Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkPawn 07-23-07, 05:41 PM	Okay, just realized that craft skills are not listed under trained skills. This blows my mind. You're telling me that someone who has never crafted a sword, or suit of armor, can simply grab some metal and hammer out a suit of full plate? This seems impossible to me. I have no clue how to make armor and I could try..but man it would be a pile of garbage and probably add to my chance of being hit then help. Any but have a reason why they decided to allow people to craft items without having at least 1 rank in it?
UnknownMourner 07-23-07, 05:59 PM	You can handle it like knowledges; if the DC is 10, anyone can try. Someone had to get the first rank somehow.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 06:11 PM	I'm no plumber, drywaller, woodworker or bricklayer, but I just redid my basement bathroom without professional help. It can be assumed that I have 0 ranks in the relevant craft skill, but I'm reasonably intelligent (The tests I take, both IQ and D&D related, put me at the equivalent of about a +3 Int mod), I worked with my father (also untrained, but we'll say he's Aid Anothering me. He may be smarter, I don't know, but it doesn't really matter here), and we had a few plans to work from and we constantly rented the tools we needed (I'd say this, collectively, would have been the perfect 'tool' for the job, being a +2 Circumstance bonus). Even taking 10, that hits DC 17. Similarly, I had no experience working with armor, and yet I managed to figure out how to make a chain shirt from scratch. Granted, I was working with 14-gauge aluminum wire (not combat-ready, I can slack, -2 DC), and I had to work with only basic tools (no -2 penalty, but no +2 bonus either). I got a hauberk made rather quickly from that (the DC to create a chain shirt is 14, which I apparently could hit by taking 10 with that -2 DC adjustment in there). It's not all that difficult to do, especially in a world where you'd see blacksmithing all around you (presumably).
ShinAkuma2 07-23-07, 06:31 PM	You're telling me that someone who has never crafted a sword, or suit of armor, can simply grab some metal and hammer out a suit of full plate? Well, that's a DC 18 craft check, with a minimum of 47 successful weekly checks to make full plate, so while it is possible, it's nothing you'll be doing overnight. Assuming you have a +1 to Int (reasonable, I think) and normal tools, you'd probably need about 4 and a half years (assuming I'm getting the craft rules correct). Good luck with that.
StruckingFuggle 07-23-07, 06:55 PM	To do anything difficult, untrained, you'd need to be highly intelligent and with magical help out the wazoo. Why couldn't someone like that do it "untrained"?
DarkPawn 07-23-07, 08:04 PM	I just think making armor, swords, bows, without having any knowledge of how makes it seem kind of impossible. You would be able to make the basic principle but it would probably backfire or work so bad you hurt yourself. Over time you would learn by trial and error (how the first person learned) but this could take years! And for those of you who say you were untrained finishing your basement (which I did too), you never saw a television show with people doing that? You never saw a friend or watched someone else? You just did it with absolutely no clue what tools or materials you would need? I find that unlikely. I'm just saying picking up a chunk of ore, refining it, and crafting something does not seem like something you should or could do successfully (no chance) on the first try or a few tries. After you failed a dozen times you would have gained 1 rank at least. SO that defeats the point. Look at the light bulb, how many times was there a failure? Lets me realistic here.
Metafictional 07-23-07, 08:20 PM	Well the main reason Craft Skills are untrained: Yes is because you have to be able to teach yourself Craft Skills. There was no magic book of Blacksmithing handed to the first smiths in ancient times, so obviously someone figured this out the hard way. It would be hard to imagine someone putting a point into a skill they've never used in order to gain experience with it...don't you think? Another reason is that there are a lot of Craft Skills, and logically, there should be some overlap, a Blacksmith should know something about weaponsmithing and vice-versa, but the rules don't support this. So instead, it may have been decided to simply let a Blacksmith attempt a weaponsmithing check without points invested. Finally, there are low DC craft checks that anyone should be able to do. One doesn't need to be a wood-worker to hammer a nail into a wall...although it helps. DnD Fighters are assumed to know how to maintain and care for their weapons and armor without actual skill points invested, these are DC 5 or 10 checks, IMO. Also, given the nature of how Craft Skills work in DnD, the reason to put points into a skill is time. Yes, by taking 20, I, Expert: RPG Gamer level 3, with no points in Craft, could make a Katana (MW Bastard Sword). Even assuming I have a healthy +2 or better Int modifier, to let me get around not having the best possible tools for the job, that's a process that will take me a very long time, even by DnD's rather simplistic Craft rules. That having been said, feel free to rule ZERO the "Yes" part of Craft checks, it's not that big a deal to ask someone invest a Skill Point to make basic checks. Although, as I recall, stranded on a deserted island, Robinson Crusoe made a Spear and later a Bow, and he was no weaponsmith or bowyer. I suppose you could say "Well Robinson, you've been on this island awhile, so you go up a level" and his response was "Hot damn, I'm buying Craft!". But I see our ability to make and use tools as an innate survival trait. We may not be good at it, but when the chips are down, humans are good at improvising. Just watch a movie like Castaway and ask yourself "could I do that?".
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 08:23 PM	And for those of you who say you were untrained finishing your basement (which I did too), you never saw a television show with people doing that? You never saw a friend or watched someone else? You just did it with absolutely no clue what tools or materials you would need? I find that unlikely. Actually, that's right. I have never once seen one of those TV shows (I don't watch TV besides the local news and the odd Discovery Channel show, typically Daily Planet, Mythbusters, or a nature documentary, and others can attest that I've been like this for years). I did, however, say we had documentation to work from (hence the +2 circumstance; it was essentially a how-to book). Even that isn't everything we needed, and we worked out the rest as we went. I'm just saying picking up a chunk of ore, refining it, and crafting something does not seem like something you should or could do successfully (no chance) on the first try or a few tries. After you failed a dozen times you would have gained 1 rank at least. SO that defeats the point. Good thing that the raw materials for making armor are not the same as for making *metal*, then. (What you're describing is metallurgy, which falls more under Profession (Miner or Refiner) or even Craft (Alchemy) than Craft (armorsmithing).) Look at the light bulb, how many times was there a failure? Lets me realistic here. That's also an INVENTION, meaning no one had any idea what to do to create it before it was made. I'm fairly sure that Johannes von Blacksmith sitting in Hommlet's smithy hasn't heard of chainmail.
DarkPawn 07-23-07, 08:43 PM	Actually, that's right. I have never once seen one of those TV shows (I don't watch TV besides the local news and the odd Discovery Channel show, typically Daily Planet, Mythbusters, or a nature documentary, and others can attest that I've been like this for years). I did, however, say we had documentation to work from (hence the +2 circumstance; it was essentially a how-to book). Even that isn't everything we needed, and we worked out the rest as we went. Good thing that the raw materials for making armor are not the same as for making *metal*, then. (What you're describing is metallurgy, which falls more under Profession (Miner or Refiner) or even Craft (Alchemy) than Craft (armorsmithing).) That's also an INVENTION, meaning no one had any idea what to do to create it before it was made. I'm fairly sure that Johannes von Blacksmith sitting in Hommlet's smithy hasn't heard of chainmail. Having a book explaining how to do it is a HUGE advantage people in a D&D setting wouldn't have. Also I find it hard to believe that you or others haven't looked online or at least caught the end of some home fixing (flipping) show. Not to mention you probably have at least a high school education. This means you'd have a lot of skills like math and such that would greatly aid you. How about a shop class? The point is knowledge is easily transfered in our age. This is not the case in most D&D settings. So if you had never at least watched someone try crafting a sword, I find it highly unlikely you would by chance make a working sword. I think you would fail many, many, many times before you made a working item. To just say you're going to make a boat, ship, sword, composite bow, full plate armor, catapult, etc...and actually make it first attempt is "IMPOSSIBLE." Literally impossible, and I don't believe it makes any sense. Hence I think I'm going to house rule that craft skills must be trained to actually make something other then crude (primitive caveman-like) tools.
ShinAkuma2 07-23-07, 08:56 PM	I think you would fail many, many, many times before you made a working item. To just say you're going to make a boat, ship, sword, composite bow, full plate armor, catapult, etc...and actually make it first attempt is "IMPOSSIBLE." Literally impossible, and I don't believe it makes any sense. On average, it would take someone with no ranks and 12 int four tries (ie 4 weeks) to make a longsword, and that's the simplest/cheapest thing on your list. While it's *possible* by the D&D model to make things correctly on the first try, it's not entirely *probable*, just like it's *possible* you'll always crit everything you fight. I don't think it's impossible that someone could get it right on the first try. Luck is a part of skill, too.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 08:59 PM	Having a book explaining how to do it is a HUGE advantage people in a D&D setting wouldn't have. Also I find it hard to believe that you or others haven't looked online or at least caught the end of some home fixing (flipping) show. Not to mention you probably have at least a high school education. This means you'd have a lot of skills like math and such that would greatly aid you. How about a shop class? And you don't think that basic math, tool use, and similar aren't passed on in a master-apprentice system like D&D NPCs apparently use? Believe me, the information and training were there, as were the tools. Also, I noted that the information we had in the book was the perfect tool for the job, which D&D accounts for as a +2 circumstance bonus. For Craft, it could be perfect tools or it could be step-by-step instructions. (Ours were more complex than that, but still.) The point is knowledge is easily transfered in our age. This is not the case in most D&D settings. So if you had never at least watched someone try crafting a sword, I find it highly unlikely you would by chance make a working sword. I think you would fail many, many, many times before you made a working item. To just say you're going to make a boat, ship, sword, composite bow, full plate armor, catapult, etc...and actually make it first attempt is "IMPOSSIBLE." Literally impossible, and I don't believe it makes any sense. Good thing that's accounted for twice in the rules -- the first by a very high DC (Check what the DCs are to create those objects! They're OUT OF REACH for most NPCs!) and the second by the increased cost needed to take 20 (which assumes you keep trying over and over again, failing all the time, until you finally manage to figure it out afterwards) -- don't you think? Hence I think I'm going to house rule that craft skills must be trained to actually make something other then crude (primitive caveman-like) tools. I think you're thinking that the lack of public schooling* and the internet equates to a lack of education. It doesn't. * Not to mention that some settings, Eberron in particular, HAVE public schooling...
DarkPawn 07-23-07, 09:01 PM	I don't think it's impossible that someone could get it right on the first try. Luck is a part of skill, too. I agree by RAW you're 100% correct. Someone could get lucky and make it unskilled. That is the problem. It is completely unrealistic and silly. Monty Python like, imho. Kind of why I'm thinking about making a house rule. The main abuse by RAW, is it doesn't take four weeks or so to make items. But you add the spell fabricate and things just entered absurdly corny and cheesy.
DarkPawn 07-23-07, 09:02 PM	What education do you think was available in Europe during the dark ages, for commoners?
zeratulcraft 07-23-07, 09:32 PM	http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html Scroll down to Knowledge and Crafting, very little is out of reach for the 3-5th level Blacksmith NPC.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 09:40 PM	What education do you think was available in Europe during the dark ages, for commoners? Good thing that European dark age education isn't the standard in any D&D world, then, eh?
DarkPawn 07-23-07, 09:43 PM	Good thing that European dark age education isn't the standard in any D&D world, then, eh? So what would you base a D&D world education on?
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 10:03 PM	I'm writing from a blackberry now. So sue me if I'm terse by my standards. Eberron has public education in the Five Nations and any nation inheriting their laws. It's considered a right. Faerun has tons of high-end masters of the craft everywhere, and judging from the standard of living in cities like Waterdeep (which is relatively mundane as far as Realms cities go; need I mention Halruaa?), it wouldn't be hard to find master craftsmen, let alone mundane ones, to watch or speak to, much as it isn't hard to find a tool rental shop or some wage slave at Home Depot to ask simple questions of or procure scrap material. Greyhawk has a rich oral tradition and master/apprentice tradition that every other setting has inherited, albiet typically in their less urbanized areas (most small towns are assumed to behave this way; all of Greyhawk's human nations pretty much use this technique). I'm less adept with the nuances of this world than I am with the others, though, since I find it so bland. Other settings have had some form of practical education (most of the NPCs in Dark Sun, for instance; PCs were already special cases there, and the limiting case in that world is the ludicrous cost of metal, so you wind up working with clay, stone, bone, and so on more often than metal. That said, PCs, being special, could probably find metallic gear relatively straightforward; whether they'd want it in the desert is another case altogether). Oh, and while we're at it, you mention Europe? What of the rest of the world? Looking at Faerun's Toril alone, only the Dales and Waterdeep (and similar nearby areas) are ostensibly European. Others drip of fantasy races (go ahead and tell me what the education system in Silverymoon is!), ostensible magic (Halruaa in particular, but also Rashemon and Thay) or of non-European real-world areas (Calimshan = Arabian lands, Mulholorand = Egypt, Maztica = Incan lands, Kara-Tur = Oriental lands, and soon). Need I bring up enough history to indicate that during Europe's dark ages, knowledge of mathematics, medicine, and astronomy flourished in the middle east (which partially explains the Renaissance), to say nothing of the centuries of similar thought and study in China's vast civilizations or the rich Native American oral traditions?
Manic Man 07-23-07, 10:06 PM	That is the problem. It is completely unrealistic and silly. Magic isn't realistic too. You should houserule magic straight out as well. The main abuse by RAW, is it doesn't take four weeks or so to make items. But you add the spell fabricate and things just entered absurdly corny and cheesy. So the mage who spends 1 skill point on craft and uses fabricate is not corny nor cheesy? What does this do except make the mage spend 1 skill point?
criticalstriker 07-23-07, 10:28 PM	I think you would fail many, many, many times before you made a working item. To just say you're going to make a boat, ship, sword, composite bow, full plate armor, catapult, etc...and actually make it first attempt is "IMPOSSIBLE." Literally impossible, and I don't believe it makes any sense. I'm sorry, but its not impossible, improbable, but not impossible. I could, go outside and try to build a house. I would probably fail, but there is a chance I roll a nat 20 and succeed. The world is not as simple as possible or impossible. Pretty much everything has a chance to happen. There may only be a one in sixty billion chance for a meteorite to bore its way into my head when I walk outside, but its still a chance. Its not impossible.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 10:42 PM	I'm sorry, but its not impossible, improbable, but not impossible. I could, go outside and try to build a house. I would probably fail, but there is a chance I roll a nat 20 and succeed. The world is not as simple as possible or impossible. Pretty much everything has a chance to happen. There may only be a one in sixty billion chance for a meteorite to bore its way into my head when I walk outside, but its still a chance. Its not impossible. Skills do not auto-succeed on a natural 20 (or auto-fail on a natural 1, for that matter*, but that's beside the point). If your modifier +20 happens to beat the DC to craft a modern house, which I sincerely doubt, not even a natural 20 -- or, more likely, taking 20 -- can build one for you. * No, not even Use Magic Device. That part in its description says if you roll a 1 AND FAIL THE CHECK. It's possible to roll a 1 and succeed if you're really good at it.
criticalstriker 07-23-07, 11:03 PM	Skills do not auto-succeed on a natural 20 (or auto-fail on a natural 1, for that matter*, but that's beside the point). If your modifier +20 happens to beat the DC to craft a modern house, which I sincerely doubt, not even a natural 20 -- or, more likely, taking 20 -- can build one for you. * No, not even Use Magic Device. That part in its description says if you roll a 1 AND FAIL THE CHECK. It's possible to roll a 1 and succeed if you're really good at it. Maybe I should specify I meant a house from back then, in the D&D era. I highly doubt I could build a modern house, the wires, circuitry, and pretty much everything else would confound me. Most likely. Once again, there is a percentage chance(however small that may be), that I will succeed.
Nom 07-23-07, 11:32 PM	and the second by the increased cost needed to take 20 (which assumes you keep trying over and over again, failing all the time, until you finally manage to figure it out afterwards)Of course, taking 20 on a crafting project is usually a disaster, unless your modifier is high enough that a natural 1 can't fail by 5 or more. In which case, why the heck aren't you taking 10?
StruckingFuggle 07-24-07, 12:23 AM	I just think making armor, swords, bows, without having any knowledge of how makes it seem kind of impossible. Are you ... let's take something high up there, like plate mail or colossal scorpion venom poison. And imagine that someone has enough bonuses, likely straight intelligence and magical competence bonuses (hm), to make the rolls with no ranks. You really don't think that this genius, bulwarked by focused magic coming out the wazoo, couldn't pull it off? Really? That is the problem. It is completely unrealistic and silly. Monty Python like, imho. Kind of why I'm thinking about making a house rule. Maybe in the real world, but this isn't the real world we're dealing with.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 12:43 AM	First of all, there is no need to have such rude or hostile reaction to this. I'm just stating my opinion, that it seems odd that knowledge skills are trained but craft aren't. If you disagree that is fine, but there is no need to be condescending or outright hostile about it. For all the arguments about education and knowledge it seems silly then that someone could not make knowledge checks untrained. For the exact same reasons why they can make untrained craft skills. There is really no difference. Knowing a craft (blacksmith) or knowing a knowledge (law) for example would equally be available then as untrained checks. With education and such...why are they different?
ArcTan 07-24-07, 12:56 AM	Having a book explaining how to do it is a HUGE advantage people in a D&D setting wouldn't have. Also I find it hard to believe that you or others haven't looked online or at least caught the end of some home fixing (flipping) show. Not to mention you probably have at least a high school education. This means you'd have a lot of skills like math and such that would greatly aid you. How about a shop class? I honestly would say that none of this really represents skill points in Craft (carpentry). This is "general knowledge", in the same way that my saying "Hey, you know that bears hibernate in the winter, right?" doesn't mean I have points in Knowledge (nature), or my being able to clamber over a rock face with some difficulty doesn't mean I have points in Climb. The point is knowledge is easily transfered in our age. This is not the case in most D&D settings. So if you had never at least watched someone try crafting a sword, I find it highly unlikely you would by chance make a working sword. You could do it by trial and error with great difficulty and many failed starts over the course of many years. Indeed, this *has* to be what happened when whoever made the first sword made the first sword. I think you would fail many, many, many times before you made a working item. To just say you're going to make a boat, ship, sword, composite bow, full plate armor, catapult, etc...and actually make it first attempt is "IMPOSSIBLE." Literally impossible, and I don't believe it makes any sense. You do know how the Craft skills actually work, right?
StruckingFuggle 07-24-07, 12:56 AM	First of all, there is no need to have such rude or hostile reaction to this. I'm just stating my opinion, that it seems odd that knowledge skills are trained but craft aren't. If you disagree that is fine, but there is no need to be condescending or outright hostile about it. Whoa whoa whoa. :o Condescension, hostility? Rudeness? None of these were my intent. I didn't even think I was being so. In that case, I apologize. But my questions and points still remain, just phrased in a more polite way. :) Knowing a craft (blacksmith) or knowing a knowledge (law) for example would equally be available then as untrained checks. With education and such...why are they different? Actually, I think that's a much better argument for Knowledge being untrained than it is for Craft being trained... :p (keep in mind, at the same time, "trained only" basically means that all it takes is a single point to make this changover, between "I can make platemail just fine. Phenomenally, in fact" and "I can't make platemail at aaaaallll!" ... does that make sense? o.O)
Rolof 07-24-07, 12:58 AM	Most of the rules are about balance. Have you ever actually tried to create something with the craft rules? It gets very expensive, very quickly, especially if your skill isn't high enough to take 10, because failures ruin your materials. Sure, a character with no ranks can ATTEMPT to make plate mail, but the character is likely to fail miserably several times, resulting in the plate mail taking years to finish, and cost 10 times as much as just buying it. What that character CAN realistically do, is fashion a belt or some leather armor (probably stinky and rub their skin raw because not properly tanned), because it's a cheap item in game. This is fair, and balanced. And let's face it, how many characters actually take craft as a skill, unless for roleplaying purposes? Many characters don't have the points to spare, especially fighter types. One of the few craft skills I believe actually has a game mechanics reason to take, is trapmaking...there aren't many others. This rule is something I noticed right away in the game; when I first created my character (a ranger) I wanted him to be able to be totally independent, craft leatherworking for making his own shoes, buckskin style clothing, and waterskins, craft bowyer to make his own arrows, etc etc. Just to show his independent woods dwelling nature. But I quickly realized he didn't need the ranks to be able to do this, and that to make any of the things I wanted him to WELL, he'd have to make a heavy investment in points better spent on things like listen and spot. Even my DM said spending all those points on different crafts would be a waste, and he encourages roleplaying and appreciates the fact that I usually do so pretty well.
ArcTan 07-24-07, 12:59 AM	First of all, there is no need to have such rude or hostile reaction to this. I'm just stating my opinion, that it seems odd that knowledge skills are trained but craft aren't. If you disagree that is fine, but there is no need to be condescending or outright hostile about it. For all the arguments about education and knowledge it seems silly then that someone could not make knowledge checks untrained. For the exact same reasons why they can make untrained craft skills. There is really no difference. Knowing a craft (blacksmith) or knowing a knowledge (law) for example would equally be available then as untrained checks. With education and such...why are they different? Knowledge skills aren't really trained skills per se. Anyone can make a Knowledge check untrained if the DC is low enough. You can make Craft work this way too, but the difference is that continuing to think and think and think about the capital of Norway won't actually teleport that fact into my head unless I actually find out where the capital of Norway is by looking it up or something. Whereas, in the absence of all external knowledge, it *is possible* for me to learn how to make something by making one, throwing it out and trying to learn from my mistakes, again and again, until I get it right (taking 20). Like people have said, this *has to be* possible in order for Crafting skills to ever have developed in the first place.
RandomAction 07-24-07, 12:59 AM	Well the way I look at it is thus- craft is untrained for the reason that when 'growing up' one learns by either watching others or trial and error. A normal person can go out and make nails, horse-shoes and even a cutting weapon/item (axe or knife). These items will be of very poor quality, but still usable. However, a smith, who has ranks/is skilled, can do such things and make them look and work normally. I myself have made knives and axes, even though I have 0 ranks in thier respective craft skills. Yes, they looked terrible. I tend to look at the ranks in craft skills as time spent learning that particular craft. i.e. 0 ranks = regular Joe in need, 1 rank = novice/apprentice, 2 = student of the trade, 3 = compentent crafter, 4 = the start of your crafting career and so forth. By this judgement I would have 10 ranks in drywalling and 14 ranks in plumbing. Just my 2cp. ~RA~
jago668 07-24-07, 01:00 AM	Well you have to think realistically here. Some things are out of reach for a normal person to do untrained. However that doesn't stop you from trying. I mean I have 0 ranks in disable device, but I could sure "try" to disable one. Just like someone with 0 ranks in Craft - Armorsmithing could try to make Adamantine Full Plate. Smaller tasks one can easily imagine being done. I could make a knife pretty easily. It would be nowhere near as good as someone that makes knives for a living. That is the difference between trained and untrained. You could make untrained Craft - Carpentry checks to build a set of shelves. Trust me it isn't hard to do. Yet a master craftsman is going to do it faster, and better. That is all it is representing. Look at some of the DCs for crafting. A wooden spoon (5), and iron pot (10). You going to tell me if you were in a blacksmith's shop you couldn't figure out how to get a sheet of metal hot and hammer it into a pot? It would take you longer than a trained blacksmith, but I bet you could get it done. Look at Disable Device. It is trained only, but jamming a lock takes only a check of 5. I'm sure I could figure out how to jam a lock. Sabotage a wagon wheel is 15, but I'm reasonably sure I could figure that out also with enough time (ex Taking 10). Now disarming a complex trap (20) is a bit beyond me. That goes into the range of just hope it is like the movies and is the red wire. Or what about Sleight of Hand. You can try to palm something, but with no skill rank you probably aren't going to be successful, but you can try. So really it seems like common sense. Does it seem like something someone could reasonably attempt? Then let them try it even untrained. I mean it may take them longer to do it, but no reason not to at least let them try. If nothing else let them take a straight d20 roll. Sometimes better lucky than good.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 01:00 AM	Whoa whoa whoa. :o Condescension, hostility? Rudeness? None of these were my intent. I didn't even think I was being so. In that case, I apologize. I wasn't particularly targeting you with the rude or hostile comment. Was just getting that vibe from a few posters and not sure what the reason for it was. I think there is a big question as to why knowledge can not be used unless trained but crafting can. Basically knowing how to make an item, is really just knowledge of how it is made. So there is something odd to me that one can be done trained and the other can't. If anything you should be trained to do both, or can do both untrained. Simple as that. I thought it would be far more balanced to change craft to (trained), compared to making knowledge skills (untrained). But again this is my opinion about the RAW being a bit odd. I'm not starting a crusade to make you all change how you run your campaigns. I just think there is a bit of inconsistency in the rules as they are. If anything else I thought it would be a good topic to discuss.
ArcTan 07-24-07, 01:06 AM	I wasn't particularly targeting you with the rude or hostile comment. Was just getting that vibe from a few posters and not sure what the reason for it was. I think there is a big question as to why knowledge can not be used unless trained but crafting can. Basically knowing how to make an item, is really just knowledge of how it is made. Again, the "knowledge" involved in Craft can be learned by doing. This is not true of the knowledge involved in Knowledge (which signifies just *knowing* facts, not any actual ability). I mean, Climb involves knowledge, too, honestly. A 5.13 rockface is just plain impossible for me to climb (I probably would only have about 2 or 3 ranks in Climb if I were a D&D character). I don't even have a clue what *kind* of moves you'd have to pull off to climb certain rockfaces. However, assuming I didn't kill myself in the meantime, give me a few years to play around on a rockface and I could eventually teach myself. Getting better at climbing and understanding how climbing works is something you get with time just by doing it over and over again and challenging yourself. It's something you can start out doing a very easy version of and slowly work up to something harder. Same with building stuff. Knowledge skills, you understand, are not a skill used to *learn* things. They simply represent how much you *know* at any given time. Rolling a Knowledge check doesn't involve doing anything, just combing your memory. If the Knowledge skill were instead the Studying skill or the Research skill, I would agree with you, but it isn't.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 01:21 AM	Again, the "knowledge" involved in Craft can be learned by doing. This is not true of the knowledge involved in Knowledge (which signifies just *knowing* facts, not any actual ability). I mean, Climb involves knowledge, too, honestly. A 5.13 rockface is just plain impossible for me to climb (I probably would only have about 2 or 3 ranks in Climb if I were a D&D character). I don't even have a clue what *kind* of moves you'd have to pull off to climb certain rockfaces. However, assuming I didn't kill myself in the meantime, give me a few years to play around on a rockface and I could eventually teach myself. Getting better at climbing and understanding how climbing works is something you get with time just by doing it over and over again and challenging yourself. It's something you can start out doing a very easy version of and slowly work up to something harder. Same with building stuff. Knowledge skills, you understand, are not a skill used to *learn* things. They simply represent how much you *know* at any given time. Rolling a Knowledge check doesn't involve doing anything, just combing your memory. If the Knowledge skill were instead the Studying skill or the Research skill, I would agree with you, but it isn't. I guess I don't see much difference in some knowledge skills though. Common sense kind of falls into this. For example: Knowledge Religion gives you knowledge of undead. Now if I saw a skeleton, common sense might tell me that they aren't going to be hurt much by piercing weapons, not having any organs. Now through trial and error, like crafting I would learn from experience that this is true. Knowledge Architecture/Engineering...same thing. I can figure out from common sense that putting a rock ceiling on wood walls is probably not a good idea. Again from doing it I could self teach myself knowledge in this area. It is all relevant.
ArcTan 07-24-07, 01:53 AM	I guess I don't see much difference in some knowledge skills though. Common sense kind of falls into this. For example: Knowledge Religion gives you knowledge of undead. Now if I saw a skeleton, common sense might tell me that they aren't going to be hurt much by piercing weapons, not having any organs. By RAW, you can learn specific facts the same way you learn anything else. Knowledge merely represents the ability to "just know" something without specifically finding out (by having a general breadth of knowledge). A Knowledge skill is something you'd use to win a game like Jeopardy, where you get asked questions about unexpected topics. That doesn't mean you need a super-high Knowledge skill to go to the encyclopedia, open it up and look up the capital of Norway. Knowledge Architecture/Engineering...same thing. I can figure out from common sense that putting a rock ceiling on wood walls is probably not a good idea. Again from doing it I could self teach myself knowledge in this area. You might gain ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) by building stuff or going to college, sure. Neither of those represent *making a Knowledge check*. The difference is I can learn how to Climb simply by *making Climb checks* over and over, because Climb is a skill that means climbing. I can never learn anything about Skeletons by making a Knowledge check over and over, because Knowledge merely represents thinking about it.
StruckingFuggle 07-24-07, 01:54 AM	I thought it would be far more balanced to change craft to (trained), compared to making knowledge skills (untrained). But again this is my opinion about the RAW being a bit odd. I don't think that it's so much of a balance concern, personally. All it takes is one skill point, and in the case of craft - most classes have craft, so if you're gonna do it - is "you must spend one skill point, just one, for the capability" really much of a balancing factor? o.o I'm not starting a crusade to make you all change how you run your campaigns. I just think there is a bit of inconsistency in the rules as they are. Fair enough, fair enough. Working out the inconsistencies is a noble pursuit indeed. Or at least, generally it is one - specifically with dnd, sometimes its interesting, sometimes its like banging your head into a wall, and it's not always so noble. But still interesting sometimes. Personally, I'm not really sure why any of the skills should be trained only. Training, in the form of skill ranks, is the only way (beyond other massive resource expenditure) to become good at anything significant with a check anyway, isn't it?
rkun 07-24-07, 02:36 AM	You're telling me that someone who has never crafted a sword, or suit of armor, can simply grab some metal and hammer out a suit of full plate? yes, but it would take a long time (i believe a week is the lowest time it takes to make anything), especially a suit of full-plate. also i think you are forgeting that if someone fails by five or more (very likely if someone has 0 ranks and lets say a +2 int bonus) they ruin half the raw material and must start over. also it is not unreasonable to not let a player take 20 on a craft roll since a failure could have negetive effects (ruined materials). so by taking 10 somone with 0 ranks and a +2 int bonus would NEVER be able to make a siut of full-plate without magic or outside help of some sort. even if they have masterwork tools, taking 10 + 0-ranks + 2-int +2-mastertools = 14, full-plate has DC18. so they are down to the luck factor of rolling a 18 (15% chance of success), 16(25% chance) with the right tools, or 14(35% chance) with masterwork tools. also making a single success does not mean the character has actually created the item. lets say he does actually succeed on every check, it would take him between 46 - 37 checks = 46 - 37 weeks (just under a year).
Fireclave 07-24-07, 04:10 AM	I think there is a big question as to why knowledge can not be used unless trained but crafting can. Basically knowing how to make an item, is really just knowledge of how it is made. So there is something odd to me that one can be done trained and the other can't. If anything you should be trained to do both, or can do both untrained. Simple as that. I guess I don't see much difference in some knowledge skills though. Common sense kind of falls into this. For example: Knowledge Religion gives you knowledge of undead. Now if I saw a skeleton, common sense might tell me that they aren't going to be hurt much by piercing weapons, not having any organs. Now through trial and error, like crafting I would learn from experience that this is true. Knowledge Architecture/Engineering...same thing. I can figure out from common sense that putting a rock ceiling on wood walls is probably not a good idea. Again from doing it I could self teach myself knowledge in this area. Just wanted to note that knowledge skills can be used untrained...sort of. Without any training in a knowledge skill, a character knows only "common knowledge" and can answer "easy questions" (represented by a DC10 check), but this common knowledge extends across all of the knowledge skills. A character with no ranks in any knowledge skills will probably know that wizards cast arcane spells (knowledge arcane), the holy days of his diety (knowledge religion), approximately when his town was founded (knowledge local), who the local nobles of notable mention are (knowledge nobility and royalty), ect. Basically, any kernel of knowledge that you would expect someone to know without having to purposely study the subject would be DC10 common knowledge. Now the reason that you must have ranks in a knowledge skill to make more than a DC 10 check is because that DC 10 check is suppose to represent all the common knowledge that can be known without study. As soon as you get to a DC11 question, you need more than just a passing familiarity with the subject. To use a modern example (mostly because my brain left me with this as my only example before shutting down for the night), knowing that DNA is your genetic material might be a DC 10 knowledge check, and most people who know that probably picked up that knowledge from the evening news or ER, or something. But without actual ranks in Knowledge (Biology), the common person probably would not know that DNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid, or that it's made up pairs of four nucleotides, or that it code the protein that make your body work, or that teleomers protect your DNA from damage and may be related to your total lifespan. Now, your example with being able to figure out Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) from experience, common sense, and trail and error is perfectly valid. You can teach yourself knowledge skill just like you can teach yourself craft skills (like craft, someone had to do it first). And both are represented by the expenditure of additional skill points. As I said before, DC 10 represents knowledge known without study. But what better way to study Architecture and Engineering than by building a house, having it fall apart, learning from your mistakes, and doing it again (works in RL). Do that enough times, and internalize enough information, theories, and formulas, and you'll probably gain a rank in the skill. Finally, common sense and knowledge skills represented two separate, but related things. The knowledge skills represent a character's current, level of knowledge about a specific category of topics. Common sense is a character's ability to put knowledge, experience, and reasoning together (put 2 and 2 together) and come up with new ideas and innovations (to make 4). Apples and oranges here.
Becket 07-24-07, 08:55 AM	"One of the few craft skills I believe actually has a game mechanics reason to take, is trapmaking...there aren't many others." Practically every craft skill is needed by those with the Craft Construct feat, (or a druid begetting a bogun ... DC 12 basket weaving check ??? seriously, what druid spends points on craft: basket weaving?) On a different note, I don't have the exact quote, but I recall from the D20 modern setting, the explanation about what a trained skill is was about the computer use skill, it went something like, pretty much anyone in a developed nation can use a computer to type up a letter, check their email, or buy something from an online store, those who are trained in computer use have more advanced knowledge, one rank in the skill may represent someone who knows how to install a hard drive, or knows a smattering of a basic code, like c++ or html. I think thats a good measure of discerning common knowledge (that's a fairy, not an imp <-- easy knowledge nature or the planes, as many who'd been told folk stories even in a nonmagical world could tell) Another thing all together though, I've volunteered for habitat for humanity, (which is basically 10-30 totally untrained volunteers using aid another on a handfull of folks who are trained) I wouldn't say you could aid another on a knowledge check, on an intelligence check, maybe ... say, the party's wizard is trained in knowledge: arcana, and the party's cleric is trained in knowledge: religion, they might be able to put their heads together and puzzle out an infernal script about demonbinding, but I digress, if some amount of reasoning could result in a result, then it's probably dc 10 or lower, or should be able to be used untrained. If an intelligent rogue has a crossbow, and has the basic components to build one, and tools, he/she can deduce what parts of the wood need to whittled, where bolts go, how they attach, etc. The same could not be said for the same rogue trying to identify the coat of arms from a modest house kingdom's away, or telling a lich from a hevecua would be outside the providence of general knowledge. On a final note, the DMG suggests that about 3% of any given settlement's population will be an expert (dmg pg 139), while a commoner in a D&D village may be trained in craft, even a small town will have at least 30 adepts, the highest level f which will be 3d4+community modifier, (in this case +2), this will be the guy making masterwork suits of full plate, while even in the smallest of thorpes, you'll probably have at least one expert, with a warrior apprentice or two to deal with easy DC goods. So, in our small town, we can expect there to be a level 7-9 expert there somewhere, who'll probably be trained in several complimentary craft skills (they get 6 skill points per level, and get to choose any 10 skills as class skills) complimentary crafts would probably be such as, profession:metallurgist, craft armorsmithing, craft:weaponsmithing, craft blacksmithing ... or maybe masonry, carpentry, and I dunno ... basketweaving to help the local druids. It's totally possible for said expert to have a +15 to +20 or more on craft checks between 10ish ranks, good tools, intelligence, possibly skill focus, and maybe a few employees who aid another him. so, even an average small town has a crafter able to easily create masterwork items, and as his apprentices gain exp over the years, they too will advance from carving components, making metal bits, then lanterns, and working up though ringmail, banded mail, eventually he too will be making fine plate.... I mean MW Full Plate =)