Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bagheer 02-27-07, 10:17 AM	I am trying to figure out what the rules are for creating works of art using the craft skill. I already figure that the time it takes will be based on desired value, just like any item, but I am not sure what the target number would be or the amount of time per medium. After all, it takes less time to craft a 100k valued work of art then a magical sword, but the success rate would probably be significantly less. Also, does any one have any suggestions for spontaneous works of genius/idiocy? What I am looking for is a house rule to help explain how it is that occasionally an artist creates a great work in significantly less time, or spends a year on something that will never sell for more then a couple hundred. Thank you, Baggy.
tarkin 02-27-07, 01:48 PM	The system is not designed for Art and honestly should not be used. Art is priced mainly on your reputuation and scarcity, with only secondary considerations to acutal value. If I were to try to work art creation into D20, I would start off with the Performance skill, not the Craft Skill.
BW0222 02-27-07, 03:13 PM	Bagheer, I am trying to figure out what the rules are for creating works of art using the craft skill. Same as making anything else. You set the DC, you pay 1/3 the value in raw materials, and each week you roll (or take a 10). If your check meets or exceeds the DC, you do your roll * the DC in sp towards the item. Example, craft (painting) at +13. You wish to make a 100gp painting. DM assumes it is superior quality (DC 20). You pay 33gp, and (assuming you take a 10), you get (10+13)*20 = 460sp = 46gp of process each week. You finish the painting in just over two weeks. After all, it takes less time to craft a 100k valued work of art then a magical sword, but the success rate would probably be significantly less. By the rules, making a 100k work of art would be next to impossible. Even at +30 to your craft check, taking a 10 against an exceptional quality item (DC 30) would only net you 30*30 = 900sp = 90gp of process per week. A 100k item would take 21 years. Also, does any one have any suggestions for spontaneous works of genius/idiocy? What I am looking for is a house rule to help explain how it is that occasionally an artist creates a great work in significantly less time, or spends a year on something that will never sell for more then a couple hundred. Art in middle-ages Europe didn't have much value. The value in the items was almost entirely in the value of the materials the item was make of. As such, in D&D, I think you need to break items down into two categories. First, art make from materials of non-intrinsic value. A nice dress, a painting, a tapestry, glassware, etc. Such items could easily be worth more than their base materials, as a great deal of work goes into them, but not that much more. Labor was cheap and you could always just hire your own folks make another if necessary. I think the D&D craft system isn't that bad in representing such things. They are typically in the range of a few hundred gold pieces and worth no more than three times the value of the raw materials. Second, are items make of materials of intrinsic value. Golden idols, silver goblets, jewelry, find silk dresses, etc. Such items would be of great value, but not that much more. Honestly, in the middle ages, folks would happily melt down golden items and take apart jewelry. Craftmenship was not like it is in modern times. Ultra high quality gem cutting, find jewlery, etc. Tools and crafting techniques just we not there -- and the raw materials were typically so rare that no one actually did this. As such, these items were more like trade goods. There value do not typically increase based on what happens with the raw materials, just what the materials are. Say such items stay within 20% of the value of their raw materials. If you use this, say you have some diamonds and silver worth 10,000gp. You then make a necklace out of it. Assume that the crafting rules represent the workmanship of the setting itself. With a +20 and DC 30, a skilled craftman might increase the value of the raw material by say 2,000gp. Taking 22 weeks and 666gp in used materials (1/3 the 2,000gp increase). At ultra-high valued jewelry (and other items), say 50K, chances are you won't increase the value of the raw materials that much... again this is expected because folks can easily just take the jewelry apart and make something else out of it.
Bagheer 02-28-07, 10:58 AM	First let me thank both of you, as you made me realize the error of what I was thinking. If you do not mind, I would like to explain my thoughts and comment on a few things said by both of you, and explain how they helped me get to what my idea is. Please excuse me if I ramble on a little as I am brainstorming as I write. First let me start here: Art in middle-ages Europe didn't have much value … I would start off with the Performance skill, not the Craft Skill This is sort of correct with way art is handled in the real world. Historically art had a very high value in the middle ages as it would cost significantly more to have a painting, or a statue commissioned. (As you would have to house, feed and see to the care of the artist.). This reply made me stop and think about all the art that I saw in Italy from that time period and realized that valuable art was never produced and then sold, but rather, a real artist would seek employment as an artist. The employer was usually the church, or a noble that wanted his friends, family or mistress painted for their glorification. Either way art was intended to serve a purpose. So you are correct because, art was rarely if ever sold after creation and therefore never had an investment value. The value of the piece of art was determined before the work was ever started. So I agree I too would start off with the performance skill, in order to gain employment as an artist, if that was what the character was to do. This might make for interesting ways to spend down time that happens between stories. I would also grant a synergy bonus to the performance check based off the craft skill, and the artist’s reputation. Second point: Art is priced mainly on your reputuation and scarcity, with only secondary considerations to acutal value. There was never more truer a statement. The value of the work would be determined by how much of a commission he could gain before the work was created. I would then lower the cost of materials but raise the difficulty for a work of art. A failure to finish the work by a specific time would lower the artist’s reputation and lower both this commission and future ones. A botch would indicate a loss of commission, and a significant hit to reputation. Lastly, if the world were around long enough (in other words several games that build off on another), the value of a piece would be equal to the difficulty of the piece plus the “value” of the artist’s reputation at their height then multiplied by the number of decades, since the artist died. Or something similar. Thank both of you very much. Please let me know what you think.
BW0222 02-28-07, 03:00 PM	Bagheer, First let me start here: Quote: Originally Posted by BW0222 Art in middle-ages Europe didn't have much value … I would start off with the Performance skill, not the Craft Skill I never said the later. That was tarkin. :) Historically art had a very high value in the middle ages as it would cost significantly more to have a painting, or a statue commissioned. (As you would have to house, feed and see to the care of the artist.). This reply made me stop and think about all the art that I saw in Italy from that time period and realized that valuable art was never produced and then sold, but rather, a real artist would seek employment as an artist. The employer was usually the church, or a noble that wanted his friends, family or mistress painted for their glorification. Either way art was intended to serve a purpose. So you are correct because, art was rarely if ever sold after creation and therefore never had an investment value. The value of the piece of art was determined before the work was ever started. I think you are running the middle ages a bit too far. Rennosance art is a different matter. Middle ages is from say 500-1500AD and centered around 1000AD. Comparitively little high end art was produced during that time period. Most art consisted of valuable items or materials fashioned into items. Few items grossly exceeded material + labor costs by any sort of order of magnitude. Paintings, fine china, expensively carved furnature, were all mighty rare back then. Leave Europe and you get a different story. Please let me know what you think. Personally, I say stay with the core rules. You can't make money out of nothing in D&D. There are reasons for this. That fact that you can't make 30K of materials turn into 100K worth of valuables without an insane expendature of time, is likely good. Minor changes aren't going to change this enough to make any difference. Economics in D&D are pretty simple. It's likely best if you keep it that way. Trade goods are trade goods. Except in rare cases -- which items have religious, historical, or cultural significance (and typically old) -- items shoudn't be valued much more than materials + labor cost. Especially as it just likely start causing issues when the DM has to make subjective rulings about the value of item.
Bagheer 02-28-07, 07:17 PM	Sorry looks like I got the quote tags backwards. First time using them and all. Do you mind if I debate a minor point dealing with history. My intent is not to flame or insult but to simply discus the effects of viewing history through the lens of D&D. You are right that an artist was not paid much in the way of cash. If for instance you take Limbourg brothers. They were promised about a small amount of gold at the completion of their project. An illuminated book prayer called Tresichehours. In DnD terms I would say 10 gold pieces apiece, at most. But also during that time, they were given room, board and fine clothing so the total amount earned was much more. My goal is not to make money out of nothing but to find something more interesting for my character to do during down time besides “train.” Thank you again, Baggy.
BW0222 03-01-07, 01:24 PM	Bagheer, Sorry looks like I got the quote tags backwards. First time using them and all. No problem. Do you mind if I debate a minor point dealing with history. My intent is not to flame or insult but to simply discus the effects of viewing history through the lens of D&D. No. Provided that we keep in mind that D&D is a simulation of a fantasy world which never existed. Most of the rules are for game play reasons. :-) D&D isn't simulating the real middle-ages. You are right that an artist was not paid much in the way of cash. If for instance you take Limbourg brothers. They were promised about a small amount of gold at the completion of their project. An illuminated book prayer called Tresichehours. In DnD terms I would say 10 gold pieces apiece, at most. But also during that time, they were given room, board and fine clothing so the total amount earned was much more. Again, that is towards the later period of the middle-ages. However, lets look at that in D&D terms... Say, what they created was worth 2000gp (at the time it was created). It's value is pretty close to raw materials + creation cost. In D&D terms, it might take them a half year to make. However, if you add up what the noble spend to make it... 666gp raw materials, 300gp (six months at 1gp a day for a skilled craftman), 300gp (5sp per day each for food and logging), 200gp for several sets of clothing and other living expenses, etc. and it comes out pretty close to 1500-2000gp. This makes sense. If it was worth too much more anyone wanting it would merely hire folks to make another. Only really special items -- of historic, religious, etc. significance -- would be valued much higher -- since only those items could not to reproduced. The books would be priceless today. However, that is due to the fact that they are over 500 years old. At the time, folks would not have valued them much more than what it would cost them to replace. My goal is not to make money out of nothing but to find something more interesting for my character to do during down time besides “train.” The normal craft rules allow this. I've got a character with craft (painting). Every few weeks I give my DM an example of something my character is painting. I spend 30gp and end up with a 90gp painting in a few weeks. I don't do it because it is makes money at the same rate as adventuring, business, investments, etc. Honestly, D&D is centered around adventuring. Crafting is likely to be considered a hobby or 'adventuring' trade. I don't see how using/adding perform ranks changes this. I don't see much reason to change it.
Bagheer 03-02-07, 11:15 AM	BW0222, Provided that we keep in mind that D&D is a simulation of a fantasy world which never existed. Most of the rules are for game play reasons. :-) D&D isn't simulating the real middle-ages. You are correct, I only use history as it is the only experience we have to base the way in which things would have happened. Honestly, D&D is centered around adventuring. Crafting is likely to be considered a hobby or 'adventuring' trade. I don't see how using/adding perform ranks changes this. I don't see much reason to change it. I wouldn’t use performance ranks unless I wanted to role-play out getting a job, and then I would allow for either the use of performance and/or diplomacy. And I would (as a GM) make getting the job part of a bigger adventure. Maybe the players need a noble to enter a specific part of town. That sort of thing. It is always fun to find interesting uses for little used skills. I sincerely thank you for your suggestions and your time. It has been a fun exercise in philosophy of game play, and I hope to do it again sometime. Baggy.
BW0222 03-02-07, 11:50 AM	Baggy, I wouldn’t use performance ranks unless I wanted to role-play out getting a job, and then I would allow for either the use of performance and/or diplomacy. It doesn't see much need to make a diplomacy check to get a job. Honestly, one goes to the market and asks around, puts up a few posters, heads into a jewelers shop, and talks with people. It is a pretty mundane activity. Players says he is looking for work as a painter, and you say "After a few hours of asking around (DC 5 gather information, please take a 10)... you find out that a painter is working on a small job in a house doing decorative trim around the windows and needs someone to finish the job while he looks after his wife who is expecting. You paint a few bits of trim and manage to convince him that you are acceptable for the job (DC 15 craft paint, please take a 10). Job lasts one week and you'll make 30gp out of it." Diplomacy is only really necessary to adjust ones attitude towards you. You don't need to be friends to hire someone and you start out indifferent. And of course, the PC could just go rent a room, buy the raw materials, pay 30gp in materials, paint a picture of an owl and go sell it at the market. Maybe you would rule that it might take him a couple of days to sell it, but some dealer would likely pick it up. And I would (as a GM) make getting the job part of a bigger adventure. Maybe the players need a noble to enter a specific part of town. That sort of thing. It is always fun to find interesting uses for little used skills. Unless there is a reason to expect that someone can't find work for their profession/trade, time is an issue, something will happen, etc. then I'm not sure this has to be heavily roleplayed. Unless there are in a small town, wilderness, etc. it isn't something which characters normally couldn't do. I don't see why a DM can't just make up who they are working for and the type of job... unless that character is trying to do something specific or is otherwise significant to them. You generally assume that they are out looking for whatever work they can find.