Post/Author/DateTime	Post
artentreri 03-19-08, 02:36 PM	I have a concentration question. My player is in discussion with me saying that to disrupt his mage while spell casting (and make him roll concentration), even if I won initiative I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks in the order that initiative was thrown and then attack him. So, according to him if I win initiative against all of the party and he is last in all initiatives, I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks (thus letting the other players before me in the attack order) and then he has to throw a concentration check against my attacks dmg. To me if I win initiative and I attack him he has to roll the concentration check and I dont have to wait until that exact moment. What is the correct answer to the question?
Mad_Jack 03-19-08, 03:07 PM	If he's taken any damage at all in the round he tries to cast the spell, then he needs to roll concentration - if you go first in the round and he's last, he still needs to make the roll.
SiuiS 03-19-08, 03:41 PM	Actually, the player is right. Only damage taking while casting the spell counts for disrupting concentration. From the SRD: Injury If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action). If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + ˝ the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you. The first paragraph covers it nicely, and the second relates to ongoing damage such as form being on fire, or hit with an acid arrow. So, if you go first in the round, and hit the caster, he doesn't need to make a concentration check for a spell he casts later in that round, since the damage is no longer affecting him.
Vharuck 03-19-08, 04:12 PM	SiuiS is correct. As an analogy, think of boxing. The boxer who's quickest and lightest on his feet, boxer A, can get in the first shot. After a quick recovery from that first shot, the other boxer, boxer B, can take his shot. This is like you attacking first, and then the wizard casts his spell. Now, say boxer A not only wants to hit boxer B, but also to prevent boxer B from hitting him. Boxer A decides to counter boxer B's next shot and waits, reading his opponent for the signs. When boxer B starts to throw his punch, boxer A sees his chance and quickly jabs. Since boxer A had been ready to punch the whole time, and boxer B had only started his shot, A easily hits first. Boxer B's punch is ruined as A's glove drills into his nose. This is like you readying an action and attacking the wizard as he's in the middle of casting his spell. My analogies are iffy, so I'm happy to explain if it was good and sorry to confuse if it was bad. :)
artentreri 03-19-08, 04:49 PM	[QUOTE=SiuiS;15380256]Actually, the player is right. Only damage taking while casting the spell counts for disrupting concentration. From the SRD: Injury If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action). If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + ˝ the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you. QUOTE] The arguments you put are pretty good but, I see it this way. when the round begins each person states what they will do, and that is his character intent. as the round begins even if he is slower at it he starts casting his spell, but the other guy being faster hits him, that makes him have to roll the concentration. They both begin at the same time doing what each sets out to do, but one is faster than the other, thus, disrupting him with his hit. that is the way I see it, and it does go with the explanation from SiuiS what do you think ?
kalstrand 03-19-08, 07:07 PM	The only way to force the Concentration check is to hold your attack until the caster starts casting or to get an Attack of Opportunity against him while he is casting.
steventirey1985 03-19-08, 08:36 PM	The arguments you put are pretty good but, I see it this way. when the round begins each person states what they will do, and that is his character intent. as the round begins even if he is slower at it he starts casting his spell, but the other guy being faster hits him, that makes him have to roll the concentration. They both begin at the same time doing what each sets out to do, but one is faster than the other, thus, disrupting him with his hit. that is the way I see it, and it does go with the explanation from SiuiS what do you think ? The way you see it and the way the rules see it are different. You don't declare your actions for the turn and then everyone acts at the same time. It's supposed to simulate real-time action, but it's actually a turn-based game. Person A goes and does all their actions, then person B goes and does all their actions, then player C, etc. So say Player A is the fighter, and Player B is the mage. Player B dosn't even start casting his spell until all of Player A's actions are done. The only way for the fighter to disrupt the spell is to take a ready action. The ready action being "I attack the wizard if he starts to cast a spell".
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-08, 08:43 PM	> when the round begins each person states what they will do, and that is his > character intent. as the round begins even if he is slower at it he starts > casting his spell, This was how it worked in 1E and 2E. 3E doesn't handle rounds or initiative that way. Initiative is set at the beginning of the combat (you don't reroll it every round), and turns are simply taken in that order, going back to the beginning of the order once the end is reached. Each individual's turn is entirely self-contained, and the beginning and end of a round (a round being one pass through the initiative order) is essentially transparent. You don't "begin your action at the start of the round and finish it on your turn" a la old-E, you begin and finish your action on your turn.* Likewise, the decision as to what you want to do on your turn is made on that turn and when each decision in question becomes relevant. If you decide to move, you can choose each step of your movement on the fly - you're not required to pre-declare a movement path and then stick to it regardless of what happens. * There are a few, very specific actions which expressly do take time between turns, but these are the exception rather than the rule.
angelus_truelove 03-19-08, 11:12 PM	To be truthful, you could make your first attack on him, then, when he tries to cast the spell, (as long as you haven't already made an AoO or all of them if you have Combat Reflexes) you can get an AoO on him and deal more damage, possibly disrupting the spell. This is only for spells that provoke an AoO in the first place. Also, he could simply make a DC15 concentration check to be able to cast the spell defensively and not provoke an AoO in the first place. This is when you'd have to have a readied action to make the attack.
Cartigan 03-19-08, 11:29 PM	The arguments you put are pretty good but, I see it this way. when the round begins each person states what they will do, and that is his character intent. That's not how 3.5 works...
Jvance420 03-21-08, 06:57 AM	This seems incredibly silly to me. You have to ready an action to disrupt the spellcaster once he casts, but he can still complete the spell if he makes a DC 15 Concentration check. Of course, any spell caster would have ranks in this, and probably be tapping the 15 to begin with, so I'm left asking ....whats the point? Hoping the spellcaster would roll a natural 1? Is there no way to prevent the spell from happening other than dropping the spell caster, or simple bad luck (rolling a 1)? Something is yelling at me that the Con check is DC 15 + damage done, but I don't know where that came from :p
Merestil Haye 03-21-08, 07:35 AM	The arguments you put are pretty good but, I see it this way. when the round begins each person states what they will do, and that is his character intent.Stop right there. The decision on what the character will do is made when it gets to the character's turn, and not one minute before. Declaration of intent at the start of the round is no part of the D&D rules and has not been for eight years. (A)s the round begins even if he is slower at it he starts casting his spell, but the other guy being faster hits him, that makes him have to roll the concentration. They both begin at the same time doing what each sets out to do, but one is faster than the other, thus, disrupting him with his hit. that is the way I see it, and it does go with the explanation from SiuiS what do you think ?That is not the case. Damage disrupts the spell if, and only if, the damage is taken while the spell is being cast. For a spell which takes less than 1 round to cast, the spell is "being cast" only when the character is taking his action, and only damage taken after the character starts the action of spellcasting counts for disruption. From the SRD :Injury If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action). If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + ˝ the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you. Repeated damage does not count as continuous damage.The only possible sources of such damage are (a) Attacks of Opportunity, (b) actions readied for a spellcaster to start casting, and (c) continuous damage taken over rounds (which is handled specially). The regular attacks of another character in their turn do not count towards disrupting spellcasting. ETA : I see I should have read the rest of the thread. Ah well...
Merestil Haye 03-21-08, 07:43 AM	This seems incredibly silly to me. You have to ready an action to disrupt the spellcaster once he casts, but he can still complete the spell if he makes a DC 15 Concentration check. Of course, any spell caster would have ranks in this, and probably be tapping the 15 to begin with, so I'm left asking ....whats the point? Hoping the spellcaster would roll a natural 1?You should study the Conccentration rules a bit. No, he can't complete the spell by making a Concentration check with a static DC of moderate difficulty. A spellcaster injured in the casting of a spell has to make a Concentration check with a DC equal to 10 plus damage dealt plus level of spell being cast. Also, natural 1s do not automatically fail at skill checks, so if 1 is good enough to succeed the caster will always succeed.
1 ton ghost 03-22-08, 01:49 PM	to disrupt a mage's spell: 1)Readied Action, this is not the same as Delay. Delay gives you your full Action's worth of goodies, ie)1 Standard Action + 1 Move Actions + one 5ft step or 2 Move Actions + one 5ft step and they do not interrupt another's actions in the initiative phase EVER. you're just going after someone, hence, "delay". Delay is like giving chase after they pass you, Ready is like intercepting them right when they meet you. this is why you Ready, and it's gotta' be on a specific condition (they never wrote this out very clearly though). for busting a mage's spell though, it's clear enough. you say, "i ready to Disrupt if he casts a spell, (Sp), (Su), etc." this is assuming your initiative is higher than his. you're just waiting and watching this caster very carefully, biding your time. you're losing some action though. when you Ready you're only getting 1 Standard and 1 5ft step, so plan ahead. okay, so you've Readied, you initiative count drops to the mage's when your Readied Action is fulfilled ("he begins casting"). typically, he will get shot in ranged as a mage that know you're Readying agaisnt him will try and move out of melee range. and they got rid of Partial Charges (think of a half charge on 1 Standard Action) too. anyway, you attack. if you hit, he makes a Concentration check of 10 + Dmg delt + Spell Lvl i believe (check your PHB). if he fails, simple, spell fizzles. 2)Mage wishes to avoid Attack of Opportunity you are threatening the caster whether he knows or not (preferably not as he will probably take a 5ft step, Tumble, do something to get out of your threatened box. otherwise, he makes a Concentration check 15 + Spl Lvl. failure does mean you get an AoO on the mage, his spell simply fails.
SiuiS 06-20-08, 04:50 AM	That's pretty much how it goes. You can change the rules if you want, but a caster can only be interupted while casting- That's why it's called interupting ;)
Kursk 06-21-08, 11:11 AM	That's not how 3.5 works... Exactly. In 3.5 all characters & "monsters" act in the same 6 second round. If there are 10 combatants the round isn't 60 seconds long....
Dheran 06-28-08, 11:15 AM	I see it this way. when the round begins each person states what they will do, and that is his character intent. That's not the way D&D 3.5 works. There is no "statement of intent" in the rules. People get to decide what their character will do on their turn, not beforehand. This way they can adjust to what's happening around them. If you want to interrupt some other character's action, you need to use the D&D mechanism created for the purpose: a readied action.
DaveoftheRave 07-01-08, 11:10 AM	The caster can also make a 5ft step w/o provoking an AoO. Also, if the caster chooses not to cast a spell you will have wasted your readied action. Concentration is pretty easy to come by. Take a 1st level wizard. +1 Con +4 Ranks +4 Combat Casting +3 Skill Focus: Concentration +12...so you need to roll a 3 to make it. Or a 6 if you don't want to use 2 feats. The best way to interrupt casting is to grapple the wizard. This is something that you can certainly make a house rule around since it is pretty frustrating. And even 10+damage dealt is pretty easy to make.
Damned slayer 07-01-08, 03:05 PM	The caster can also make a 5ft step w/o provoking an AoO. Also, if the caster chooses not to cast a spell you will have wasted your readied action. Concentration is pretty easy to come by. Take a 1st level wizard. +1 Con +4 Ranks +4 Combat Casting +3 Skill Focus: Concentration +12...so you need to roll a 3 to make it. Or a 6 if you don't want to use 2 feats. The best way to interrupt casting is to grapple the wizard. This is something that you can certainly make a house rule around since it is pretty frustrating. And even 10+damage dealt is pretty easy to make. who is gonna waste 2 feats to get those? (except if they are pre-reqs for PrC) and (your math is wrong) DC is 15+spell level so you need 4+ (if you got the feats) 11+ if you wanna play a good caster with 12 const try at lvl 10 1+13 (+7? you got feat to waste) DC range between 16 and 20 So a mage could still lose his action by himself he still needs 6+ (25% of failure) to do something he got limited time/day while the fighter got 1 auto hit and a 2nd chance to hit... and we don't even talk about readied action Casters are easily enough disruptable if they stick in mele or if you ready
CrimsonDeath 07-01-08, 03:08 PM	who is gonna waste 2 feats to get those? (except if they are pre-reqs for PrC) Same people who put a 12 in Constitution.
Damned slayer 07-01-08, 03:13 PM	Same people who put a 12 in Constitution. hey I already putted a 6 in constitution lol was funny but don't know why I was pretty paranoiac :) anyway I kept the 12 cause he made his example with it but... some people roll bad... tho I'd got with a 14 often
Kursk 07-01-08, 03:28 PM	I have a concentration question. My player is in discussion with me saying that to disrupt his mage while spell casting (and make him roll concentration), even if I won initiative I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks in the order that initiative was thrown and then attack him. So, according to him if I win initiative against all of the party and he is last in all initiatives, I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks (thus letting the other players before me in the attack order) and then he has to throw a concentration check against my attacks dmg. To me if I win initiative and I attack him he has to roll the concentration check and I dont have to wait until that exact moment. What is the correct answer to the question? Combat is simultaneous in D&D. The rules make it SEEM linear in nature. If you cast a spell that takes a standard action it is about 3 seconds worth of casting. Init means you START 1st. It doesn't mean you act for 3 seconds while everyone else is frozen in place. (many inexperienced players think this is the case) If you cause damage to a spell caster while casting he has to roll concentration check.
DaveoftheRave 07-01-08, 03:28 PM	DC is 15+spell level so you need 4+ (if you got the feats) 11+ if you wanna play a good caster with 12 const You're right, 4+ or 7+ w/o the skill focus. try at lvl 10 1+13 (+7? you got feat to waste) DC range between 16 and 20 I really don't see combat casting as a wasted feat. The skill focus might be a bit much though. So a mage could still lose his action by himself he still needs 6+ (25% of failure) to do something he got limited time/day while the fighter got 1 auto hit and a 2nd chance to hit... auto hit? You've lost me. At any rate the best way to avoid an AoO is just to make a 5ft step. It requires a standard action to ready your action so you're only getting 1 attack, and then you have to hit and hope you do a lot of damage then hope he fails his save. I would still rather grapple the mage. Same people who put a 12 in Constitution. I'm not sure where you're going with this? Are you saying that it should be higher or lower? Ideally if I were playing a wizard Con would be my 2nd best stat and I would hope it would be a 14, I was using 12 just for the sake of argument. But up to 14 would make it back to the 3+ or 6+. And then you only gain a spell level every 2 levels so eventually the concentration will catch up. And you're right, skill focus concentration won't be seen often so it was probably not the best for the example. Take a 6th level wizard and you've made up for not having it in the example. Eventually you'll make the concentration check every time.
Damned slayer 07-01-08, 04:50 PM	You're right, 4+ or 7+ w/o the skill focus. I really don't see combat casting as a wasted feat. The skill focus might be a bit much though. auto hit? You've lost me. At any rate the best way to avoid an AoO is just to make a 5ft step. It requires a standard action to ready your action so you're only getting 1 attack, and then you have to hit and hope you do a lot of damage then hope he fails his save. I would still rather grapple the mage. I'm not sure where you're going with this? Are you saying that it should be higher or lower? Ideally if I were playing a wizard Con would be my 2nd best stat and I would hope it would be a 14, I was using 12 just for the sake of argument. But up to 14 would make it back to the 3+ or 6+. And then you only gain a spell level every 2 levels so eventually the concentration will catch up. And you're right, skill focus concentration won't be seen often so it was probably not the best for the example. for the auto hit part, you can consider that the 1st attack of fighters will always hit at a certain point otherwise the other attacks are a waste Take a 6th level wizard and you've made up for not having it in the example. Eventually you'll make the concentration check every time. that's the point why would an epic mage still has chance to miss his spell against a level 1? You don't make the barbarian roll a will save so he doesn't hit his ally when he's in rage, it's the main class feature and shouldn't have a big miss chance Combat casting is a waste of feat (except for pre-reqs) if your going full caster, if you wanna play a gish it's different and you can follow the mage with YOUR 5foot step on your readied action if you didn't moved yet
DaveoftheRave 07-01-08, 05:13 PM	for the auto hit part, you can consider that the 1st attack of fighters will always hit at a certain point otherwise the other attacks are a waste You still miss on a 1. And the example I was giving was with a level 1 mage. I'm sure we would have to assume a level 1 fighter. Even if we go higher level the fighter isn't going to hit a mage on anything but a 1 for a while. that's the point why would an epic mage still has chance to miss his spell against a level 1? You've completely lost me with this again. And when did we start talking about epic level characters? You don't make the barbarian roll a will save so he doesn't hit his ally when he's in rage, it's the main class feature and shouldn't have a big miss chance Rage doesn't have a miss chance, I'm really confused. and you can follow the mage with YOUR 5foot step on your readied action if you didn't moved yet The 5ft step is to avoid AoO not readied actions. A readied action is pretty limiting, in most cases I think I would prefer to initiate a grapple instead. I'm sure there are definitely cases where you would want to ready an action but if the mage doesn't cast a spell you've wasted your action. Lets look at a scenario: Fighter - readies action Mage - Withdraw...or even just a 5ft step and some other misc. action Fighter - runs up to mage and readies action Mage - 5ft step and casts spell
Legdiwena 07-01-08, 05:26 PM	You do realize the fighter can take a 5 ft step as part of his readied action, right?
CrimsonDeath 07-01-08, 05:59 PM	You do realize the fighter can take a 5 ft step as part of his readied action, right? As long as he didn't go anywhere in the same round.
navar100 07-02-08, 03:35 AM	who is gonna waste 2 feats to get those? (except if they are pre-reqs for PrC) and (your math is wrong) DC is 15+spell level so you need 4+ (if you got the feats) 11+ if you wanna play a good caster with 12 const re Skill Focus Concentration and Combat Casting :tiphat: If I'm playing a cleric. Clerics tend to be in threatened areas a lot, even if it's just to buff a party member. It's important enough to me to be able to cast defensively my highest level spell even on a roll of a 1. I want to cast that spell. Not having it cast because I failed the defensive casting roll means a wasted spell and a wasted turn. With Con 14, those two feats, and max ranks in Concentration, you get this ability starting at level 4. You don't absolutely need both feats to get this always works on a 1 threshhold, but with only one of them it occurs at a higher level, 9 I think. That's too long a wait. I'm in threatened areas for many a combat long before then. I wouldn't as a wizard because being in theatened areas is the alst place I want to be. I might take one of the feats depending on my mood and how often I'm finding myself in threatened areas despite my efforts, but it would be a level 6 feat. If a druid, maybe. It depends how often I want to cast spells while wildshaped and fighting toe to claw.
CrimsonDeath 07-02-08, 04:45 AM	The biggest reason to take Skill Focus: Concentration rather than Combat Casting (if you only want one) is because Skill Focus applies to all Concentration checks, including those to cast a verbal-only spell (like Dimension Door) in a grapple or to cast a spell despite being distracted or damaged. If you're going to spend two feats on getting a Cleric to cast defensively anyway, you may want to get Races of Stone. Shielded Casting (prereq Combat Casting, shield proficiency) lets you cast spells without provoking as long as you have a light, heavy, or tower shield ready. Alternatively, Steady Concentration (prereq Concentration 8 ranks) lets you take 10 on Concentration checks. With just that feat at level 6 (with the minimum required skill ranks and a mere 10 Constitution), you're guaranteed a Concentration check of 18 (enough to cast your best spells defensively) any time you want.
Merestil Haye 07-02-08, 03:53 PM	The biggest reason to take Skill Focus: Concentration rather than Combat Casting (if you only want one) is because Skill Focus applies to all Concentration checks, including those to cast a verbal-only spell (like Dimension Door) in a grapple or to cast a spell despite being distracted or damaged.[/QUOTE]Just a small nitpick; the bonus from Combat Casting applies when the caster is grappled or pinned. Something I missed for a long while. It still doesn't make it a good feat; just a less bad one.