Coup de Grace and Cleave [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace and Cleave [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
davenx01
05-12-07, 05:17 AM I was wondering if you had two oppondents side by side, and 1 was helpless. Can you do a Coup de Grace on the helpless guy, (and if they fail the Fortitude save), do a Cleave on the other guy?

It's an attack all be it a full round one?
Nezkrul
05-12-07, 06:03 AM Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

I would say yes, you can cleave an opponent you threaten if your Coup de Grace target dies (from either damage or the save) because you "dropped" them.
Forged_Fury
05-12-07, 09:07 AM Do note that, unless you have a reach weapon of some type, you're going to provoke an AoO to do this.

-FF
Orange20SiderOfDeath
05-12-07, 02:13 PM I would say no, because it says for cleave you get a attack at the same bonus you used to drop your 1st opponent. there is no attack role for a coup de grace.
StevenO
05-12-07, 02:44 PM No cleave from a CdG. As stated there is not attack roll involved with CdG. Secondly, inorder to perform a CdG that target is already effectively "dropped" even if you are just trying to make it permanent. I know that doesn't quite justify not cleaving if you CdG a Held opponent who is still standing but it certainly applies to most of the other situations you may CdG someone.

It can also be said that CdG isn't an attack but just a full round action. No attack means no cleave chance.
Lucas Blackstone
05-12-07, 04:34 PM Cleave doesn't say anything about the first attack requiring a roll. It says if you deal enough damage to drop or kill a creature. Then, the cleave attack must be done with the same bonus ( zero in the case of a CdG ), and same weapon. Rolls aren't mentioned in there, so I could see it reading as either way. It probably wasn't intended to be used in that fashion but it's also not a game breaking reading of the feat in my opinion.
Ryu Katsuragi
05-12-07, 08:49 PM No. Because a coup de grace is a specific action: You spend your turn finishing off that one enemy.

Houserule-wise, I can't see it as being a problem, as all you're doing is finishing off one already downed enemy, and getting another attack on one next to him when you could be full-round attacking.

But at lower levels... Doing so is effectively doubling your attacks, and at your next attack, it's 'I could finish this enemy off, get an AoO on myself, and get another attack at my full base attack rather than at -5'.
MageOfDancingDragons
05-12-07, 09:05 PM Think about it flavor wise. can you really follow through from a Coup de grace? I would not say so, it takes a lot of focus (the AoO) to strike a killing blow, I don't find it possible to follow through and hit someone else with the same strike.
Nathreet
05-12-07, 09:06 PM Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Str 13.

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Coup De Grace does involve a melee damage roll. So PA on a CdG seems legit by the rules, though questionable in practice.

Cleave [General]
Prerequisites
Str 13, Power Attack.

Benefit
If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Special
A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Deal enough damage to make a creature drop? Check. Same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature? I suppose you could substitute in your max BAB minus the power attack penalty. Still seems possible strictly by the rules, though questionable in practice.
runestar
05-12-07, 10:39 PM All the triggering conditions necessary to activate cleave seem to be qualified even from the CDG action.

You manage to kill someone with the melee damage you deal, you get a bonus attack from cleave. How does that not work with cleave?:confused:
Think about it flavor wise. can you really follow through from a Coup de grace? I would not say so, it takes a lot of focus (the AoO) to strike a killing blow, I don't find it possible to follow through and hit someone else with the same strike.
Perhaps. But we are talking about hard mechanics here, not flavour.:)

No. Because a coup de grace is a specific action: You spend your turn finishing off that one enemy.
So? How does this prevent cleave from triggering?(seeing as to how it is a free action, among other things?):confused:
StevenO
05-13-07, 12:03 AM For anyone saying you can cleave off a CdG how does this work. An opponent stable at -1 hp is effectively dropped; does this mean that using a CdG on this opponent will let me cleave into another?

Generally I hope most of you would agree that any character that is helpless (a requirement for CdG) has effectively been "dropped" so it is imposible to do so again and gain a cleave from it.
runestar
05-13-07, 12:24 AM Generally I hope most of you would agree that any character that is helpless (a requirement for CdG) has effectively been "dropped" so it is imposible to do so again and gain a cleave from it.
I am interested in seeing your definition for "dropped".
In dnd, this condition is a very narrow one. Made all the more specific by cleave, which states that "dropped" essentially means reducing them to below zero hp.

There are many ways of making a foe helpless for purposes of apply a CDG. Paralysing them via hold person or some other spell/effect is one such method. Which is why it is not a bad idea to carry around a scythe around with you for such a purpose.:)

For anyone saying you can cleave off a CdG how does this work. An opponent stable at -1 hp is effectively dropped; does this mean that using a CdG on this opponent will let me cleave into another?
Yes, in theory at least. In practice, no one would actually bother, since a normal hit should suffice to send him over the edge. You still get the extra attack from cleave, and the potential to funnel the rest of your extra attacks(assuming you do get them) onto another target.:)

A creature is dead regardless of whether it is at -11hp or -111hp.:)
StevenO
05-13-07, 11:53 PM I am interested in seeing your definition for "dropped".
In dnd, this condition is a very narrow one. Made all the more specific by cleave, which states that "dropped" essentially means reducing them to below zero hp.
...
Yes, in theory at least. In practice, no one would actually bother, since a normal hit should suffice to send him over the edge. You still get the extra attack from cleave, and the potential to funnel the rest of your extra attacks(assuming you do get them) onto another target.:)

A creature is dead regardless of whether it is at -11hp or -111hp.:)

To me "dropped" is effectively about the same as removing a character from combat barring outside aid. Note that the previously quoted text from cleave says dropped is "typically" defined as below 0 hp so there is some room for other situations DM permitting. To my thinking dropped and helpless are very closely related.

How can you drop an already dropped character so you can cleave from that? I agree you'd typically just throw an extra attack at a dying creature instead of performing a CdG but even then you shouldn't get a cleave attack just for finishing off a character that has already been dropped to negative HP.
runestar
05-14-07, 12:17 AM I just realized from your last statement that I am going horribly off-course with my discussion.

How can you drop an already dropped character so you can cleave from that? I agree you'd typically just throw an extra attack at a dying creature instead of performing a CdG but even then you shouldn't get a cleave attack just for finishing off a character that has already been dropped to negative HP.
My original point was focusing more on the "helpless" condition, and not so much on the "drop" condition, but I can certainly see where you are coming from.

I can understand from your POV that if a creature is already lying on the ground dying from being at -1hp, a blow to finish him off should not trigger cleave, even though there is really nothing suggesting that you cannot further drop a creature who has already been dropped, inane as the notion may sound.

To me "dropped" is effectively about the same as removing a character from combat barring outside aid. Note that the previously quoted text from cleave says dropped is "typically" defined as below 0 hp so there is some room for other situations DM permitting. To my thinking dropped and helpless are very closely related.
It still seems rather vague, but it is at least a start. In the very least, I am not sure what you mean by "removing from combat".

Which brings me to my earlier point - how would you adjudicate for a person paralysed by hold person? By game mechanics, he is helpless, and thus subject to the CDG rules. But he would not be "removed from combat" so to speak(a psion could still manifest powers, and spellcasters can still cast silent+stilled+eschewed material spells). And a fighter who performs a CDG on him(and successfully reducing him to -1hp or less) should qualify for the extra attack from cleave, would he not?:P
Nom
05-14-07, 02:27 AM If you struck him with an attack, I'd allow a Cleave. If you struck him with a CdG, I wouldn't, because you didn't drop him with an attack and thus the "same weapon and attack bonus as the attack which dropped the opponent" condition can't be met: you didn't make an attack and it didn't have an attack bonus.

A simple proof by contradiction that a CdG is not an attack: You can substitue a special attack (eg grapple, disarm, sunder, trip) for an attack. There is no mechanism to substitute any of these during a CdG, thus it isn't an attack.
Nezkrul
05-14-07, 09:22 AM A simple proof by contradiction that a CdG is not an attack: You can substitue a special attack (eg grapple, disarm, sunder, trip) for an attack. There is no mechanism to substitute any of these during a CdG, thus it isn't an attack.

I concur with this interpretation and rescind my first post. However, if the character wished to risk missing the helpless foe with a normal attack to finish him off quicker, I would allow that to cleave, since his hit will satisfy the usual condition of dropping the foe below 0 hitpoints (or even killing him if he does enough damage).

Hence the phrase: "Golfing with a Great Axe."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
davenx01 05-12-07, 05:17 AM	I was wondering if you had two oppondents side by side, and 1 was helpless. Can you do a Coup de Grace on the helpless guy, (and if they fail the Fortitude save), do a Cleave on the other guy? It's an attack all be it a full round one?
Nezkrul 05-12-07, 06:03 AM	Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. I would say yes, you can cleave an opponent you threaten if your Coup de Grace target dies (from either damage or the save) because you "dropped" them.
Forged_Fury 05-12-07, 09:07 AM	Do note that, unless you have a reach weapon of some type, you're going to provoke an AoO to do this. -FF
Orange20SiderOfDeath 05-12-07, 02:13 PM	I would say no, because it says for cleave you get a attack at the same bonus you used to drop your 1st opponent. there is no attack role for a coup de grace.
StevenO 05-12-07, 02:44 PM	No cleave from a CdG. As stated there is not attack roll involved with CdG. Secondly, inorder to perform a CdG that target is already effectively "dropped" even if you are just trying to make it permanent. I know that doesn't quite justify not cleaving if you CdG a Held opponent who is still standing but it certainly applies to most of the other situations you may CdG someone. It can also be said that CdG isn't an attack but just a full round action. No attack means no cleave chance.
Lucas Blackstone 05-12-07, 04:34 PM	Cleave doesn't say anything about the first attack requiring a roll. It says if you deal enough damage to drop or kill a creature. Then, the cleave attack must be done with the same bonus ( zero in the case of a CdG ), and same weapon. Rolls aren't mentioned in there, so I could see it reading as either way. It probably wasn't intended to be used in that fashion but it's also not a game breaking reading of the feat in my opinion.
Ryu Katsuragi 05-12-07, 08:49 PM	No. Because a coup de grace is a specific action: You spend your turn finishing off that one enemy. Houserule-wise, I can't see it as being a problem, as all you're doing is finishing off one already downed enemy, and getting another attack on one next to him when you could be full-round attacking. But at lower levels... Doing so is effectively doubling your attacks, and at your next attack, it's 'I could finish this enemy off, get an AoO on myself, and get another attack at my full base attack rather than at -5'.
MageOfDancingDragons 05-12-07, 09:05 PM	Think about it flavor wise. can you really follow through from a Coup de grace? I would not say so, it takes a lot of focus (the AoO) to strike a killing blow, I don't find it possible to follow through and hit someone else with the same strike.
Nathreet 05-12-07, 09:06 PM	Power Attack [General] Prerequisite Str 13. Benefit On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Special If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.) A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. Coup De Grace does involve a melee damage roll. So PA on a CdG seems legit by the rules, though questionable in practice. Cleave [General] Prerequisites Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Special A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats. Deal enough damage to make a creature drop? Check. Same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature? I suppose you could substitute in your max BAB minus the power attack penalty. Still seems possible strictly by the rules, though questionable in practice.
runestar 05-12-07, 10:39 PM	All the triggering conditions necessary to activate cleave seem to be qualified even from the CDG action. You manage to kill someone with the melee damage you deal, you get a bonus attack from cleave. How does that not work with cleave?:confused: Think about it flavor wise. can you really follow through from a Coup de grace? I would not say so, it takes a lot of focus (the AoO) to strike a killing blow, I don't find it possible to follow through and hit someone else with the same strike. Perhaps. But we are talking about hard mechanics here, not flavour.:) No. Because a coup de grace is a specific action: You spend your turn finishing off that one enemy. So? How does this prevent cleave from triggering?(seeing as to how it is a free action, among other things?):confused:
StevenO 05-13-07, 12:03 AM	For anyone saying you can cleave off a CdG how does this work. An opponent stable at -1 hp is effectively dropped; does this mean that using a CdG on this opponent will let me cleave into another? Generally I hope most of you would agree that any character that is helpless (a requirement for CdG) has effectively been "dropped" so it is imposible to do so again and gain a cleave from it.
runestar 05-13-07, 12:24 AM	Generally I hope most of you would agree that any character that is helpless (a requirement for CdG) has effectively been "dropped" so it is imposible to do so again and gain a cleave from it. I am interested in seeing your definition for "dropped". In dnd, this condition is a very narrow one. Made all the more specific by cleave, which states that "dropped" essentially means reducing them to below zero hp. There are many ways of making a foe helpless for purposes of apply a CDG. Paralysing them via hold person or some other spell/effect is one such method. Which is why it is not a bad idea to carry around a scythe around with you for such a purpose.:) For anyone saying you can cleave off a CdG how does this work. An opponent stable at -1 hp is effectively dropped; does this mean that using a CdG on this opponent will let me cleave into another? Yes, in theory at least. In practice, no one would actually bother, since a normal hit should suffice to send him over the edge. You still get the extra attack from cleave, and the potential to funnel the rest of your extra attacks(assuming you do get them) onto another target.:) A creature is dead regardless of whether it is at -11hp or -111hp.:)
StevenO 05-13-07, 11:53 PM	I am interested in seeing your definition for "dropped". In dnd, this condition is a very narrow one. Made all the more specific by cleave, which states that "dropped" essentially means reducing them to below zero hp. ... Yes, in theory at least. In practice, no one would actually bother, since a normal hit should suffice to send him over the edge. You still get the extra attack from cleave, and the potential to funnel the rest of your extra attacks(assuming you do get them) onto another target.:) A creature is dead regardless of whether it is at -11hp or -111hp.:) To me "dropped" is effectively about the same as removing a character from combat barring outside aid. Note that the previously quoted text from cleave says dropped is "typically" defined as below 0 hp so there is some room for other situations DM permitting. To my thinking dropped and helpless are very closely related. How can you drop an already dropped character so you can cleave from that? I agree you'd typically just throw an extra attack at a dying creature instead of performing a CdG but even then you shouldn't get a cleave attack just for finishing off a character that has already been dropped to negative HP.
runestar 05-14-07, 12:17 AM	I just realized from your last statement that I am going horribly off-course with my discussion. How can you drop an already dropped character so you can cleave from that? I agree you'd typically just throw an extra attack at a dying creature instead of performing a CdG but even then you shouldn't get a cleave attack just for finishing off a character that has already been dropped to negative HP. My original point was focusing more on the "helpless" condition, and not so much on the "drop" condition, but I can certainly see where you are coming from. I can understand from your POV that if a creature is already lying on the ground dying from being at -1hp, a blow to finish him off should not trigger cleave, even though there is really nothing suggesting that you cannot further drop a creature who has already been dropped, inane as the notion may sound. To me "dropped" is effectively about the same as removing a character from combat barring outside aid. Note that the previously quoted text from cleave says dropped is "typically" defined as below 0 hp so there is some room for other situations DM permitting. To my thinking dropped and helpless are very closely related. It still seems rather vague, but it is at least a start. In the very least, I am not sure what you mean by "removing from combat". Which brings me to my earlier point - how would you adjudicate for a person paralysed by hold person? By game mechanics, he is helpless, and thus subject to the CDG rules. But he would not be "removed from combat" so to speak(a psion could still manifest powers, and spellcasters can still cast silent+stilled+eschewed material spells). And a fighter who performs a CDG on him(and successfully reducing him to -1hp or less) should qualify for the extra attack from cleave, would he not?:P
Nom 05-14-07, 02:27 AM	If you struck him with an attack, I'd allow a Cleave. If you struck him with a CdG, I wouldn't, because you didn't drop him with an attack and thus the "same weapon and attack bonus as the attack which dropped the opponent" condition can't be met: you didn't make an attack and it didn't have an attack bonus. A simple proof by contradiction that a CdG is not an attack: You can substitue a special attack (eg grapple, disarm, sunder, trip) for an attack. There is no mechanism to substitute any of these during a CdG, thus it isn't an attack.
Nezkrul 05-14-07, 09:22 AM	A simple proof by contradiction that a CdG is not an attack: You can substitue a special attack (eg grapple, disarm, sunder, trip) for an attack. There is no mechanism to substitute any of these during a CdG, thus it isn't an attack. I concur with this interpretation and rescind my first post. However, if the character wished to risk missing the helpless foe with a normal attack to finish him off quicker, I would allow that to cleave, since his hit will satisfy the usual condition of dropping the foe below 0 hitpoints (or even killing him if he does enough damage). Hence the phrase: "Golfing with a Great Axe."