indicate that you needed to spend turning attempts or sacrifice domain access.

Some new PrCs and variant classes could also be handy. I know many people swear by the Barbarian pounce variant, since that gives such a power boost in combat... not that barbs really need it!
Puca
08-13-07, 10:49 AM I am still a little confused about Domain feats. They sound intriguing, but are they only for clerics? Some responses said no prereqs, and other seem to indicate that you needed to spend turning attempts or sacrifice domain access.Not just for clerics. Any class can take one. And only one if I recall corectly.

Clerics can get additional benefits from Domain feats over and above what other classes can though.
Aleolus
08-13-07, 02:37 PM Nope. No limit on how many you can have
Talon Stormwarden
08-13-07, 08:27 PM Nope. No limit on how many you can have

You can only gain 2 domain devotion feats through actual use of feat slots. A cleric can give up access to one domain to instead gain the domain devotion, meaning clerics can have 3.

Here's a twist though. You can take the same domain feat multiple times for additional uses per day. Clerics can, as someone else mentioned, permanently sacrifice turn attempts to gain additional uses per day. Some, such as healing devotion, only cost 1 turn attempt per use. So, as a cleric, do you take the feat a 2nd time for a 2nd use per day or take Extra Turning to sac them for 4 more uses per day? ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LarsWyrdson 08-10-07, 04:51 PM	I am trying to decide if I need to buy this supplement, and have never seen a copy. Can someone give me a brief explanation of Domain Devotion and how it works?
Chimaera2000 08-11-07, 12:03 AM	A devotion feat typically enables you to use a spell-like ability once per day that's thematically appropriate to the domain. You can gain extra uses of this spell-like ability per day by permanently spending turning attempts. The feats have no prerequisites and are often quite strong; for instance, Law Devotion allows you to add +7 to your attack rolls or AC by 15th level. Clerics can sacrifice access to domains to gain the appropriate domain feat as well.
Kouk 08-11-07, 12:58 AM	I wasn't terribly impressed by the Devotion feats personally. Most of them seem a bit weak or situational, though the book is so new I haven't actually seen any of them in a game yet. Some of the class variants are nice though, several people I know have commented they like the idea of the more fighter-like Paladin variant (lose Paladin spells, and gain several bonus feats from a preset list). One of the Reserve Feats also deserves mention, there is I think "Touch of Healing" which pretty much allows you to heal a couple of HP at a time to anyone as long as you have a Conjuration(Healing) spell prepared. You can heal an unlimited amount up to half of the target's total HP, but the amount is too small at a time to be useful in combat for anything other than stabilization. This in itself would be somewhat overpowered, but if you don't like downtime in your games it may be acceptable. Several of the Prestige Classes look nice (maybe too nice, though they are tied to organizations oftentimes), but a lot of the book is about the church organizations of the core deities and I don't think many people really care that much about them (as Greyhawk is no longer the most popular campaign setting). Then again, all the other religions from the other settings were pretty much covered already in various books. It's a neat book, but I don't think it is a "must buy". It is about at the level of the Complete Mage or Complete Scoundrel in my opinion.
deanruel 08-11-07, 01:06 AM	Honestly the book is average. I like some of the Domain feats, but definitely not all of them. Some, like Air, Law, or Trickery devotion are just awesome but others are pretty situational. The book honestly could have been titled "The Complete Paladin and some other stuff" so if you like Paladin's then MAN is this the book for you. If, like me, you only sorta care about Paladins the book becomes a moderate resource but nothing exemplary. In the end my advice would hinge around how much you use Paladins and Cleric builds. If your answer is "A lot" then buy it, if not then you could pass on it.
Aleolus 08-11-07, 03:16 AM	A devotion feat typically enables you to use a spell-like ability once per day that's thematically appropriate to the domain. You can gain extra uses of this spell-like ability per day by permanently spending turning attempts. The feats have no prerequisites and are often quite strong; for instance, Law Devotion allows you to add +7 to your attack rolls or AC by 15th level. Clerics can sacrifice access to domains to gain the appropriate domain feat as well. Except for the Knowledge Devotion feat, which you can use once per battle for every creature type in combat, as long as you have at least one rank in the appropriate knowledge skill.
juz4kix 08-11-07, 07:43 AM	Except for the Knowledge Devotion feat, which you can use once per battle for every creature type in combat, as long as you have at least one rank in the appropriate knowledge skill. I thought this feat was awesome until I realized the bonus was personal. My character, unfortunately, doesn't spend too much time in combat.:rolleyes:
Kouk 08-11-07, 11:10 AM	I thought this feat was awesome until I realized the bonus was personal. My character, unfortunately, doesn't spend too much time in combat.:rolleyes: "Combat" doesn't mean you are required to spend your time in a Threatened square. If you are told to roll Initiative, you are pretty much in combat.
unusualsuspect 08-12-07, 11:00 AM	I think he means that to use those bonuses IIRC, he'd have to wade into melee, and his character isn't inclined towards such things.
Kouk 08-12-07, 06:35 PM	I think he means that to use those bonuses IIRC, he'd have to wade into melee, and his character isn't inclined towards such things. Knowledge Devotion mentions nothing at all about melee. It says, and I quote, "Whenever you fight a creature..." You can get an insight bonus on attack and damage rolls for the remainder of the encounter. If all you do is heal and buff your friends, then there is limited use for the bonus on rolls. The other benefits, knowing what you are fighting, and always treating a single Knowledge skill as a class skill regardless of what classes you level, would be useful no matter what your role. If you cast any spells or make any attacks that require an attack roll or damage roll, those benefits of the feat will apply if you succeed on identifying the creature.
Staple 08-12-07, 08:11 PM	Complete Champion has some stuff in it that is nothing short of ridiculous. For example, the Barbarian alternate class features that give up Fast Movement in order to gain Pounce or Improved Grab. However, there's some other stuff in it that's nearly useless. The descriptions of the core deities churches etc. takes up a lot of space and has to be moderately important to your campaign to even come up. Domain Devotion feats are hit or miss, with some of them being very powerful while others aren't going to come up in 50% of games. The Prestige classes are good--I especially like Paragnostic Apostle (essentially a casting class that lets you get better at whatever you do). In general, if you favor Clerics, Paladins, and fighter types (Fighter/Barbarian, etc.), Complete Champion is a book for you. If you favor anything else, like Rogues, Bards, or Wizards, there's not a whole lot in it for you.
LarsWyrdson 08-13-07, 10:29 AM	Thanks for all the great feedback! I am pretty fond of holy warriors, so the book sounds like it might have possibilities. All the background info on churches would be wasted on me, though, as I never play Core. I am still a little confused about Domain feats. They sound intriguing, but are they only for clerics? Some responses said no prereqs, and other seem to indicate that you needed to spend turning attempts or sacrifice domain access. Some new PrCs and variant classes could also be handy. I know many people swear by the Barbarian pounce variant, since that gives such a power boost in combat... not that barbs really need it!
Puca 08-13-07, 10:49 AM	I am still a little confused about Domain feats. They sound intriguing, but are they only for clerics? Some responses said no prereqs, and other seem to indicate that you needed to spend turning attempts or sacrifice domain access.Not just for clerics. Any class can take one. And only one if I recall corectly. Clerics can get additional benefits from Domain feats over and above what other classes can though.
Aleolus 08-13-07, 02:37 PM	Nope. No limit on how many you can have
Talon Stormwarden 08-13-07, 08:27 PM	Nope. No limit on how many you can have You can only gain 2 domain devotion feats through actual use of feat slots. A cleric can give up access to one domain to instead gain the domain devotion, meaning clerics can have 3. Here's a twist though. You can take the same domain feat multiple times for additional uses per day. Clerics can, as someone else mentioned, permanently sacrifice turn attempts to gain additional uses per day. Some, such as healing devotion, only cost 1 turn attempt per use. So, as a cleric, do you take the feat a 2nd time for a 2nd use per day or take Extra Turning to sac them for 4 more uses per day? ;)