Concentration on Wis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concentration on Wis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
B4cchus
07-18-07, 02:05 AM hi Folks,

I was discussing the concentration skill with one of my players and we concluded that concentration might be better off based on WIS instead of CON.
The thought behind this is that, for starters, we believe that concentratingn is a mental action.
The main part of concentrating is not allowing yourself to get distracted which sounds like a act of willpower(=wis) rather than a physical action(con).

Are there any people who already treid this? Any thoughts on this?

Regards,
B4cchus.
Someone
07-18-07, 02:18 AM Its a balance issue. If it were based on a mental stat, then one of the standard spellcasters- wizard/cleric/sorcerer or bard would have an innate advantage over the others. By basing it on a neutral attribute, none of the classes are getting it for free.

As for a rationalization, one could argue that a character's Con score represents pain threshold, and something that would be a mere discomfort to a high-Con character would be excruciating, yell-out-loud, flinch-in-pain distraction to a low-Con character.
B4cchus
07-18-07, 06:02 AM I understand the balance issue but i disagree, partially, on the flavor part.

On the same hand, many skills could be reassigned to other abilities due to balancing issues but it seems this is only the case for concentration...

A concentration check made due to damage taken could indeed be justified to CON but i fail to see how e.g. casting defensively is a matter of pain treshold (maybe DEX would even be more logical for that).
lukelightning
07-18-07, 11:08 AM Wisdom is already too many things. It used to be "knowing the right thing to do" but then it turned into part willpower, part awareness, part piety.

Charisma could be willpower too. And intelligence could be "mental focus" which could apply to concentration as well.
spyderfreek
07-18-07, 02:14 PM You could make the check based off the stat that is prime for the class, but then you are giving the caster classes even more bonuses then they already have.
RobbyPants
07-18-07, 02:52 PM Also, even mental actions are based on the ability of your body to perform them. Without the body, the mind would die (unless you're a ghost :P).

Although, I do feel this is also done for balance reasons too.
Jaxgaret
07-18-07, 03:08 PM You can't spell Concentration without CON.

Quid pro quo, ipso facto, ceter parabis.

;)
Pentar
07-18-07, 05:20 PM I understand the balance issue but i disagree, partially, on the flavor part.

On the same hand, many skills could be reassigned to other abilities due to balancing issues but it seems this is only the case for concentration...

A concentration check made due to damage taken could indeed be justified to CON but i fail to see how e.g. casting defensively is a matter of pain treshold (maybe DEX would even be more logical for that).

In doing this, you're basically giving Wisdom based spellcasters are big advantage over non-Wisdom based casters. Constitution is a useful attribute but is not the primary attribute of any spellcaster... thus it is useful for all spellcasters but not overpoweringly so.

I don't disagree that thematically, it makes more sense, but in terms of balance, there really isn't any other option.
Xeviat-DM
07-19-07, 03:55 AM Wisdom based spellcasters are already the main ones who will go toe to toe with other foes; I'm perfectly fine with this.

I went one step further in my games: I made Concentration based on Wisdom, and combined Autohypnosis and Concentration into one skill. Now it's actually useful for noncasters (Monks anyone?).
Leilond
07-19-07, 03:59 AM Wisdom based spellcasters are already the main ones who will go toe to toe with other foes; I'm perfectly fine with this.

Thus you give them an advantage that isn't supposed
Do you think clerics and druid need that advantage?
Xeviat-DM
07-19-07, 04:05 AM Thus you give them an advantage that isn't supposed
Do you think clerics and druid need that advantage?

I don't see how having maybe another +2-+5 on Concentration is really that huge of a deal. Eventually, any caster auto succeeds Cast Defensively checks, without a Con mod, that it's really not a big issue in my opinion.

Clerics have a hard enough time selecting skills and still being a "character" (IE: Having a personality beyond the basics).
Leilond
07-19-07, 04:31 AM I don't see how having maybe another +2-+5 on Concentration is really that huge of a deal. Eventually, any caster auto succeeds Cast Defensively checks, without a Con mod, that it's really not a big issue in my opinion.

Clerics have a hard enough time selecting skills and still being a "character" (IE: Having a personality beyond the basics).
First
A 10 level cleric has 13 ranks in "concentration". +2 costitution modifiear (good for a cleric) and you'll have 15
This means that that cleric auto succeeds only when casting defensively 1st level spells.
He will fail with "1" when casting 2nd level spell, with "1-2" with 3rd level spells, "1-2-3" with fourth level spell, and with "1-2-3-4" with fifth level spell
If you use concentration, you'll have +5 windsom modifier. The final result is that you won't fail any check until 4th level spell and fail 5th level spell only on "1"
Thus yes, you're giving a boost to your clerics, a very good boost

Second
Concentration isn't used only when "casting defensively"
I don't know your DM, but I ALWAYS use the "ready action" against casters. Every "intellicence 10 or more" boss will order to his archers to point their bows on the casters and fire to interrupt them. And the DCs will be usually higher than "cast defensively", expecially if someone is using a +2 strenght composite +1 magical long bow or a simple "+1 flaming short bow" (average damage 8, average DC 18+spell level)

Thus, with this rule you are surely giving clerics a good gift
B4cchus
07-19-07, 06:00 AM First off: i am the DM and a player requested this house rule.
I have decided to playtest this as following for the coming few sessiosn:
-Concentration will be based on the ability score the spellcaster uses to determine his spell DC's.
-Non-casters use Wis.
-If a concentration check is required where damage dealt is part of the DC, Con is used.
I'll post my findings as soon as it has seen some playtesting.
Steely_Dan
07-19-07, 08:24 AM Yeah, I've often wondered how having a good immune system etc enables you to have a greater attention span etc.

I have gone the Saga route and made Endurance a skill (Con based), and Concentration is Wis based.
Pentar
07-19-07, 12:50 PM I don't see how having maybe another +2-+5 on Concentration is really that huge of a deal. Eventually, any caster auto succeeds Cast Defensively checks, without a Con mod, that it's really not a big issue in my opinion.

Clerics have a hard enough time selecting skills and still being a "character" (IE: Having a personality beyond the basics).

It's not just about giving Clerics and Druids an advantage... it's about giving non-Wisdom casters a disadvantage. Now, Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, etc. have to put points into Wisdom, which would otherwise be a dump-stat for them, in order to get Concentration up. Constitution at least, reasonably, is useful for everyone, because everyone can use hit points. Not withstanding that Fortitude tends to be an cloth-casters weak saving throw. Thus having points in Con is a good thing all around.

Having to throw points into Wisdom to get a good Concentration modifier means losing out on hit points, or dexterity, or something else... all to go into a stat that does not benefit the character in any other way...Since typically, spellcasters have a good Will save!

You're not just buffing clerics/druids, you're screwing over non-wisdom casters big time. But hey, your campaign... do as you will.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
B4cchus 07-18-07, 02:05 AM	hi Folks, I was discussing the concentration skill with one of my players and we concluded that concentration might be better off based on WIS instead of CON. The thought behind this is that, for starters, we believe that concentratingn is a mental action. The main part of concentrating is not allowing yourself to get distracted which sounds like a act of willpower(=wis) rather than a physical action(con). Are there any people who already treid this? Any thoughts on this? Regards, B4cchus.
Someone 07-18-07, 02:18 AM	Its a balance issue. If it were based on a mental stat, then one of the standard spellcasters- wizard/cleric/sorcerer or bard would have an innate advantage over the others. By basing it on a neutral attribute, none of the classes are getting it for free. As for a rationalization, one could argue that a character's Con score represents pain threshold, and something that would be a mere discomfort to a high-Con character would be excruciating, yell-out-loud, flinch-in-pain distraction to a low-Con character.
B4cchus 07-18-07, 06:02 AM	I understand the balance issue but i disagree, partially, on the flavor part. On the same hand, many skills could be reassigned to other abilities due to balancing issues but it seems this is only the case for concentration... A concentration check made due to damage taken could indeed be justified to CON but i fail to see how e.g. casting defensively is a matter of pain treshold (maybe DEX would even be more logical for that).
lukelightning 07-18-07, 11:08 AM	Wisdom is already too many things. It used to be "knowing the right thing to do" but then it turned into part willpower, part awareness, part piety. Charisma could be willpower too. And intelligence could be "mental focus" which could apply to concentration as well.
spyderfreek 07-18-07, 02:14 PM	You could make the check based off the stat that is prime for the class, but then you are giving the caster classes even more bonuses then they already have.
RobbyPants 07-18-07, 02:52 PM	Also, even mental actions are based on the ability of your body to perform them. Without the body, the mind would die (unless you're a ghost :P). Although, I do feel this is also done for balance reasons too.
Jaxgaret 07-18-07, 03:08 PM	You can't spell Concentration without CON. Quid pro quo, ipso facto, ceter parabis. ;)
Pentar 07-18-07, 05:20 PM	I understand the balance issue but i disagree, partially, on the flavor part. On the same hand, many skills could be reassigned to other abilities due to balancing issues but it seems this is only the case for concentration... A concentration check made due to damage taken could indeed be justified to CON but i fail to see how e.g. casting defensively is a matter of pain treshold (maybe DEX would even be more logical for that). In doing this, you're basically giving Wisdom based spellcasters are big advantage over non-Wisdom based casters. Constitution is a useful attribute but is not the primary attribute of any spellcaster... thus it is useful for all spellcasters but not overpoweringly so. I don't disagree that thematically, it makes more sense, but in terms of balance, there really isn't any other option.
Xeviat-DM 07-19-07, 03:55 AM	Wisdom based spellcasters are already the main ones who will go toe to toe with other foes; I'm perfectly fine with this. I went one step further in my games: I made Concentration based on Wisdom, and combined Autohypnosis and Concentration into one skill. Now it's actually useful for noncasters (Monks anyone?).
Leilond 07-19-07, 03:59 AM	Wisdom based spellcasters are already the main ones who will go toe to toe with other foes; I'm perfectly fine with this. Thus you give them an advantage that isn't supposed Do you think clerics and druid need that advantage?
Xeviat-DM 07-19-07, 04:05 AM	Thus you give them an advantage that isn't supposed Do you think clerics and druid need that advantage? I don't see how having maybe another +2-+5 on Concentration is really that huge of a deal. Eventually, any caster auto succeeds Cast Defensively checks, without a Con mod, that it's really not a big issue in my opinion. Clerics have a hard enough time selecting skills and still being a "character" (IE: Having a personality beyond the basics).
Leilond 07-19-07, 04:31 AM	I don't see how having maybe another +2-+5 on Concentration is really that huge of a deal. Eventually, any caster auto succeeds Cast Defensively checks, without a Con mod, that it's really not a big issue in my opinion. Clerics have a hard enough time selecting skills and still being a "character" (IE: Having a personality beyond the basics). First A 10 level cleric has 13 ranks in "concentration". +2 costitution modifiear (good for a cleric) and you'll have 15 This means that that cleric auto succeeds only when casting defensively 1st level spells. He will fail with "1" when casting 2nd level spell, with "1-2" with 3rd level spells, "1-2-3" with fourth level spell, and with "1-2-3-4" with fifth level spell If you use concentration, you'll have +5 windsom modifier. The final result is that you won't fail any check until 4th level spell and fail 5th level spell only on "1" Thus yes, you're giving a boost to your clerics, a very good boost Second Concentration isn't used only when "casting defensively" I don't know your DM, but I ALWAYS use the "ready action" against casters. Every "intellicence 10 or more" boss will order to his archers to point their bows on the casters and fire to interrupt them. And the DCs will be usually higher than "cast defensively", expecially if someone is using a +2 strenght composite +1 magical long bow or a simple "+1 flaming short bow" (average damage 8, average DC 18+spell level) Thus, with this rule you are surely giving clerics a good gift
B4cchus 07-19-07, 06:00 AM	First off: i am the DM and a player requested this house rule. I have decided to playtest this as following for the coming few sessiosn: -Concentration will be based on the ability score the spellcaster uses to determine his spell DC's. -Non-casters use Wis. -If a concentration check is required where damage dealt is part of the DC, Con is used. I'll post my findings as soon as it has seen some playtesting.
Steely_Dan 07-19-07, 08:24 AM	Yeah, I've often wondered how having a good immune system etc enables you to have a greater attention span etc. I have gone the Saga route and made Endurance a skill (Con based), and Concentration is Wis based.
Pentar 07-19-07, 12:50 PM	I don't see how having maybe another +2-+5 on Concentration is really that huge of a deal. Eventually, any caster auto succeeds Cast Defensively checks, without a Con mod, that it's really not a big issue in my opinion. Clerics have a hard enough time selecting skills and still being a "character" (IE: Having a personality beyond the basics). It's not just about giving Clerics and Druids an advantage... it's about giving non-Wisdom casters a disadvantage. Now, Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, etc. have to put points into Wisdom, which would otherwise be a dump-stat for them, in order to get Concentration up. Constitution at least, reasonably, is useful for everyone, because everyone can use hit points. Not withstanding that Fortitude tends to be an cloth-casters weak saving throw. Thus having points in Con is a good thing all around. Having to throw points into Wisdom to get a good Concentration modifier means losing out on hit points, or dexterity, or something else... all to go into a stat that does not benefit the character in any other way...Since typically, spellcasters have a good Will save! You're not just buffing clerics/druids, you're screwing over non-wisdom casters big time. But hey, your campaign... do as you will.