Confused by the Craft skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confused by the Craft skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PineBark
07-30-07, 11:12 AM I'm completely confused by the Crafting skill and how magic item crafting works.

First of all, some values seem way too high. For example to craft a masterwork suit of chainmail you'd have to spend about 9 weeks on it (it costs 150gp for the armor, that's 1500sp. Assuming I always roll an average of 20, it would take 5 weeks, and about 4 weeks for the masterwork component). I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths, I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months.

Now about magic items. It looks pretty simple. You'd have to have the apropriate feat and pay one half of the echantment bonus, and it would take you a day per 1000gp. So to enchant the already mentioned suit of chainmail to +2 you'd spend 2000gp and expend 160exp (4000gp/25?), it would take 4 days (4300gp/1000?). Oh, and I assume that by the rules you can enchant any masterwork item and you don't have to make it yourself.

So pretty much all I want to ask is whether my calculations are correct and am I doing it right? Sure some armor might be hard to make, but I doubt a suit of full plate should take over a year of continuous labor to craft.
bobothechimp
07-30-07, 11:21 AM It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Crafting & Carpentry.
wexer9
07-30-07, 11:52 AM I agree, the amount of time consumed does seem a bit excessive.
On subject of downtime, adventures have plenty of time between unconnected adventures.
Abbacabba
07-30-07, 11:53 AM I can tell you from doing it that making a "masterwork" suit of chainmail would take a long, long time.

The craft times for one person could very well be that long.

Figure a amour maker(not your regular blacksmith) would have multiple apprentice in his employ.

BTW, real chainmail is riveted, and with tens of thousands of links in a suit thats going to consume massive amounts of time.

I think the times are still alittle excessive, but use bonuses for :

Tools (+2 to +4 maybe)
Materials - taken case by case
Helpers - +2 for each helper
Magic - +Alot

Infact theres some great forge additions in Races of Stone(I believe) that give massive (+10 - +20) on crafts.
GrogMcGee
07-30-07, 11:54 AM I'm completely confused by the Crafting skill and how magic item crafting works.

First of all, some values seem way too high. For example to craft a masterwork suit of chainmail you'd have to spend about 9 weeks on it (it costs 150gp for the armor, that's 1500sp. Assuming I always roll an average of 20, it would take 5 weeks, and about 4 weeks for the masterwork component). I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths, I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months.

Now about magic items. It looks pretty simple. You'd have to have the apropriate feat and pay one half of the echantment bonus, and it would take you a day per 1000gp. So to enchant the already mentioned suit of chainmail to +2 you'd spend 2000gp and expend 160exp (4000gp/25?), it would take 4 days (4300gp/1000?). Oh, and I assume that by the rules you can enchant any masterwork item and you don't have to make it yourself.

So pretty much all I want to ask is whether my calculations are correct and am I doing it right? Sure some armor might be hard to make, but I doubt a suit of full plate should take over a year of continuous labor to craft.

Yeah, those calculations seem right.

And yes, the time it takes to make masterwork armor seems a tad excessive... don't know whether it's accurate to the real world. But this is DnD world ... still seems really excessive ...

It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Crafting & Carpentry.

I'm not sure that's a very helpful answer. :P
PineBark
07-30-07, 12:17 PM I understand that making chainmail takes a long time Abbacabba, but someone who has 6 or so ranks in Craft is a profesional who I assume would do it much faster than an untrained individual. And all the equipment and helpers don't lower the time that much, unfortunately.
I'm thinking about houseruling the week of crafting into 2 days. That way the masterwork suit of chainmail wouldnt take 9 weeks to complete, but 18 days, and the suit of full plate might take a few months, while weapons would only take a day or few (which seems pretty close to reality to me).

Any thoughts on this?
Lazigothi
07-30-07, 12:48 PM The DMG is a guideline. You can be as "realistic" or "fantastical" as you wish. Some items can take a long time to make. Contemporary chainmail crafted today can take around 180 hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_%28armour%29) (between 4 and 5 weeks). Part of the time consideration can include if there are assistants/ apprentices, etc. working on it, if there are other items being crafted in conjuction (i.e. there is more than just one customer) with other items, availability of materials, and, as you say, enough downtime.

Among the things to consider: how critical is it for the PC's to get their hands on the finished product? Do you want them to sweat for it, do they need to wait a level to get it, or is it fine for them to get something post haste? You can take the guidelines as is, or you can make the cost cheaper or more costly, quicker or longer to make depending on if your feel the power of your players' characters are getting out of hand with power or need more support. With creativity and flexibility, you can hand out good reasons why maybe it was easier at one point but not later, or vice-versa. Maybe there's a war going on, or a mine has run out. Expeditious manufacturing or excessive delays should be made into part of the story and not just a random die roll or static numbers.
TorgSmackie
07-30-07, 01:16 PM Assuming I always roll an average of 20, it would take 5 weeks, and about 4 weeks for the masterwork component). I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths, I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months.You start with an iron ingot. You have to make it into wire, either by hammering it into a sheet and cutting that into thin strips or by hammering it into a rod and then drawing it into wire. Drawing involves pulling the rod through increasingly narrow holes in your drawing plate. Also as it gets thinner, the wire gets longer, so each successive pull takes just a little bit more time than the one before it.

Once you have wire, you make a coil out of it by wrapping it around a rod or dowel. Cutting down one side of the coil with either wire cutters or a jeweler's saw gives you rings. Pressing each ring through a narrow funnel specifically made for this purpose squeezes them together slightly to create an overlap. You hammer one side of the overlap flat and punch a hole in, then you hammer the other end pointy and bend it 90 degrees so it'll pass through the hole. You'll close the rings by putting the pointy bit through the hole and hammering it flat. Alternatively, you could flatten both sides of the overlap, punch a hole through both, and close them using rivets which you would also have to make.

Then you start making maille. Every single ring has to be 'woven' into the pattern and hammered or riveted shut. You can save yourself a little time by closing about half of your rings.

A single hauberk (shirt) for Medium humanoid could take something on the order of 15,000 rings.

It really does take that long.

I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime...
"And so a decade passes peacefully, until one day..."
tarkin
07-30-07, 01:38 PM I always love the "But it takes too long arguments".

Somehow, none of the people that make it ever have any idea how long it takes to make things.
JadeSpider9643
07-30-07, 03:03 PM This topic is brought up on a regular basis and the relevant points always made boil down to these...

*Realisticly using setting appropiate methods it really does take that long or longer

*PCs are adventurers and combat oriented NOT blacksmith oriented, if you really focused on it, you could make a suit of MW full plate in 1-3 weeks depending how nuts you go

To craft a suit of MW full-plate...
lvl 10 NPC Human Expert blacksmith
Ability scores: Str 13 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 15 (elite array with +2 to Int from levels)
class skills:
-Craft(Armorsmithing) Max ranks 13 + 3 from Int
-Craft(weaponsmithing)
-Profession(blacksmith) +2 synergy
-Profession(Shopkeeper)
-Knowledge(blacksmith) +2 synergy
-Any 6 more

Feats:
Skill focus(Craft[weaponsmithing]) +3 bonus
Skill focus(craft[armorsmithing)+3 bonus
Heroic Destiny (RoD) +1d6 1/day (will calculate it as +1 minimum)
Words of Creation (BoED) +4 sacred bonus to craft

Gear:
Masterwork tools +2 bonus
-enchanted with +10 competance bonus to craft(blacksmith) (well within lvl 10 NPC wealth guidelines and less cost-effective even than multiple items with smaller bonuses)

Apprentices:
6x lvl 3 Human experts
-skill focus in both craft(weapon/armor smithing)
max ranks(6) + 1 INT +2 MW tools +3 skill focus + take10 = 21 on aid another
-You can increase the bonus from aid-another by +1 for each 10 the check beats the 10 DC, so 21 gives a +3 bonus

How it works:
13(ranks) + 3(Int) + 4(Synergy) +8(feats) +12(magic tools) + 18(from assistants)+ 10(Take 10, the die roll)=68 total check result
You raise the DC by 10 as many times as you want to accelerate work, so raise it to 68 for MW Fullplate, and your weekly progress is 4624sp out of 18,000sp, at this rate it'll take 4 weeks. And if you replace the apprentices with assistants more lvl 10 experts you could get it done in 3 weeks easily. and I'm sure there are plenty more bonuses and abilites you could pile in. there's even an Ebberon feat that lets you double your "weekly progress" checks, so it'd be done in 2 weeks.

*You don't have to use these rules (not talking about changing the rules) just pay cash for what you want, or have a mage cast fabricate

*Super-long crafting times are the dangling loose thread of game balance, items cost what they do to keep the PCs level-to-gear levels balanced and the crafting rules
jaelis
07-30-07, 03:03 PM One complaint about craft that I think is legitimate is that simple material costs get factored into the crafting time. For instance, it would take ten times longer to make a gold ring than it would an otherwise identical silver ring, which itself would be ten times longer than a copper ring. I've never seen any way for that to make sense.

Fortunately, I don't really care.
JadeSpider9643
07-30-07, 04:36 PM One complaint about craft that I think is legitimate is that simple material costs get factored into the crafting time. For instance, it would take ten times longer to make a gold ring than it would an otherwise identical silver ring, which itself would be ten times longer than a copper ring. I've never seen any way for that to make sense.

Fortunately, I don't really care.

different materials have different malleabilities (how hard the metal is). So some are easier to work with than others, and the more exotic (and thus expensive) a material is, the less familiar a smith would be with working with it. Iron? sure he works with iron daily. Pure gold? well it's so soft he's just not used to it.
jaelis
07-30-07, 04:57 PM I think a jeweler would be used to working with both gold and silver. And from what I understand, gold is actually rather easier to use.
BW0222
07-30-07, 07:40 PM PineBark,

I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months.

Do you know how time consuming it is to make several tens of thousand rings of metal with middle-age tools? A typical shirt runs 10,000 or so rings, a full suit likely 20-30,000 rinks. Besides sourcing all the materials, heating the forge, making a couple of miles of perfect diameter metal wire, cutting them to the correct links, crafting the padding... even at one ring per minute, assembly alone would take one human being 52 days!

I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths,

First, why not? Why can't adventurers take three or six months off in game? Is there any reason why they can't agree between adventures to advance the clock any arbitrary amount? I've yet to see PCs die of old age due to off time. Most campaigns rarely run more than a year or two unless the DM adds substantial down time.

Second, PCs are adventurers. They make more money killing a single orc than most blacksmiths make in a month. So, it is more economical and advantageous to be an adventurer than it is to be a smith? It has always been that way. A soldier earns enough money in a week to buy a rifle. So? That doesn't mean your average soldier can hand-build an M16 in seven days, nor does he need to.

Third, your calculates are a bit off for how a real armorer would operate. A 5th-level expert might run his own shop. He has 8 ranks, +3 int, +3 skill focus, and +2 masterwork tools. That is +16. He likely has six assistants (say 2nd-level experts) with 5 ranks, +2 int, +3 skill focus. Each is +10.

Now, he is rarely rushed to make anything. He likely keeps 3-5 suits of each of his suits of armor in stock and maybe a couple of suits of masterwork armor in the vault. He'd sell most folks what he has in hand and would start on replacing any stolks running low. Considering that only maybe 1 in 10 folks are PC classes and only 1 in 10 of them adventure, only 1 in 50 of those need a suit of masterwork chainmail and a suit lasts five years, he might only sell a suit of masterwork chainmail per two to three years. He might sell 3-5 suits of normal chainmail a year to a the local city watch -- having say 50 members wearing chainmail and a suit needs replacing every ten to fifteen years. Baring being the personal armor to the kings guards, he would have little need to supply large amounts of expensive armors.

However, let's say someone wanted something he didn't have in stock -- say he ran out of suits of masterwork chainmail and someone is willing to pay to have it make as quickly as possible. Well...

Cost of chainmail is 300gp (3000sp). DC is 20. The smith is +16 and he assigns five of his assistants to assist (each is +10 so they can't fail a DC 10 check to assist). The smith taking a 10 gets a 36. He voluntarily increases the DC of the crafting to 30 (quick creation rules). His smithy performs 1080sp worth of work per week. That chainmail is finished in 3 weeks.

If someone wanted it faster than that, you'd pay for an message spell to a dwarven wizard who is +10 on craft. He would charge 450gp for a fabricate spell plus 100gp for the materials, plus 450gp for a teleport spell, and you'd have a suit of masterwork chain mail on your desk in 48 hours.
PineBark
07-30-07, 08:57 PM Thanks for the in depth break down BW0222, this makes much more sense now. I really should reconsider houseruling Crafting. Sorry for being a dumbass and assuming too much since I really had no idea how long making armor could take.
Thanks for the help everyone, I think I understand the way everything works now :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PineBark 07-30-07, 11:12 AM	I'm completely confused by the Crafting skill and how magic item crafting works. First of all, some values seem way too high. For example to craft a masterwork suit of chainmail you'd have to spend about 9 weeks on it (it costs 150gp for the armor, that's 1500sp. Assuming I always roll an average of 20, it would take 5 weeks, and about 4 weeks for the masterwork component). I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths, I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months. Now about magic items. It looks pretty simple. You'd have to have the apropriate feat and pay one half of the echantment bonus, and it would take you a day per 1000gp. So to enchant the already mentioned suit of chainmail to +2 you'd spend 2000gp and expend 160exp (4000gp/25?), it would take 4 days (4300gp/1000?). Oh, and I assume that by the rules you can enchant any masterwork item and you don't have to make it yourself. So pretty much all I want to ask is whether my calculations are correct and am I doing it right? Sure some armor might be hard to make, but I doubt a suit of full plate should take over a year of continuous labor to craft.
bobothechimp 07-30-07, 11:21 AM	It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Crafting & Carpentry.
wexer9 07-30-07, 11:52 AM	I agree, the amount of time consumed does seem a bit excessive. On subject of downtime, adventures have plenty of time between unconnected adventures.
Abbacabba 07-30-07, 11:53 AM	I can tell you from doing it that making a "masterwork" suit of chainmail would take a long, long time. The craft times for one person could very well be that long. Figure a amour maker(not your regular blacksmith) would have multiple apprentice in his employ. BTW, real chainmail is riveted, and with tens of thousands of links in a suit thats going to consume massive amounts of time. I think the times are still alittle excessive, but use bonuses for : Tools (+2 to +4 maybe) Materials - taken case by case Helpers - +2 for each helper Magic - +Alot Infact theres some great forge additions in Races of Stone(I believe) that give massive (+10 - +20) on crafts.
GrogMcGee 07-30-07, 11:54 AM	I'm completely confused by the Crafting skill and how magic item crafting works. First of all, some values seem way too high. For example to craft a masterwork suit of chainmail you'd have to spend about 9 weeks on it (it costs 150gp for the armor, that's 1500sp. Assuming I always roll an average of 20, it would take 5 weeks, and about 4 weeks for the masterwork component). I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths, I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months. Now about magic items. It looks pretty simple. You'd have to have the apropriate feat and pay one half of the echantment bonus, and it would take you a day per 1000gp. So to enchant the already mentioned suit of chainmail to +2 you'd spend 2000gp and expend 160exp (4000gp/25?), it would take 4 days (4300gp/1000?). Oh, and I assume that by the rules you can enchant any masterwork item and you don't have to make it yourself. So pretty much all I want to ask is whether my calculations are correct and am I doing it right? Sure some armor might be hard to make, but I doubt a suit of full plate should take over a year of continuous labor to craft. Yeah, those calculations seem right. And yes, the time it takes to make masterwork armor seems a tad excessive... don't know whether it's accurate to the real world. But this is DnD world ... still seems really excessive ... It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Crafting & Carpentry. I'm not sure that's a very helpful answer. :P
PineBark 07-30-07, 12:17 PM	I understand that making chainmail takes a long time Abbacabba, but someone who has 6 or so ranks in Craft is a profesional who I assume would do it much faster than an untrained individual. And all the equipment and helpers don't lower the time that much, unfortunately. I'm thinking about houseruling the week of crafting into 2 days. That way the masterwork suit of chainmail wouldnt take 9 weeks to complete, but 18 days, and the suit of full plate might take a few months, while weapons would only take a day or few (which seems pretty close to reality to me). Any thoughts on this?
Lazigothi 07-30-07, 12:48 PM	The DMG is a guideline. You can be as "realistic" or "fantastical" as you wish. Some items can take a long time to make. Contemporary chainmail crafted today can take around 180 hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_%28armour%29) (between 4 and 5 weeks). Part of the time consideration can include if there are assistants/ apprentices, etc. working on it, if there are other items being crafted in conjuction (i.e. there is more than just one customer) with other items, availability of materials, and, as you say, enough downtime. Among the things to consider: how critical is it for the PC's to get their hands on the finished product? Do you want them to sweat for it, do they need to wait a level to get it, or is it fine for them to get something post haste? You can take the guidelines as is, or you can make the cost cheaper or more costly, quicker or longer to make depending on if your feel the power of your players' characters are getting out of hand with power or need more support. With creativity and flexibility, you can hand out good reasons why maybe it was easier at one point but not later, or vice-versa. Maybe there's a war going on, or a mine has run out. Expeditious manufacturing or excessive delays should be made into part of the story and not just a random die roll or static numbers.
TorgSmackie 07-30-07, 01:16 PM	Assuming I always roll an average of 20, it would take 5 weeks, and about 4 weeks for the masterwork component). I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths, I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months.You start with an iron ingot. You have to make it into wire, either by hammering it into a sheet and cutting that into thin strips or by hammering it into a rod and then drawing it into wire. Drawing involves pulling the rod through increasingly narrow holes in your drawing plate. Also as it gets thinner, the wire gets longer, so each successive pull takes just a little bit more time than the one before it. Once you have wire, you make a coil out of it by wrapping it around a rod or dowel. Cutting down one side of the coil with either wire cutters or a jeweler's saw gives you rings. Pressing each ring through a narrow funnel specifically made for this purpose squeezes them together slightly to create an overlap. You hammer one side of the overlap flat and punch a hole in, then you hammer the other end pointy and bend it 90 degrees so it'll pass through the hole. You'll close the rings by putting the pointy bit through the hole and hammering it flat. Alternatively, you could flatten both sides of the overlap, punch a hole through both, and close them using rivets which you would also have to make. Then you start making maille. Every single ring has to be 'woven' into the pattern and hammered or riveted shut. You can save yourself a little time by closing about half of your rings. A single hauberk (shirt) for Medium humanoid could take something on the order of 15,000 rings. It really does take that long. I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime... "And so a decade passes peacefully, until one day..."
tarkin 07-30-07, 01:38 PM	I always love the "But it takes too long arguments". Somehow, none of the people that make it ever have any idea how long it takes to make things.
JadeSpider9643 07-30-07, 03:03 PM	This topic is brought up on a regular basis and the relevant points always made boil down to these... Realisticly using setting appropiate methods it really does take that long or longer PCs are adventurers and combat oriented NOT blacksmith oriented, if you really focused on it, you could make a suit of MW full plate in 1-3 weeks depending how nuts you go To craft a suit of MW full-plate... lvl 10 NPC Human Expert blacksmith Ability scores: Str 13 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 15 (elite array with +2 to Int from levels) class skills: -Craft(Armorsmithing) Max ranks 13 + 3 from Int -Craft(weaponsmithing) -Profession(blacksmith) +2 synergy -Profession(Shopkeeper) -Knowledge(blacksmith) +2 synergy -Any 6 more Feats: Skill focus(Craft[weaponsmithing]) +3 bonus Skill focus(craft[armorsmithing)+3 bonus Heroic Destiny (RoD) +1d6 1/day (will calculate it as +1 minimum) Words of Creation (BoED) +4 sacred bonus to craft Gear: Masterwork tools +2 bonus -enchanted with +10 competance bonus to craft(blacksmith) (well within lvl 10 NPC wealth guidelines and less cost-effective even than multiple items with smaller bonuses) Apprentices: 6x lvl 3 Human experts -skill focus in both craft(weapon/armor smithing) max ranks(6) + 1 INT +2 MW tools +3 skill focus + take10 = 21 on aid another -You can increase the bonus from aid-another by +1 for each 10 the check beats the 10 DC, so 21 gives a +3 bonus How it works: 13(ranks) + 3(Int) + 4(Synergy) +8(feats) +12(magic tools) + 18(from assistants)+ 10(Take 10, the die roll)=68 total check result You raise the DC by 10 as many times as you want to accelerate work, so raise it to 68 for MW Fullplate, and your weekly progress is 4624sp out of 18,000sp, at this rate it'll take 4 weeks. And if you replace the apprentices with assistants more lvl 10 experts you could get it done in 3 weeks easily. and I'm sure there are plenty more bonuses and abilites you could pile in. there's even an Ebberon feat that lets you double your "weekly progress" checks, so it'd be done in 2 weeks. You don't have to use these rules (not talking about changing the rules) just pay cash for what you want, or have a mage cast fabricate Super-long crafting times are the dangling loose thread of game balance, items cost what they do to keep the PCs level-to-gear levels balanced and the crafting rules
jaelis 07-30-07, 03:03 PM	One complaint about craft that I think is legitimate is that simple material costs get factored into the crafting time. For instance, it would take ten times longer to make a gold ring than it would an otherwise identical silver ring, which itself would be ten times longer than a copper ring. I've never seen any way for that to make sense. Fortunately, I don't really care.
JadeSpider9643 07-30-07, 04:36 PM	One complaint about craft that I think is legitimate is that simple material costs get factored into the crafting time. For instance, it would take ten times longer to make a gold ring than it would an otherwise identical silver ring, which itself would be ten times longer than a copper ring. I've never seen any way for that to make sense. Fortunately, I don't really care. different materials have different malleabilities (how hard the metal is). So some are easier to work with than others, and the more exotic (and thus expensive) a material is, the less familiar a smith would be with working with it. Iron? sure he works with iron daily. Pure gold? well it's so soft he's just not used to it.
jaelis 07-30-07, 04:57 PM	I think a jeweler would be used to working with both gold and silver. And from what I understand, gold is actually rather easier to use.
BW0222 07-30-07, 07:40 PM	PineBark, I don't know how much work a suit of armor can take, but I seriously doubt that it's 3 months. Do you know how time consuming it is to make several tens of thousand rings of metal with middle-age tools? A typical shirt runs 10,000 or so rings, a full suit likely 20-30,000 rinks. Besides sourcing all the materials, heating the forge, making a couple of miles of perfect diameter metal wire, cutting them to the correct links, crafting the padding... even at one ring per minute, assembly alone would take one human being 52 days! I can't imagine the PCs ever having that much downtime, and it doesn't sound reasonable even for blacksmiths, First, why not? Why can't adventurers take three or six months off in game? Is there any reason why they can't agree between adventures to advance the clock any arbitrary amount? I've yet to see PCs die of old age due to off time. Most campaigns rarely run more than a year or two unless the DM adds substantial down time. Second, PCs are adventurers. They make more money killing a single orc than most blacksmiths make in a month. So, it is more economical and advantageous to be an adventurer than it is to be a smith? It has always been that way. A soldier earns enough money in a week to buy a rifle. So? That doesn't mean your average soldier can hand-build an M16 in seven days, nor does he need to. Third, your calculates are a bit off for how a real armorer would operate. A 5th-level expert might run his own shop. He has 8 ranks, +3 int, +3 skill focus, and +2 masterwork tools. That is +16. He likely has six assistants (say 2nd-level experts) with 5 ranks, +2 int, +3 skill focus. Each is +10. Now, he is rarely rushed to make anything. He likely keeps 3-5 suits of each of his suits of armor in stock and maybe a couple of suits of masterwork armor in the vault. He'd sell most folks what he has in hand and would start on replacing any stolks running low. Considering that only maybe 1 in 10 folks are PC classes and only 1 in 10 of them adventure, only 1 in 50 of those need a suit of masterwork chainmail and a suit lasts five years, he might only sell a suit of masterwork chainmail per two to three years. He might sell 3-5 suits of normal chainmail a year to a the local city watch -- having say 50 members wearing chainmail and a suit needs replacing every ten to fifteen years. Baring being the personal armor to the kings guards, he would have little need to supply large amounts of expensive armors. However, let's say someone wanted something he didn't have in stock -- say he ran out of suits of masterwork chainmail and someone is willing to pay to have it make as quickly as possible. Well... Cost of chainmail is 300gp (3000sp). DC is 20. The smith is +16 and he assigns five of his assistants to assist (each is +10 so they can't fail a DC 10 check to assist). The smith taking a 10 gets a 36. He voluntarily increases the DC of the crafting to 30 (quick creation rules). His smithy performs 1080sp worth of work per week. That chainmail is finished in 3 weeks. If someone wanted it faster than that, you'd pay for an message spell to a dwarven wizard who is +10 on craft. He would charge 450gp for a fabricate spell plus 100gp for the materials, plus 450gp for a teleport spell, and you'd have a suit of masterwork chain mail on your desk in 48 hours.
PineBark 07-30-07, 08:57 PM	Thanks for the in depth break down BW0222, this makes much more sense now. I really should reconsider houseruling Crafting. Sorry for being a dumbass and assuming too much since I really had no idea how long making armor could take. Thanks for the help everyone, I think I understand the way everything works now :P