Concentration Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concentration Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aleolus
12-18-07, 02:37 PM Does it make sense to anyone that the Concentration skill, which is used almost exclusively by casters (Wizards, Clerics, etc) and skill-monkeys (Rouges, Bards, etc), is based off your Constitution, which is only of vital importance to tanks and meleeists (Fighters, Barbarians, etc.)? I think Concentration should be based off a mental ability score, like Wisdom or some such. That way, Casters can get better mods for it, because they'll have a +3 or +4 starting off (not including ranks), rather than a +1 or +2. I just think it makes more sense that you would use a mental ability score to represent how well you can concentrate on matters (ignoring distractions), rather than a physical ability score like Constitution (how tough your body is)
Vegepygmy
12-18-07, 02:59 PM Yeah, it should really be a Wisdom-based skill. But the designers didn't want Wis-based casters to gain a(nother?) benefit that their Int and Cha-based brethren wouldn't have, so they went with Constitution.
Akharu
12-18-07, 03:01 PM Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth. - Mike Tyson

I see no reason why it should be a mental stat. The concentration skill is there to assess a character's ability to deal with something violent and keep going.

Besides, the skill is strong enough the way it is now.
Bloodsoul
12-18-07, 07:00 PM You could always make it Charisma-based like the undead do.

Sorta related, but I like the ELH's idea of replacing Spellcraft's mod with the mod of the relevant spellcasting set-up.
runestar
12-18-07, 07:16 PM From a flavour POV, I can't see how int or even cha would affect your concentration check.

From an optimization (no derogatory term here) POV, sure.:)
Helspar
12-18-07, 07:36 PM Dealing mostly with casters in battle anyways:

Its based on Con because it is your bodies ability to deal with damage that is the issue here. You've been hit, now are you tough enough to shrug it off?

If it were someone jumping up and down in front of you yelling "boogetty boogetty boogetty!!!" while you're trying to cast, then it would be better associated with Int or Wis.

I agree that making a con check while doing something where you are not being assaulted, using a skill for instance, should not be based on constitution, but changing it opens the door for a lot of "what ifs?" and you'd have to rule on each possiblitiy instead of just relying on Constitution.
Aleolus
12-18-07, 11:41 PM Which is exactly where DM discretion comes in. I have no problem saying "OK, roll a Wisdom based Concentration check," if the situation calls for it. Thing is, it seems to call for it a lot, in the campaigns I run.
elonin
12-19-07, 09:39 PM I can see constition for concentration. For example an inept mage falls into some acid and survives but struggles to get his spell off. That is a constition check.
risner
12-19-07, 11:51 PM I can see constition for concentration. For example an inept mage falls into some acid and survives but struggles to get his spell off. That is a constition check.

To me, it makes perfect sense it is a Con check.

I don't see what intelligence, wisdom, or personality (Cha) has to do with how well you can concentrate. It certainly doesn't in real life. So, then what is the OP's reason for believing concentration is a mental thing?
Vegepygmy
12-20-07, 04:04 AM I don't see what intelligence, wisdom, or personality (Cha) has to do with how well you can concentrate.Wisdom includes willpower. The connection between one's willpower and one's ability to concentrate in the face of distractions seems incredibly obvious to me.

If Concentration applied only to situations in which one suffers damage, Constitution would make a good deal of sense...but it also applies to situations such as vigorous motion or a bee buzzing in one's ear. I don't see what Constitution has to do with how well you can concentrate in those situations at all.
1 ton ghost
12-20-07, 12:14 PM Concentration implies mental strength and all, but is not solely the province of Wisdom. that is, a degree of control over one's body/mind/spirit is reached when you are so damn good you can control your heartbeat, metabolic functions, circulatory, etc.
some monks of our world have done this and i would not call them iron mikes or anything. not hulks or decathalon materials, but they have uncanny control over their bodies, and thusly, their minds.
there is some grey area and all and no easy answer apart from the whole 'game balance' arguement, but perhaps there is something to be said for mental fortitude, no pun intended. Con normally is expressed physically, but more often than not, sound body = sound mind. this is an overgeneralization i know, but if you can master things like, oh, summoning fire or flight, chances are you are smart/wise enough to take care of your body as well.
apart from combat casting, vigorous motion the like for spellcraft, i would not be opposed to swapping out relevant abilities to a Concentration check now and again. we employ this alot:
-subbing in Dex for Bluff for innumerable scoundrel actions
-many Craft and Profession rolls don't make sense in their root ability
-Dex on a specific Disguise check for Blindsense/Sighted creatures, rare
-Str subbed in for Intimidate in lieu of Cha. this one is terribly common and fairly self-explanatory IMO. typically, i would imagine a real and visible threat vs. an implied one holds more water.
elonin
12-20-07, 12:57 PM I normally hate using real world examples to make a point in a game. However think back to your last flu or cold. Could you work at what you were doing? Yes probibly, but it took some effort. If someone hits you as you are casting a spell. You still know how to do the spell but you are checking to see if you involuntary wince (which flubs the spell). The stimuli are physical hence con.
Vegepygmy
12-20-07, 03:31 PM However think back to your last flu or cold. Could you work at what you were doing? Yes probibly, but it took some effort.Yes, but there wasn't anything particularly physical about that effort. It was really more of a "mind over body" kind of thing.
artentreri
03-19-08, 10:39 AM I have another concentration question. My player is in discussion with me saying that to disrupt his mage while spell casting (and make him roll concentration), even if I won initiative I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks in the order that initiative was thrown and then attack him. So, according to him if I win initiative against all of the party and he is last in all initiatives, I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks (thus letting the other players before me in the attack order) and then he has to throw a concentration check against my attacks dmg. To me if I win initiative and I attack him he has to roll the concentration check and I dont have to wait until that exact moment. What is the correct answer to the question?
Vharuck
03-19-08, 02:07 PM Yes, but there wasn't anything particularly physical about that effort. It was really more of a "mind over body" kind of thing.

Which isn't so much based on how intelligent, perceptive, or charismatic you are, but more on on both training (skill ranks) and how much the symptoms affected your health (Constitution).

People (for example, football players) perform painful training drills to, over time, reduce the effect their pain receptors play in their minds. They don't think about shrugging off the pain; they really are just so tough naturally and from training that they simply tolerate more. It really is a physical thing.
Vegepygmy
03-20-08, 02:11 AM Which isn't so much based on how intelligent, perceptive, or charismatic you are, but more on on both training (skill ranks) and how much the symptoms affected your health (Constitution)...

It really is a physical thing.Um...no. "Mind over body" really is what it sounds like: the mental over the physical.

And while you are correct that perception is not a factor, Wisdom is not only perception; it also includes willpower, which most definitely is a factor.

(Nice bit of necromancy, btw, Artentreri.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 12-18-07, 02:37 PM	Does it make sense to anyone that the Concentration skill, which is used almost exclusively by casters (Wizards, Clerics, etc) and skill-monkeys (Rouges, Bards, etc), is based off your Constitution, which is only of vital importance to tanks and meleeists (Fighters, Barbarians, etc.)? I think Concentration should be based off a mental ability score, like Wisdom or some such. That way, Casters can get better mods for it, because they'll have a +3 or +4 starting off (not including ranks), rather than a +1 or +2. I just think it makes more sense that you would use a mental ability score to represent how well you can concentrate on matters (ignoring distractions), rather than a physical ability score like Constitution (how tough your body is)
Vegepygmy 12-18-07, 02:59 PM	Yeah, it should really be a Wisdom-based skill. But the designers didn't want Wis-based casters to gain a(nother?) benefit that their Int and Cha-based brethren wouldn't have, so they went with Constitution.
Akharu 12-18-07, 03:01 PM	Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth. - Mike Tyson I see no reason why it should be a mental stat. The concentration skill is there to assess a character's ability to deal with something violent and keep going. Besides, the skill is strong enough the way it is now.
Bloodsoul 12-18-07, 07:00 PM	You could always make it Charisma-based like the undead do. Sorta related, but I like the ELH's idea of replacing Spellcraft's mod with the mod of the relevant spellcasting set-up.
runestar 12-18-07, 07:16 PM	From a flavour POV, I can't see how int or even cha would affect your concentration check. From an optimization (no derogatory term here) POV, sure.:)
Helspar 12-18-07, 07:36 PM	Dealing mostly with casters in battle anyways: Its based on Con because it is your bodies ability to deal with damage that is the issue here. You've been hit, now are you tough enough to shrug it off? If it were someone jumping up and down in front of you yelling "boogetty boogetty boogetty!!!" while you're trying to cast, then it would be better associated with Int or Wis. I agree that making a con check while doing something where you are not being assaulted, using a skill for instance, should not be based on constitution, but changing it opens the door for a lot of "what ifs?" and you'd have to rule on each possiblitiy instead of just relying on Constitution.
Aleolus 12-18-07, 11:41 PM	Which is exactly where DM discretion comes in. I have no problem saying "OK, roll a Wisdom based Concentration check," if the situation calls for it. Thing is, it seems to call for it a lot, in the campaigns I run.
elonin 12-19-07, 09:39 PM	I can see constition for concentration. For example an inept mage falls into some acid and survives but struggles to get his spell off. That is a constition check.
risner 12-19-07, 11:51 PM	I can see constition for concentration. For example an inept mage falls into some acid and survives but struggles to get his spell off. That is a constition check. To me, it makes perfect sense it is a Con check. I don't see what intelligence, wisdom, or personality (Cha) has to do with how well you can concentrate. It certainly doesn't in real life. So, then what is the OP's reason for believing concentration is a mental thing?
Vegepygmy 12-20-07, 04:04 AM	I don't see what intelligence, wisdom, or personality (Cha) has to do with how well you can concentrate.Wisdom includes willpower. The connection between one's willpower and one's ability to concentrate in the face of distractions seems incredibly obvious to me. If Concentration applied only to situations in which one suffers damage, Constitution would make a good deal of sense...but it also applies to situations such as vigorous motion or a bee buzzing in one's ear. I don't see what Constitution has to do with how well you can concentrate in those situations at all.
1 ton ghost 12-20-07, 12:14 PM	Concentration implies mental strength and all, but is not solely the province of Wisdom. that is, a degree of control over one's body/mind/spirit is reached when you are so damn good you can control your heartbeat, metabolic functions, circulatory, etc. some monks of our world have done this and i would not call them iron mikes or anything. not hulks or decathalon materials, but they have uncanny control over their bodies, and thusly, their minds. there is some grey area and all and no easy answer apart from the whole 'game balance' arguement, but perhaps there is something to be said for mental fortitude, no pun intended. Con normally is expressed physically, but more often than not, sound body = sound mind. this is an overgeneralization i know, but if you can master things like, oh, summoning fire or flight, chances are you are smart/wise enough to take care of your body as well. apart from combat casting, vigorous motion the like for spellcraft, i would not be opposed to swapping out relevant abilities to a Concentration check now and again. we employ this alot: -subbing in Dex for Bluff for innumerable scoundrel actions -many Craft and Profession rolls don't make sense in their root ability -Dex on a specific Disguise check for Blindsense/Sighted creatures, rare -Str subbed in for Intimidate in lieu of Cha. this one is terribly common and fairly self-explanatory IMO. typically, i would imagine a real and visible threat vs. an implied one holds more water.
elonin 12-20-07, 12:57 PM	I normally hate using real world examples to make a point in a game. However think back to your last flu or cold. Could you work at what you were doing? Yes probibly, but it took some effort. If someone hits you as you are casting a spell. You still know how to do the spell but you are checking to see if you involuntary wince (which flubs the spell). The stimuli are physical hence con.
Vegepygmy 12-20-07, 03:31 PM	However think back to your last flu or cold. Could you work at what you were doing? Yes probibly, but it took some effort.Yes, but there wasn't anything particularly physical about that effort. It was really more of a "mind over body" kind of thing.
artentreri 03-19-08, 10:39 AM	I have another concentration question. My player is in discussion with me saying that to disrupt his mage while spell casting (and make him roll concentration), even if I won initiative I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks in the order that initiative was thrown and then attack him. So, according to him if I win initiative against all of the party and he is last in all initiatives, I have to delay my attack to exactly before he attacks (thus letting the other players before me in the attack order) and then he has to throw a concentration check against my attacks dmg. To me if I win initiative and I attack him he has to roll the concentration check and I dont have to wait until that exact moment. What is the correct answer to the question?
Vharuck 03-19-08, 02:07 PM	Yes, but there wasn't anything particularly physical about that effort. It was really more of a "mind over body" kind of thing. Which isn't so much based on how intelligent, perceptive, or charismatic you are, but more on on both training (skill ranks) and how much the symptoms affected your health (Constitution). People (for example, football players) perform painful training drills to, over time, reduce the effect their pain receptors play in their minds. They don't think about shrugging off the pain; they really are just so tough naturally and from training that they simply tolerate more. It really is a physical thing.
Vegepygmy 03-20-08, 02:11 AM	Which isn't so much based on how intelligent, perceptive, or charismatic you are, but more on on both training (skill ranks) and how much the symptoms affected your health (Constitution)... It really is a physical thing.Um...no. "Mind over body" really is what it sounds like: the mental over the physical. And while you are correct that perception is not a factor, Wisdom is not only perception; it also includes willpower, which most definitely is a factor. (Nice bit of necromancy, btw, Artentreri.)