Craft (trapmaking) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Craft (trapmaking) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rustmonster
07-05-07, 01:22 PM Anyone who uses D&D Minis will probably also know about the new kobold trapmaker figure. When I saw this little guy, I said "Holy crap! Something a kobold is good for other than a sorcerer!" So I wanted to make a kobold trapmaker as a PC. But as I looked at the Craft skill further, I ran into problems. Big problems.

One the RPG stat card of the kobold trapmaker, it is a level 4 expert. I decided I would be a Rouge instead, but still focus on trapmaking. I assumed that they made him level 4 for a reason, so I figured out how much Craft (trapmaking) my character would have at level 4. I found out that with ranks and masterwork tools, a +3 to INT, plus skill focus for trapmaking, plus kobold racial +2 to trapmaking, I had a total 17 in trapmaking. If I take ten, that's 27. Next, I looked at the price for a basic arrow trap (proximity trigger, manual reset, +10 rng atk, (1d6/x3), 2000gp cost). It has a DC of 20 to craft. 27*20=540. then, I divided 20000 (cost of trap in silver peices) by 540. And then I was disgusted.

37 weeks. 259 days. Almost 9 months. To make a trap that shoots one arrow, then becomes useless until you go up to it and reset it.

No. That couldn't be right. But alas, it was.

Then, just to spite the system, I made an absolutly freaked out, max kobold trapmaker, level 20 with a 47 in trapmaking because of INT bonuses and ranks and all the other factors I listed. 57 on take 10. I could increase the DC to 30 to speed things up. 1710 sp of progress every week.

20000/1710= 11.7 weeks. 82 days. 2.7 months. He can make 4 arrow traps a year. CR 1. He's been training all his life, and to make a peice of trash like this it takes him 82 days. I don't want to have to roll up another kobold sorcerer.

Then, just for fun, I saw how much time it takes to make a Poisoned spike pit trap. CR 10. Price: 19,700gp. DC is 30, so I bump it up to 40. 57*40= 2280sp progresse every week.

197,000/2280= 86.4 weeks. 605 days. 20 months. 1.6 years. To make a hole with poisoned spikes at the bottom. At level 20. With the most broken bonuses I could think of. Dungeons are usually full of these type of things. But they take over a year and a half to make!

Of course, this is the problem that arises when you base how quickly something is made on an arbitrary cost set to it. The world of D&D starts to seem less and like a huge world where I am only a part, but a world where absolutly everthing is based around me. That smith didn't make the masterwork longsword himself. It takes him almost 5 weeks of work to make one, yet I just have to ask for one and *poof* there it is. What if my whole party wants one? He doesn't say "well, with me and my associate working on it, it'll take about 10 weeks." He says "sure" and *poof* 4 masterwork longswords.

I know that one of the reasons they made crafting so time consuming is so that you couldn't just sell all of your stuff for a profit every week. But I'm not soem stupid munckin trying to "win", I'm trying to make an interesting and enjoyable character. It makes some ideas (like a kobold trapmaker PC) completly unusable under the standard rules. There needs to be some drastic reworking of this skill to make it useful.

Any thoughts on the matter? Any ideas? Did I miss something? Is it actually NOT as bad as I think it is?
tarkin
07-05-07, 01:57 PM 1. You can speed things up a some by taking the +10 to DC

2. You can speed things up an awful lot if you have access to Favricate. You are a Rogue. Buy and read a scroll.

3. Yes, building expensive things takes a lot of time. Welcome to the real world.

4. The game is not designed to help you build things quickly. It is generally assumed to be done 'out of game'. For in game uses, generally they assume you will use a spell like Fabricate.
Rustmonster
07-05-07, 02:12 PM 1. You can speed things up a some by taking the +10 to DC

2. You can speed things up an awful lot if you have access to Favricate. You are a Rogue. Buy and read a scroll.

3. Yes, building expensive things takes a lot of time. Welcome to the real world.

4. The game is not designed to help you build things quickly. It is generally assumed to be done 'out of game'. For in game uses, generally they assume you will use a spell like Fabricate.

1. I factored in the +10 DC where I could.

2. Where is fabrictae from?

3. Thank you for that extremly unhelpful comment. The one problem is that it makes no sense that making something that costs more but isn't really anymore complicated takes more time just because. Case in point, ditherbomb. It's a container with volatile liquid. There are three kinds, weak, strong and wyrm. Wyrm takes exponentially longer to make then weak, although they are just liquid in a container. They are almost the same thing. Yes, it takes a while to make the liquid, but I'm estimating it at around 15 weeks to make. It can't POSSIBLY take that long to make the mixture. Otherwise, no one would make them, as they are too time consuming. I mean, they blow up and then they're gone. 105 days just for it to kill maybe 2, maybe 5 max enemies.

4. Yes, but NPCs are always "out of game". So shouldn't it take 5 weeks to make a masterwork longsword for them? It doesn't appear that they have to use Craft, they are just assumed to have it made already, which is stupid, especially for stuff like a masterwork spike chain, or they can somehow make it in a day or so.

I'm not sure you read my entire post, as some of your response seems just the generic response to craft threads. If you read it fully, you would have seen that I had used the add +10 to DC when I could.
Dalthbar
07-05-07, 03:08 PM Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) is right out of the PHB and a very useful spell when it comes to crafting.
Rustmonster
07-05-07, 03:17 PM Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) is right out of the PHB and a very useful spell when it comes to crafting.

Hmmm, so with this I can just poof it into being with a craft check? Sounds interesting. I'm gonna do me some more research.
BW0222
07-05-07, 04:49 PM Rustmonster

If I take ten, that's 27. Next, I looked at the price for a basic arrow trap (proximity trigger, manual reset, +10 rng atk, (1d6/x3), 2000gp cost). It has a DC of 20 to craft. 27*20=540. then, I divided 20000 (cost of trap in silver peices) by 540. And then I was disgusted.

37 weeks. 259 days. Almost 9 months. To make a trap that shoots one arrow, then becomes useless until you go up to it and reset it.

Hire two 1st-level assistants who have 4 ranks, +2 int, skill focus, and give them masterwork tools. Rolling a 1, they get a 10 and can always assist you. That is now a 31 on your check. Increase the DC by 10 and you do 900sp/week and the job only takes 22 weeks -- you just saved 40% of your time.

Hire five more assistants, and you get a +41. Raise the DC by another 10, and you get it done in 12 weeks. Add a magic item which gives you a skill bonus, an int boost item, etc., etc. time drops exponentially.

Heck, hire am entire kobold tribe.

Or... do the same thing as if you wanted a masterwork suit of full plate and didn't want to wait 9 months for it to be made... i.e. just pay the extra coin and buy it.

But I'm not soem stupid munckin trying to "win", I'm trying to make an interesting and enjoyable character. It makes some ideas (like a kobold trapmaker PC) completly unusable under the standard rules. There needs to be some drastic reworking of this skill to make it useful.

That is based on the faulty assumption that all skills need to be useful for adventuring PCs. They don't. There are many skills in the game which are pretty much useless for adventurers. Few PCs die because they can't make the perfect lamb stew, paint a mural, lay bricks, etc. In ultra rare cases they might help with an important appraise check, helping with posing as someone else, earning money when you are dirt poor in a low-adventure setting, etc. but in most cases, they just aren't as useful as "adventuring" skills.

For NPCs these skills can be useful to earn money, but only because they don't have "easier" ways to earn coin through adventuring.

Craft (trapmaking) just happens to be one of those non-adventuring skills. You can't use it in any practical way to use it to take down ogres, trolls, or armies of skeletons any more than you can with profession (seamstress).

I'm sorry that this skill doesn't help adventurers. However, that isn't an issue with the mechanic, it is just a fact that the skill isn't useful. I see no reason to alter the mechanic to make it useful, anymore than I see altering other rules to make craft (painting) or profession (seamstress) useful.

In the end, don't take skills which aren't useful for adventures and then complain that the skills aren't useful for adventurers.
primemover003
07-05-07, 05:48 PM What Complete Adventurer missed (and Complete Scoundral???) is a system for making simple mechanical traps especially traps made for the wilderness: Tripwires, shallow spiked pits, snares, etc. This is something every Rogue, Ranger, and Scout should have in their bag of tricks.

There was a 3rd party PrC called trapmaster that had a class ability that allowed traps to be made in a hurry. The DC's were basically the trap's CR+10 and it took CR*10 in gp and minutes to Craft. Now this wouldn't be bad for simple wilderness traps, but the craft rules need to be tweaked.
primemover003
07-05-07, 05:49 PM the heck??
Scion of Coldshard
07-05-07, 06:04 PM The costs of many/most/all of the traps are in need of some serious tweaking. It looks like they were trying to take one price and make it fit into any and every situation, but that just isnt the case.

It should be basic trap cost, based on the abilities of the trap, and then there should be another cost based on where you are trying to put it and another cost based on how hard it is to find.

That way someone could have a little premade 'trap kit' for sale, it could be bought by however is going to be making the structure it will be housed in, and then someone could go through afterwards and fix up the area so it is difficult to detect.

If you are forced to use the prices listed then dont use the arrow trap, use the fusillade of darts. It costs 1/4 of the price of the arrow trap and does way more damage. It is easier to search for, but who cares, you can make 4 of the suckers for the price of a single arrow trap and each one can do up to 8x as much damage.
dman11235
07-05-07, 07:35 PM I'm suprised no one has said this yet: the PrC from Dungeonscape called the Trapsmith. Useful, but simple, traps as varying actions, ranging from standard to one minute, or so. Oh, and they can cast fabricate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rustmonster 07-05-07, 01:22 PM	Anyone who uses D&D Minis will probably also know about the new kobold trapmaker figure. When I saw this little guy, I said "Holy crap! Something a kobold is good for other than a sorcerer!" So I wanted to make a kobold trapmaker as a PC. But as I looked at the Craft skill further, I ran into problems. Big problems. One the RPG stat card of the kobold trapmaker, it is a level 4 expert. I decided I would be a Rouge instead, but still focus on trapmaking. I assumed that they made him level 4 for a reason, so I figured out how much Craft (trapmaking) my character would have at level 4. I found out that with ranks and masterwork tools, a +3 to INT, plus skill focus for trapmaking, plus kobold racial +2 to trapmaking, I had a total 17 in trapmaking. If I take ten, that's 27. Next, I looked at the price for a basic arrow trap (proximity trigger, manual reset, +10 rng atk, (1d6/x3), 2000gp cost). It has a DC of 20 to craft. 2720=540. then, I divided 20000 (cost of trap in silver peices) by 540. And then I was disgusted. 37 weeks. 259 days. Almost 9 months. To make a trap that shoots one arrow, then becomes useless until you go up to it and reset it. No. That couldn't be right. But alas, it was. Then, just to spite the system, I made an absolutly freaked out, max kobold trapmaker, level 20 with a 47 in trapmaking because of INT bonuses and ranks and all the other factors I listed. 57 on take 10. I could increase the DC to 30 to speed things up. 1710 sp of progress every week. 20000/1710= 11.7 weeks. 82 days. 2.7 months. He can make 4 arrow traps a year. CR 1. He's been training all his life, and to make a peice of trash like this it takes him 82 days. I don't want to have to roll up another kobold sorcerer. Then, just for fun, I saw how much time it takes to make a Poisoned spike pit trap. CR 10. Price: 19,700gp. DC is 30, so I bump it up to 40. 5740= 2280sp progresse every week. 197,000/2280= 86.4 weeks. 605 days. 20 months. 1.6 years. To make a hole with poisoned spikes at the bottom. At level 20. With the most broken bonuses I could think of. Dungeons are usually full of these type of things. But they take over a year and a half to make! Of course, this is the problem that arises when you base how quickly something is made on an arbitrary cost set to it. The world of D&D starts to seem less and like a huge world where I am only a part, but a world where absolutly everthing is based around me. That smith didn't make the masterwork longsword himself. It takes him almost 5 weeks of work to make one, yet I just have to ask for one and poof there it is. What if my whole party wants one? He doesn't say "well, with me and my associate working on it, it'll take about 10 weeks." He says "sure" and poof 4 masterwork longswords. I know that one of the reasons they made crafting so time consuming is so that you couldn't just sell all of your stuff for a profit every week. But I'm not soem stupid munckin trying to "win", I'm trying to make an interesting and enjoyable character. It makes some ideas (like a kobold trapmaker PC) completly unusable under the standard rules. There needs to be some drastic reworking of this skill to make it useful. Any thoughts on the matter? Any ideas? Did I miss something? Is it actually NOT as bad as I think it is?
tarkin 07-05-07, 01:57 PM	1. You can speed things up a some by taking the +10 to DC 2. You can speed things up an awful lot if you have access to Favricate. You are a Rogue. Buy and read a scroll. 3. Yes, building expensive things takes a lot of time. Welcome to the real world. 4. The game is not designed to help you build things quickly. It is generally assumed to be done 'out of game'. For in game uses, generally they assume you will use a spell like Fabricate.
Rustmonster 07-05-07, 02:12 PM	1. You can speed things up a some by taking the +10 to DC 2. You can speed things up an awful lot if you have access to Favricate. You are a Rogue. Buy and read a scroll. 3. Yes, building expensive things takes a lot of time. Welcome to the real world. 4. The game is not designed to help you build things quickly. It is generally assumed to be done 'out of game'. For in game uses, generally they assume you will use a spell like Fabricate. 1. I factored in the +10 DC where I could. 2. Where is fabrictae from? 3. Thank you for that extremly unhelpful comment. The one problem is that it makes no sense that making something that costs more but isn't really anymore complicated takes more time just because. Case in point, ditherbomb. It's a container with volatile liquid. There are three kinds, weak, strong and wyrm. Wyrm takes exponentially longer to make then weak, although they are just liquid in a container. They are almost the same thing. Yes, it takes a while to make the liquid, but I'm estimating it at around 15 weeks to make. It can't POSSIBLY take that long to make the mixture. Otherwise, no one would make them, as they are too time consuming. I mean, they blow up and then they're gone. 105 days just for it to kill maybe 2, maybe 5 max enemies. 4. Yes, but NPCs are always "out of game". So shouldn't it take 5 weeks to make a masterwork longsword for them? It doesn't appear that they have to use Craft, they are just assumed to have it made already, which is stupid, especially for stuff like a masterwork spike chain, or they can somehow make it in a day or so. I'm not sure you read my entire post, as some of your response seems just the generic response to craft threads. If you read it fully, you would have seen that I had used the add +10 to DC when I could.
Dalthbar 07-05-07, 03:08 PM	Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) is right out of the PHB and a very useful spell when it comes to crafting.
Rustmonster 07-05-07, 03:17 PM	Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) is right out of the PHB and a very useful spell when it comes to crafting. Hmmm, so with this I can just poof it into being with a craft check? Sounds interesting. I'm gonna do me some more research.
BW0222 07-05-07, 04:49 PM	Rustmonster If I take ten, that's 27. Next, I looked at the price for a basic arrow trap (proximity trigger, manual reset, +10 rng atk, (1d6/x3), 2000gp cost). It has a DC of 20 to craft. 27*20=540. then, I divided 20000 (cost of trap in silver peices) by 540. And then I was disgusted. 37 weeks. 259 days. Almost 9 months. To make a trap that shoots one arrow, then becomes useless until you go up to it and reset it. Hire two 1st-level assistants who have 4 ranks, +2 int, skill focus, and give them masterwork tools. Rolling a 1, they get a 10 and can always assist you. That is now a 31 on your check. Increase the DC by 10 and you do 900sp/week and the job only takes 22 weeks -- you just saved 40% of your time. Hire five more assistants, and you get a +41. Raise the DC by another 10, and you get it done in 12 weeks. Add a magic item which gives you a skill bonus, an int boost item, etc., etc. time drops exponentially. Heck, hire am entire kobold tribe. Or... do the same thing as if you wanted a masterwork suit of full plate and didn't want to wait 9 months for it to be made... i.e. just pay the extra coin and buy it. But I'm not soem stupid munckin trying to "win", I'm trying to make an interesting and enjoyable character. It makes some ideas (like a kobold trapmaker PC) completly unusable under the standard rules. There needs to be some drastic reworking of this skill to make it useful. That is based on the faulty assumption that all skills need to be useful for adventuring PCs. They don't. There are many skills in the game which are pretty much useless for adventurers. Few PCs die because they can't make the perfect lamb stew, paint a mural, lay bricks, etc. In ultra rare cases they might help with an important appraise check, helping with posing as someone else, earning money when you are dirt poor in a low-adventure setting, etc. but in most cases, they just aren't as useful as "adventuring" skills. For NPCs these skills can be useful to earn money, but only because they don't have "easier" ways to earn coin through adventuring. Craft (trapmaking) just happens to be one of those non-adventuring skills. You can't use it in any practical way to use it to take down ogres, trolls, or armies of skeletons any more than you can with profession (seamstress). I'm sorry that this skill doesn't help adventurers. However, that isn't an issue with the mechanic, it is just a fact that the skill isn't useful. I see no reason to alter the mechanic to make it useful, anymore than I see altering other rules to make craft (painting) or profession (seamstress) useful. In the end, don't take skills which aren't useful for adventures and then complain that the skills aren't useful for adventurers.
primemover003 07-05-07, 05:48 PM	What Complete Adventurer missed (and Complete Scoundral???) is a system for making simple mechanical traps especially traps made for the wilderness: Tripwires, shallow spiked pits, snares, etc. This is something every Rogue, Ranger, and Scout should have in their bag of tricks. There was a 3rd party PrC called trapmaster that had a class ability that allowed traps to be made in a hurry. The DC's were basically the trap's CR+10 and it took CR*10 in gp and minutes to Craft. Now this wouldn't be bad for simple wilderness traps, but the craft rules need to be tweaked.
primemover003 07-05-07, 05:49 PM	the heck??
Scion of Coldshard 07-05-07, 06:04 PM	The costs of many/most/all of the traps are in need of some serious tweaking. It looks like they were trying to take one price and make it fit into any and every situation, but that just isnt the case. It should be basic trap cost, based on the abilities of the trap, and then there should be another cost based on where you are trying to put it and another cost based on how hard it is to find. That way someone could have a little premade 'trap kit' for sale, it could be bought by however is going to be making the structure it will be housed in, and then someone could go through afterwards and fix up the area so it is difficult to detect. If you are forced to use the prices listed then dont use the arrow trap, use the fusillade of darts. It costs 1/4 of the price of the arrow trap and does way more damage. It is easier to search for, but who cares, you can make 4 of the suckers for the price of a single arrow trap and each one can do up to 8x as much damage.
dman11235 07-05-07, 07:35 PM	I'm suprised no one has said this yet: the PrC from Dungeonscape called the Trapsmith. Useful, but simple, traps as varying actions, ranging from standard to one minute, or so. Oh, and they can cast fabricate.