Coup de Grace ... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace ... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lekidnesta
10-26-07, 07:22 AM Can u put some power attack on a Coup de Grace ?
runestar
10-26-07, 08:04 AM You auto-crit+confirm anyways, so there is absolutely no reason not to go all-out power attack when performing a CDG.

And if possible, quickdraw a scythe for that x4 crit while you are at it.;)
goawayugh
10-26-07, 08:45 AM No you cannot.Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack) [General]
Prerequisite

Str 13.
Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Since you don't need to make an attack roll or a CdG, then you can't use Power Attack.
runestar
10-26-07, 08:58 AM Since you don't need to make an attack roll or a CdG, then you can't use Power Attack.

You do make attack rolls, just that they are by default always natural 20s in this case.;)
goawayugh
10-26-07, 09:04 AM You do make attack rolls, just that they are by default always natural 20s in this case.;)Coup de Grace

As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).All it says is that you automatically hit. It says nothing about making an attack roll. In the Power Attack description (see above) it specifically says "attack roll". When you CdG, you are not rolling.
Eerongal
10-26-07, 09:25 AM Critical Hits
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Can't have a crit without an attack roll.

CDG is basically the same as taking a 20 on your attack roll and confirmation roll. There's still an "attack roll" per se, you just don't need to make it, because the results are specific.
goawayugh
10-26-07, 09:33 AM I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)?
Eerongal
10-26-07, 09:39 AM I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)?

well, to be fair, your interpretation is just that, another interpretation of the rules. As written, it could be taken either way, as their isn't enough definition to make an exact ruling, IMO. I'm just more inclined to believe the former interpretation. After all, it makes sense that you could not worry about accuracy and put your full force behind the attack, the person is just lying there :P
Rymosrac
10-26-07, 09:44 AM I nominate this to the lofty office of fuzzy issue.

I can see goaway's point - there is no attack roll. But since rogues will get their sneak attack damage on a Coup De Grace, I would probably rule allowing fighter-types to power attack on it. It's meant to be a nearly guaranteed one-hit-kill anyways.
Nephlite
10-26-07, 09:44 AM I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)?

unattened object are not AC 0. You can miss. AC 5 is not that easy, but not that hard. But yes, use PA.
Tordak
10-26-07, 09:48 AM I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)?

Absolutely. And so can you for coup de grace. It's a auto hit because the target is not able to move out of the way, because it is helpless, because it just stand (or lie) there and that there are no reason for you to miss. But it's still an attack which would normally require an attack roll, just that the circumstance make it an automatically sucessful attack roll (and a crit at that, altough in the case of objects they are immune to crit). It's not like, let say, a fireball where there is never need to roll to hit.
Tordak
10-26-07, 09:50 AM unattened object are not AC 0. You can miss. AC 5 is not that easy, but not that hard. But yes, use PA.

Oups, did not know that was not an automatic hit. Well then, you can PA even more so.
goawayugh
10-26-07, 09:55 AM unattened object are not AC 0. You can miss. AC 5 is not that easy, but not that hard. But yes, use PA.Armor Class

Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they usually don’t move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (-5 penalty to AC), but also an additional -2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.That's why I said "lining up the shot to auto-hit".
Tordak
10-26-07, 10:00 AM Either way, you can PA even if you take a full round to line-up the shot. But in most case it's probably better to PA and try to hit an AC likely between 0 and 10 if you have more than 1 attack per round since you can't crit object.
BW0222
10-27-07, 11:41 AM Folks,

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Since you don't need to make an attack roll or a CdG, then you can't use Power Attack.

It says that you need to declare power attack before making attack rolls. It doesn't say that you must make attack rolls.

The wording is there to prevent rolling and then deciding whether to power attack. However, the opposite is not necessarily true. Nothing says that you can't declare power attack if you aren't planning on making an attack roll. It would still apply to say AoOs or other uses.

Also, notice that is says that you subtract the number from all melee attack rolls and at the damage to all melee damage rolls. It doesn't say "add the damage to all attacks for which the attack roll penalty applied".
wizarddog
10-27-07, 07:37 PM Folks,

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

It says that you need to declare power attack before making attack rolls. It doesn't say that you must make attack rolls.

The wording is there to prevent rolling and then deciding whether to power attack. However, the opposite is not necessarily true. Nothing says that you can't declare power attack if you aren't planning on making an attack roll. It would still apply to say AoOs or other uses.

Also, notice that is says that you subtract the number from all melee attack rolls and at the damage to all melee damage rolls. It doesn't say "add the damage to all attacks for which the attack roll penalty applied".

I would agree that you cannot make a Power attack on a coup de grace. You hit automatically, therefore it is not the same as an attack roll which will always fail on a 1.
BW0222
10-27-07, 08:13 PM wizarddog

I would agree that you cannot make a Power attack on a coup de grace. You hit automatically, therefore it is not the same as an attack roll which will always fail on a 1.

Where does it say that the damage bonus only applies to the same attack rolls which the damage is based off of? It says all melee damage rolls. Coup damage is still a melee damage roll.

And even if it did say that it only applied for melee damage from a successful attack roll, coup de grace is an automatical critical hit. Does that mean that there is no attack roll, or your attack and threats rolls are treated as automatic hits?

From a logical stand-point I don't see why a barbarian can't wind up to hit an unconcious body with as much force as a concious one. Power attack is not otherwise negated by other forms of precision damage - sneak attack, other critical hits, etc.
RobbyPants
10-29-07, 03:54 PM Yeah, as long as we're getting really literal on what it states about Power Attack, then I have to agree with BW0222. Even still, I think this makes sense thematically, but as per RAW, I don't see anything that prevents it.
Napoleon_the_Clown
10-30-07, 01:24 AM What do you think the headsman is doing when he swings the axe down as hard as he can? Power attack. :P

The rules don't say anything against using PA on a coup de grace and it's something that you could do in real life. I see no reason why you couldn't do this, aside from the "cheap" factor. And, to be honest, if cheap factor was a valid excuse for making something impossible to do they'd disallow using anything with a crit multiplier of x4 or more when CDG'ing an opponent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lekidnesta 10-26-07, 07:22 AM	Can u put some power attack on a Coup de Grace ?
runestar 10-26-07, 08:04 AM	You auto-crit+confirm anyways, so there is absolutely no reason not to go all-out power attack when performing a CDG. And if possible, quickdraw a scythe for that x4 crit while you are at it.;)
goawayugh 10-26-07, 08:45 AM	No you cannot.Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack) [General] Prerequisite Str 13. Benefit On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Since you don't need to make an attack roll or a CdG, then you can't use Power Attack.
runestar 10-26-07, 08:58 AM	Since you don't need to make an attack roll or a CdG, then you can't use Power Attack. You do make attack rolls, just that they are by default always natural 20s in this case.;)
goawayugh 10-26-07, 09:04 AM	You do make attack rolls, just that they are by default always natural 20s in this case.;)Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).All it says is that you automatically hit. It says nothing about making an attack roll. In the Power Attack description (see above) it specifically says "attack roll". When you CdG, you are not rolling.
Eerongal 10-26-07, 09:25 AM	Critical Hits When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Can't have a crit without an attack roll. CDG is basically the same as taking a 20 on your attack roll and confirmation roll. There's still an "attack roll" per se, you just don't need to make it, because the results are specific.
goawayugh 10-26-07, 09:33 AM	I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)?
Eerongal 10-26-07, 09:39 AM	I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)? well, to be fair, your interpretation is just that, another interpretation of the rules. As written, it could be taken either way, as their isn't enough definition to make an exact ruling, IMO. I'm just more inclined to believe the former interpretation. After all, it makes sense that you could not worry about accuracy and put your full force behind the attack, the person is just lying there :P
Rymosrac 10-26-07, 09:44 AM	I nominate this to the lofty office of fuzzy issue. I can see goaway's point - there is no attack roll. But since rogues will get their sneak attack damage on a Coup De Grace, I would probably rule allowing fighter-types to power attack on it. It's meant to be a nearly guaranteed one-hit-kill anyways.
Nephlite 10-26-07, 09:44 AM	I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)? unattened object are not AC 0. You can miss. AC 5 is not that easy, but not that hard. But yes, use PA.
Tordak 10-26-07, 09:48 AM	I dunno, maybe I'm interpreting CdG too specifically. Can you Power Attack when attacking an unattended object (lining up the shot to auto-hit)? Absolutely. And so can you for coup de grace. It's a auto hit because the target is not able to move out of the way, because it is helpless, because it just stand (or lie) there and that there are no reason for you to miss. But it's still an attack which would normally require an attack roll, just that the circumstance make it an automatically sucessful attack roll (and a crit at that, altough in the case of objects they are immune to crit). It's not like, let say, a fireball where there is never need to roll to hit.
Tordak 10-26-07, 09:50 AM	unattened object are not AC 0. You can miss. AC 5 is not that easy, but not that hard. But yes, use PA. Oups, did not know that was not an automatic hit. Well then, you can PA even more so.
goawayugh 10-26-07, 09:55 AM	unattened object are not AC 0. You can miss. AC 5 is not that easy, but not that hard. But yes, use PA.Armor Class Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they usually don’t move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (-5 penalty to AC), but also an additional -2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.That's why I said "lining up the shot to auto-hit".
Tordak 10-26-07, 10:00 AM	Either way, you can PA even if you take a full round to line-up the shot. But in most case it's probably better to PA and try to hit an AC likely between 0 and 10 if you have more than 1 attack per round since you can't crit object.
BW0222 10-27-07, 11:41 AM	Folks, On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Since you don't need to make an attack roll or a CdG, then you can't use Power Attack. It says that you need to declare power attack before making attack rolls. It doesn't say that you must make attack rolls. The wording is there to prevent rolling and then deciding whether to power attack. However, the opposite is not necessarily true. Nothing says that you can't declare power attack if you aren't planning on making an attack roll. It would still apply to say AoOs or other uses. Also, notice that is says that you subtract the number from all melee attack rolls and at the damage to all melee damage rolls. It doesn't say "add the damage to all attacks for which the attack roll penalty applied".
wizarddog 10-27-07, 07:37 PM	Folks, On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. It says that you need to declare power attack before making attack rolls. It doesn't say that you must make attack rolls. The wording is there to prevent rolling and then deciding whether to power attack. However, the opposite is not necessarily true. Nothing says that you can't declare power attack if you aren't planning on making an attack roll. It would still apply to say AoOs or other uses. Also, notice that is says that you subtract the number from all melee attack rolls and at the damage to all melee damage rolls. It doesn't say "add the damage to all attacks for which the attack roll penalty applied". I would agree that you cannot make a Power attack on a coup de grace. You hit automatically, therefore it is not the same as an attack roll which will always fail on a 1.
BW0222 10-27-07, 08:13 PM	wizarddog I would agree that you cannot make a Power attack on a coup de grace. You hit automatically, therefore it is not the same as an attack roll which will always fail on a 1. Where does it say that the damage bonus only applies to the same attack rolls which the damage is based off of? It says all melee damage rolls. Coup damage is still a melee damage roll. And even if it did say that it only applied for melee damage from a successful attack roll, coup de grace is an automatical critical hit. Does that mean that there is no attack roll, or your attack and threats rolls are treated as automatic hits? From a logical stand-point I don't see why a barbarian can't wind up to hit an unconcious body with as much force as a concious one. Power attack is not otherwise negated by other forms of precision damage - sneak attack, other critical hits, etc.
RobbyPants 10-29-07, 03:54 PM	Yeah, as long as we're getting really literal on what it states about Power Attack, then I have to agree with BW0222. Even still, I think this makes sense thematically, but as per RAW, I don't see anything that prevents it.
Napoleon_the_Clown 10-30-07, 01:24 AM	What do you think the headsman is doing when he swings the axe down as hard as he can? Power attack. :P The rules don't say anything against using PA on a coup de grace and it's something that you could do in real life. I see no reason why you couldn't do this, aside from the "cheap" factor. And, to be honest, if cheap factor was a valid excuse for making something impossible to do they'd disallow using anything with a crit multiplier of x4 or more when CDG'ing an opponent.