Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jarii246 05-17-07, 11:33 AM	Ok, when crafting full-plate DC=18, if you get a check of at least 18 you make progress, So it calculates like so crafting DC X Craft skill check= amount of progress for the week. 18 X 18 =324 The cost of Full Plate is 1500gp for a medium sized armor, convert that into silver= 15000sp. So, if you were to get the minimum on your check(18) to make progress it would take you 46.296296 repeating weeks to make one set of armor. Takes a while ehh? Now if you were to get an average Craft Skill Check of 30 it would take 27.77repeating weeks(30 X 18). Doesn’t it seem to be a ridiculous amount of time? I found this article from a web search: It’s VERY long but also very informational. Sight: http://wtimmins.tripod.com/lore/swords.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > How long does it take to make a sword? (One can add to this >list to include chain mail, plate, etc...yes, I'm curious about >these things...and/or sources of information on this stuff.) > Question: How much steel do you have and what form is it in? I can sit down with a bench-grinder and a piece of high-quality bar stock steel and produce a decent knife in a couple of hours (given some skill on my part). I presume that given bar-stock and a good grinder you can produce a sword in about 8 hours. Add another 4 hours to sharpen and hilt the thing and you've go a sword of sorts. If you are starting with iron ore, here's the sequence of operations. This assumes medieval/ancient technology. Smelt your ore - about2 days (with intermittent tending of the smelter). This requires a smelter and a hellatious amount of charcoal. Iron smelting is one of the reasons for the deforestation of Europe. Shape your metal - you now have a billet of crude iron (steel is produced in a reducing furnace, it is easy to get using modern techniques, it is very hard to get using ancient techniques. "Damascus" steel was especially prized, because it blended iron and steel in a "watered silk" pattern, that was both strong and flexible. Germany in the late Middle Ages was also able to produce good steel). Using a water or apprentice powered sledge hammer, beat the metal into the rough size and shape you want. This probably takes about 16-32 hours of work. Since the metal gets work hardened as you beat it you need to reheat it in a forge, otherwise it gets brittle. Shape your blade - you now have a number of billets of metal of approximately the right size and shape. For a cheap blade, these can be forged to shape (say about 4 hours) and then sharpened (say 4 hours). For a good "pattern welded" blade you create some steel by heating iron in a sealed box full of charcoal dust overnight. (8-12 hours). Then you forge weld the steel billets to the iron billets and twist the two billets together in a helix. Then you shape the twisted billet into a sword shape. You then forge-weld a steel edge to this "twisted" body on both sides of the body so that both edges join at the tip. Finally temper the whole thing, so the body is flexible and the edges are stiff and will take a good edge. Then you planish, fuller (put a "blood-groove" in) and shape the blade. This is process is tremendously time-consuming (say 3 days 24 hours work) and very tricky. High quality katanas had alternating billets of iron and steel folded and forge welded together all along the length of the sword. This process was repeated 7 times. It took/takes weeks! Finish your blade - File it to final shape and smoothness, polish it, engrave it (optional), sharpen it (4-8 hours for a western sword, 2 days - 2 weeks for a high-grade katana for sharpening, say 2 days to a week for shaping and polishing, any amount of time for engraving). Hilt It - Form pieces of wood around the tang of the blade, shape them to fit the hand, cast/forge quillons and pommel, assemble hilt, wrap grip with wire/velvet. (Say 4 hours to cast quillons and pommel from brass. Assuming you don't have to smelt the ore for the brass, 4 hours to planish and polish quillons and pommel. Add any amount of time to engrave, bejewel or inlay the quillons, pommel. Say 4 hours to cut and shape the wood to fit the tang of the sword. Add 1 hour to wrap the grip well, assuming that you don't have to make the wire/cloth). Sheath It - Measure sword. Cut Thin strips of wood and leather to fit. Sew leather around strips of wood. Decorate leather. Add metal fittings at tip and top of sheath. Add mounting points for straps and staps. Possibly make a sword belt to match. (8 hours for basic sheath, add any amount of time for engraving, tooling, etc. ) > I'm mostly interested in the time it would take to work up a >fairly crummy (Generic Orc Sword) sword up to a Very Nice Sword >(dunno...something the King of Erestial would swing about), and >whatever there is in-between. > Crummy Orc Sword - made from converted pieces of iron scavenged from wheel-rims, barrel hoops and the like. 8 hours from start to finish. Likely to break or bend against a good sword or good armor. (In Viking sagas there are scenes where combatants would back off and step on their swords to try to straighten them out! Even a good blade would have been considered shoddy by our standards!) Beautiful Sword, Fit For A King - 3 days to smelt, 1 week to forge, 3 days to planish and shape, 2-6 months to engrave. Pommel and quillons made after 13th day. 1 week to make a really pretty lost-wax mold for the pommel, quillons, scabbard chape (foot) and top. 2 days to cast all of that stuff from gold (for the sheath), brass or iron for the pommel or quillons (can't have them failing in combat!). 1 week to clean up the castings. 1 day to gold wash the pommel and quillons. 1 week to add gems to everything. Many gold and jeweled ornaments for the scabbard and the scabbard have been made simultaneously. This cuts down on the time. The scabbard is of thin brass, covered with beaten gold and jeweled gold ornaments. It takes up to a year to make, the sheath is lined with velvet. It takes 1 day to weave sufficient yardage. Total time = up to a year. It might be an only average blade but it looks "mahvelous!" Armor works on a similar set-up. If you have rolled sheet steel in the quality and thickness you want, premade rivets, premade patterns and modern tools you can create a medieval style helmet in 4-6 hours if you're good. Helmets with more complex curves (late medieval basinets and armlets) take a lot more time and greater skill because you have to hammer and then grind the various parts before you weld them together. (Say 3 days to a week with 8 hour days). The traditional method of "raising" a helmet is more complex. You have to shape the helmet out of a flat sheet of metal, annealing it at intervals so it doesn't crack from work stresses. You also have to start with a very thick sheet of steel to start with, since the top of the helm will be very thin by the time you have stretched the metal out to the bowl-like shape that you want. This probably takes about 1-2 weeks. After you've done the helmet, everything else is fairly simple. Using modern tools and materials you can create simple body and limb armor in about 4 hours per piece. Articulated Arm and Leg armor, Gauntlets and Foot Protection are a more complex, since they require that the small pieces that make up the knee, elbow and ankle joints mesh well and articulate easily, leaving no gaps. (Well made articulated armor should not rattle or squeak if it is fitted or padded well, instead the joints make a sort of "snik, snik" noise as the wearer walks.) They require 8-24 hours of work per peice. Of course, you can add tremendous amounts of time for engraving and fluting. (Fluting allows armor to be made stronger, using lighter metal). Emperor Maximillian I of the HRE had a suit of full plate armor made (with lots of fluting and engraving) which took a year to make. Henry VIII of England had a FULL suit of plate armor made for foot jousting (including plate protection for the insides of his elbows, the backs of his thighs, knees and butt that weren't usually protected by plate and a full closed-helm attached to a full gorget). It took about a year, and when it was done allegedly not even a pin could be pushed through at any of the joints. Chain mail was made from wire that was wound into springs, then cut into rings and joined to other rings using tiny rivets. It is not difficult to make, but is tremendously time consuming. Assume about 1 month (8 hours a day) to draw wire, wind it, cut it, punch it and join it, to make a jacket length coat of mail for a normal sized man. Padded cloth takes 1 day to make if you have prepared cloth and a sewing machine, plus patterns and a skilled seamstress. If you have to sew everything by hand it takes up to a week. Leather armor takes the same amount of time to make as cloth armor. Leather, impregnated with wax makes good cheap (at least in medieval times) armor. Assuming that you have patterns and leather, you can make any piece of "boiled leather" armor in about 2 hours per piece. A helmet is a bit trickier since you really want an iron or steel frame. This probably takes about 1 day to make, plus 4 hours to attach the hardened leather. Scale armor takes about 2 days to cut out leather scales (or punch out metal scales) and about 2 days to lace or sew together. By the way, a suit of full 14th c. plate armor, designed for battle (rather than jousting) weighed about 60-70 lbs. about the weight of a modern soldier's field pack. Moreover, the weight was distributed around the wearers body, making weight distribution more even. There are medieval accounts of a knight (William Marshall) climbing up the underside of a siege ladder, hand over hand in full armor (which would have been a full mail hauberk, closed helm, and mail leg protection at the time. Estimated weight 4-60 lb.). Also, every young knight was expected to able to vault into the saddle of his horse from any direction in full armor. In the SCA I have seen men in armor do somersaults and handstands in armor! Let's have no more B.S. about people in armor being overburdened inflexible tanks! Armor slows you down some, and you sweat like a pig while wearing it, but you are still fairly agile. Unfortunately, you can't see anything through the eye slots of a closed-faced helm. This is done off the top of my head, away from my books, so much of the info is probably not quite right. If you are interested in the subject, check out some books on medieval armor and weaponry. Anything by Ashdowne or Oakeshott is good. There are other good sources, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. If you want lots of info and lots more opinions post to rec.org.sca or sci.mil. Good Luck, Tom. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, it CAN take up to a year to make full-plate but that is only very intricate and specialized armor. Please tell me your thoughts and comments and what you have done to fix the Craft skill! Thanks!
jaelis 05-17-07, 12:36 PM	Please tell me your thoughts and comments and what you have done to fix the Craft skill! Yes, the craft rules aren't terribly realistic. My solution is to buy the fullplate at the store instead of crafting it myself.
RobbyPants 05-17-07, 12:47 PM	Yes, the craft rules aren't terribly realistic. My solution is to buy the fullplate at the store instead of crafting it myself. :rofl: LOL. Nice solution! I agree that they're just a simplistic formula inserted into all crafts, so as to keep one from being better than the others... Now, if this thread follows the path of previous craft threads, we should end up with two sets of people: Groups who claim to be expert weapon/armor smiths IRL that say that it takes 200 years to craft a suit of platemail. Groups who claim to be expert weapon/armor smiths IRL that say that they can pump out 20 suits of platemail a week.
Morray 05-17-07, 01:06 PM	Yes, the craft rules aren't terribly realistic. My solution is to buy the fullplate at the store instead of crafting it myself. Not realistic? I'm not sure I agree with that. Look how long it takes to make something by hand. While I don't know much about metal working, woodworking is rather intricate. It can take weeks to build something like a table or chair if you put detail into it. Ant that's with modern cutting tools. It's not just a simple cut here and hammer there though. There's the measureing, placement, sanding, etc. And unless you are skilled(hence the reason for points) you'd be lucky to ever get it done right. Full Plate isn't just one piece, it's several. You are basically making metal clothes. Another thing to think about, these are adventurers, they aren't meant to be making mass quantities of armor now are they. :)
Vegepygmy 05-17-07, 01:12 PM	So, it CAN take up to a year to make full-plate but that is only very intricate and specialized armor.D&D full plate is by definition very intricate and specialized armor: PHB, page 124 Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces. But yeah, the Crafting rules aren't perfect.
Optimator 05-17-07, 01:26 PM	Ugh, the crafting rules are sooo bad.
Chie 05-17-07, 09:49 PM	Not realistic? I'm not sure I agree with that. Look how long it takes to make something by hand. While I don't know much about metal working, woodworking is rather intricate. It can take weeks to build something like a table or chair if you put detail into it. Ant that's with modern cutting tools. It's not just a simple cut here and hammer there though. There's the measureing, placement, sanding, etc. And unless you are skilled(hence the reason for points) you'd be lucky to ever get it done right. Full Plate isn't just one piece, it's several. You are basically making metal clothes. Another thing to think about, these are adventurers, they aren't meant to be making mass quantities of armor now are they. :) Remember that a 'day' in terms of DnD crafting means eight hours of continuous work.Yes it takes a while to craft a really good table,but that's because an average person has other stuff to be doing than spending eight hours a day,everyday on it.Since your DnD character is spending eight hours a day on it,if it really takes him that long then he's fairly inept and probably shouldn't be doing it.
tarkin 05-17-07, 09:59 PM	1. The crafting rules are annoying. They take a long time to make expensive things. 2.However, this in realistic and historacially accurate. Platemail was in fact something that took well over 6 months to make, if you did it on your own. Players making it should be using Fabricate. But: 3. The game is not called Merchants and Craftsman. As such, you should be buying things mainly. An occasional manufacturing is OK, but don't expect to be the main focus of your character. It should be the secondary, not primary.
runestar 05-17-07, 11:21 PM	I guess intelligent undead make the best crafters then. They do not need to sleep, and thus can churn out stuff 3 times as fast as other races...:P
PiccaloJr 05-18-07, 12:00 AM	I guess intelligent undead make the best crafters then. They do not need to sleep, and thus can churn out stuff 3 times as fast as other races...:P Or Warforged from ECS. I dunno why that hasn't been brought up in other threads. 1. Leadship Feat 2. All Warforged Experts and Artificers. 3.?????? 4.PROFIT!!! ^_^
risner 05-18-07, 12:39 AM	Now if you were to get an average Craft Skill Check of 30 it would take 27.77repeating weeks(30 X 18). Doesn’t it seem to be a ridiculous amount of time? No, it isn't ridiculous, it is realistic from what I can tell. I've read 6+ months to make Full Plate and I've had friends that made their own Armour by hand without modern tech. All the times seem similar to the Skill Check duration. I guess intelligent undead make the best crafters then. They do not need to sleep, and thus can churn out stuff 3 times as fast as other races...:P I wouldn't allow that as a DM, since it opens the door to "I am wearing a ring of sustenance, I want to make 2 craft checks a day" hole. The way I read the craft checks, it seems clear to me that each check requires you spend no more than 8 hours a day on any crafting. So that alone would prohibit double or triple crafting by creatures that need no rest.
BW0222 05-18-07, 02:26 AM	Jarii246 [QUOTE Crafting, isn’t it a bit ridiculous time wise? [/QUOTE] Actually no. First, your 18x18 craft check is bizzare. Taking a 10, your total bonus is only +8? Anyone actually doing this as anything but a hobby would easily be well beyond +8. A 5th-level expert, with 8 ranks, +3 int, +3 skill focus, +2 masterwork tool would easily hit +16. Add a pair of assistants (3rd-level, 6 ranks, +2 intelligence, and +2 masterwork tools) who can't fail a DC 10 check to assist and your total is +20. Taking a 10, you get 30. You may voluntarily raise the DC of a task by 10 if you wish. Thus your weekly progress is 30x28 = 840 sp / week. A suit of full plate thus takes any reasonable armorer only 18 weeks. And higher level folks, dwarves, folks using magic, or shops with lots of assistants could cut this down even further. Second, such time isn't a bad approximation of performing such tasks. Manual labor is still slow. Keeping fires going, hauling firewood, arranging a time of year wood is available, sourcing materials, etc. all take time. Unlike today, if you need something, you can't just FedEx it over. If could take days just to get some firewood, weeks to arrange metals, etc., etc. Third, so what? Is there any reason in D&D that players can't wait four or six months for something? Most D&D characters don't die of old age and few campaigns even span a few years of in-game time.
StruckingFuggle 05-18-07, 04:15 AM	3. The game is not called Merchants and Craftsman. As such, you should be buying things mainly. An occasional manufacturing is OK, but don't expect to be the main focus of your character. It should be the secondary, not primary. That doesn't mean that crafting / manufacturing can't / shouldn't be fun. I mean, heck - look at World of Warcraft. But yeah, the system as is sucks like a really good and really big pressure inequality. Heh. If you're a wizard, guess what? Your crafting whatever takes - actually Fabricate doesn't have a listed crafting time, what the deuce? ... anyone else, be prepared to spend forever doing anything of complexity.
tyrecian 05-18-07, 04:32 AM	my players treat forges like giant warehouses, since the crafting rules are harsh, they get many crafters to put things together (like Plate Mail) quickly. A master crafstman can make the really tough peices, and other peices are less difficult. In this way, if the players pay enough it should be easy to get pretty much anything in one week. It might take a bunch of craftsmen (craftdwarves, whatever) but where there is a will there is a way. I prefer this method, i suppose, using the PCs craft check to give entrance into the wonderful world of convincing all these guys to go along with his ideas, and make him downtime himself for a week as well. 3 or 4 months downtime isnt really realistic when PCs get higher levels. They will simply be hunted down in time by every bandit that has heard of em. At least one encounter a month, and that is at any time during. Of course i havent ever had a PC in my campaigns try to make money by crafting. mostly they simply want some item from splat, and since i DM from core, they have to make it.... Otherwise the merechants dont sell it (i.e. Definitive harness, elven fullbalde, etc.)
Lotus Crane 05-18-07, 04:33 AM	I've mentioned it in other threads, but generally speaking, realism (by the standards of our world) is less important than internal consistency (within the fantastical world of D&D). I won't claim to be an expert on these things, but let's assume in the real world, a person who's competent at jumping can clear 5 feet as a standing high jump, and a person who's competent at smithing can craft a suit of full plate in 6 months. In D&D, if a person who's competent at jumping can clear 30 feet as a standing high jump, isn't it more internally consistent to expect a person who's competent at smithing to craft a suit of full plate in 1 month rather than in 6 months? It doesn't make sense for certain kinds of unrealistic things (magic, dragons) to be possible, but for others (superheroic melee, speed crafting) not to be. If any element of D&D is allowed to be "unrealistic," then all elements of D&D should be internally consistent by being equally "unrealistic."
OneWinged4ngel 05-18-07, 04:56 AM	Or Warforged from ECS. I dunno why that hasn't been brought up in other threads. 1. Leadship Feat 2. All Warforged Experts and Artificers. 3.?????? 4.PROFIT!!! ^_^ Because it is expressly covered in the rules that Warforged crafters do not craft faster than normal crafters. The reasoning is included with the ruling. Heh.
ishpu 05-18-07, 07:14 AM	..... I don't know whether crafting is realistic or not in the game but... its a game based on fantasy... if you wanted a game based on the real world you wouldn't have fireballs... the only realistic part of d & d is sitting around a table with Mt. dew rolling dice and having a good time talking about the door u just kicked in that killed the guy behind it.
El_Machinae 05-18-07, 07:17 AM	Inigo Montoya's father took a year to make the sword. Being a craftsman is probably safer than being an adventurer. I wouldn't allow that as a DM, since it opens the door to "I am wearing a ring of sustenance, I want to make 2 craft checks a day" hole. The way I read the craft checks, it seems clear to me that each check requires you spend no more than 8 hours a day on any crafting. So that alone would prohibit double or triple crafting by creatures that need no rest. Well, not needing sleep or rest SHOULD make someone more productive, if they set their minds to it. 2 craft checks a day is not unreasonable.
penchant 05-18-07, 08:31 AM	Cohort + levels in rogue + max ranks in all crafting + Factory Warehouse + Follower assistants = WIN for profiteering. Crafting solved at the cost of a feat (and good book keeping). Come on, crafting in WoW has pretty animations to go with it. carfting by yourself... is just playing with yourself. Unless you are making magic items, which can be a group effort, crafting is down time and a single page for a DM to yea or nay.
Evicmar 05-18-07, 09:05 AM	I hate to break this to you but in Races of Stone there is a prestige class that requires you make your own gear. Now they did add magical forges in the book that grant +20 competency bonus to individual craft skills. Looks like to get into the PrC you need to take leadership also and buy two of the forges. Oh, did I mention you also had to sell off all your stuff to buy the forges. Now, after having done all this, the dwarf can then leave his cohort and 1st level followers to work the forges and gain an income from their work. Now in about 3 levels the dwarf has more money than the entire party. Someone please stop the madness. :confused:
Tyberian 05-18-07, 01:40 PM	In one of the souce books, I can't remmember which one, you can make it harder on yourself by increasing the DC of the item either by increments of 5 or 10 and thus doing a larger silver piece value of work each week. For instance, you could make the full plate against a DC of 28 and with a 30 average do 30*28 sp instead of 30*18 sp. An increase by more than 50% which would drop your time by over 1/3rd. Of course the math drifts into probability with logic statements and away from simple averages unless you have some feature such as those of the exemplar allowing you to always take 10. Come to think of it, is there any reason you can't take 20 or 10 on a craft check as long as your base is high enough to keep from screwing up and damaging the material. I haven't looked at the 10 and 20 rules for a while.
RobbyPants 05-18-07, 03:44 PM	Come to think of it, is there any reason you can't take 20 or 10 on a craft check as long as your base is high enough to keep from screwing up and damaging the material. I haven't looked at the 10 and 20 rules for a while. Taking 20 assumes that you spend 20 times the amount of time of a normal check... that would really slow you down ;) When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take. Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search. (emphasis mine)
Vegepygmy 05-18-07, 04:05 PM	Well, not needing sleep or rest SHOULD make someone more productive, if they set their minds to it. 2 craft checks a day is not unreasonable.I agree.
sals 05-18-07, 07:26 PM	Well, not needing sleep or rest SHOULD make someone more productive, if they set their minds to it. 2 craft checks a day is not unreasonable. In Races of Eberron, there is fluff about warforged not being able to concentrate on a single task for more than 8 hrs. Boredom essentially. {I'm paraphrasing heavily.} Though then there wouldn't be as much advantage to some places virtually enslaving them. I let them make 2 different craft checks as a compromise.
Thane26425 05-18-07, 09:47 PM	A lot of my characters have Craft (Jeweler). That's very nice because it lets them take those gems they find on adventures and make them into a more valuable item. However, the times are abyssmal and I've seen jewelry being made by hand and talked to jewelers. It doesn't seem to take anywhere near the amount of time dictated by the rules. For most pieces, like rings, ear rings, necklaces and such that aren't complicated, like with a lot of links, articulations and such, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to make it. The more complicated things could take a while. Something like a King's jewel encrusted crown would probably take weeks at the least. However, since the characters were just making things that most merchants would take in trade or be able to find a buyer for in most average sized towns, the pieces were more modest and would take just a few days to make at most. Then again, if you are a mage and you get Fabricate, as long as you have the skill, time becomes a moot point.
Meikle_641 05-19-07, 03:58 AM	I had that exact same problem with a tiefling bard I played recently. His big hobby was making jewelry, not for sale or anything, just because he enjoyed it and liked bling. Of course, his simple 2x 25 GP onyx gems with a little bit of silver for the dangly chain and hooks took something around 2 weeks EACH by normal craft rules even with +13 to Craft at level 5. The way he finally got stuff done? Cheated with magic. Used Unseen Crafter spell from Races of Eberron to do 3x craft progress while travelling (items were stored in treasure chest). Managed to get them done in a week and gave them away as a gift. Not much fun, these rules. If I was doing it to make cash, I'd have simply made a crapload of cheap copper and silver hoop earrings, bangles, etc. Having to cheat by using magic to do things in a reasonable time isn't particularly fun OR gratifying.
Southernskies 05-19-07, 04:42 AM	For things like jewellry (where there isn't a utility function like arms & armor), a good house rule is to simply require that the crafter do the "masterwork" component of it. MW = DC20; base cost 50gp (so costs 16 gp of "consumables") Final sale price = Raw Materials cost *3 This covers some of those wierd loopholes where the item has a creation time far out of proportion to its final price (or even the raw materials).
risner 05-19-07, 09:54 PM	Well, not needing sleep or rest SHOULD make someone more productive, if they set their minds to it. 2 craft checks a day is not unreasonable. Unreasonable? Sure I'd agree, but it can lead to abuses. Allowed in the rules without a house rule? No.
MindLich 05-19-07, 10:05 PM	Third, so what? Is there any reason in D&D that players can't wait four or six months for something? Most D&D characters don't die of old age and few campaigns even span a few years of in-game time. Good lord. If I would want to be crafting armor for half a year I wouldn't be playing D&D. Who is going to save the world, who is going to save his country from invasion. You can't just be crafting armor when you're a 8th level fighter and the city of Shade just resurfaced. I mean, you can't just let those Phaerimm run around like it was their planet are you?
Thane26425 05-19-07, 11:34 PM	Good lord. If I would want to be crafting armor for half a year I wouldn't be playing D&D. Who is going to save the world, who is going to save his country from invasion. You can't just be crafting armor when you're a 8th level fighter and the city of Shade just resurfaced. I mean, you can't just let those Phaerimm run around like it was their planet are you? I have to agree with you. If one of my characters wants to make something, it shouldn't take a big chunk of their life doing it, especially if something simple like unmagical jewelry.
penchant 05-20-07, 04:22 AM	Then don't be craftsmen. Hire contract labor. Why should you be able to do things faster because you have better things to do?
UnknownMourner 05-20-07, 04:45 AM	The crafting rules also kill the Trophy Collector feat, unless your DM gives you months and months of downtime.
JulesCARV 05-20-07, 05:48 AM	I would say that in a non-low-magic D&D world, most reasonably small objects that are over a certain price -- say, 800 gp -- are usually created through fabrication by shapers, wizards, clerics with the artifice domain, artificers (using the fabricate infusion, not expensive scrolls or anything), or the like. (shapers do it the best, since they get fabricate at level 7, and can have a universal +3 to craft checks thanks to an artiste psicrystal) Breastplates and such still take a pretty long time to craft (breastplates take almost 2 months if your craft modifier is +10 and you take 10, as with a level 1 commoner with 4 ranks, skill focus, +1 int, and masterwork tools), but the really expensive stuff like full plate, mithral breastplates, adamantine weapons, etc, are fabricated. The threshhold at which fabrication is worthwhile varies by how common the mid-to-high level magic of fabrication is, and if there are any taboos against "frivolous" magic usage, but I'd say padded armor is almost never fabricated and adamantine full plate almost always is.
El_Machinae 05-20-07, 08:07 AM	Then don't be craftsmen. Hire contract labor. Why should you be able to do things faster because you have better things to do? Free Market Economics. If you make more adventuring in one week than you can craft, then adventure and hire a crafter! (*crafting is probably safer!)
Jarii246 06-01-07, 12:46 PM	So, does anybody have any suggestions for fixing the craft system?
Knightblde 06-01-07, 01:00 PM	So, does anybody have any suggestions for fixing the craft system? Basically, it is not broken. The system is designed to make the math easy and the same for everyone. While it is odd that every trade makes the same amount of money in any give time (based on same skill and die roll), it is great as a system is concerned. As a not to reality, I am a carpenter's son. Therefore I can do most of my home repairs my self. I was refurbishing a bedroom to rent out. It took me about a week. I had a few roommates for a while. One was from India. When I was using shims to install the new door, he was amazed that I could just go to the local home center and buy them. When I asked what he was talking about, he explained that in his country I would have had to make the shims, as well as the door. It would take me three weeks, full time, to make that door. I bought it for $65.00. My point is that we take not only our modern tools for granted, but our modern supply chain. A perfect example is that if you want to cook, you turn on the stove. In any D&D world, if you want to cook, you have to get fuel. I know the amount of fuel required for crafting a weapon is huge! But on another note, time in 3.5 is a lot different that 1st and 2nd edition. Then your characters life was to take place over years, not months. In our games, we have switched back to that, allowing for down time and crafting. As time can be blown by in seconds with your DMs permission, it is all about your gaming group, and not so much the rules. The Crafting Point rules in Unearthed Arcana will give you what you are looking for. They allow for next day crafting. But by assigning points, they limit it so you can't make as much as you want, you have a total number per level. Check them out, you might like them.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-01-07, 01:26 PM	Yes, in a world where 7th level characters can achieve real world records in physical abilities (Jump, Swim, Climb) without breaking a sweat the crafting rules take too long. In a D&D world, where masterwork basically is almost meaningless past level 6 or so, the skill is pretty worthless just in general. The failure of the craft skill is that it was balanced from "How much money will you make", not based on "is what you are making right now worth the effort for your fighter." Which is kind of a joke with the mistakes like the ladder -> 10' pole bit.
BW0222 06-01-07, 05:13 PM	Folks, So, does anybody have any suggestions for fixing the craft system? That assumes that it is broken. So far, no one has actually explained why it needs fixing. Common 'complaints' seem to be: It takes too long. Which I don't see as a problem since I've yet to see a human die of old age during the course of a normal campaign. No reason they can't take months or years of time off. It isn't realistic. Suggesting that someone can actually make such items giving middle-ages technologies in shorter periods of time. Which of course isn't true. In most cases, it would take considerably longer in the real world. It generally represents what typical business might earn given the costs of food, clothing, and other essentials other the same period of time. One can easily make an economic model where a smith keeps his family of six alive without becoming a zillionaire or starving to death. It doesn't make enough money. In which case one has to ask "As much money as what?" It makes more money than other skills -- swim, climb, etc. -- so I don't buy that any skill needs to make money. Saying that it doesn't make as much money as give week of adventuring is also silly. Earning thousands of gold per week adventuring involves risking your neck, fighting stuff, going to dangerous places, having dozens of skills/feats, luck of finding such adventure, the possiblity of ending up with nothing, etc. Certainly someone putting a few ranks into a single skill shouldn't be able to earn money at the rate of folks It isn't as useful as other skills. Which of course assumes that all skill need to be roughly equal in usefulness to an adventurer. Sorry, many skills are truely useless for a typical adventurer and most non-core skills depend heavily on the campaign setting and location. No point in taking swim in a desert setting. No point in taking forgery in a jungle-based campaign. It becomes less useful over time. Which most other skills do also. Yes, craft might be more useful at low levels where making mighty bows might be cool, but pointless at 5th+ when you could just buy them. However, the same is true of many non-combat skills. Eventually, you reach a point at which money or magic can replace most of them. Any need to climb up a cliff or swim across a river when someone has a fly spell or can wildshape into an eagle? Does survival get any more useful beyond +10 or so? Does even a ranger need more than +15 on handle animal? Even things like open locks, move silently, and hide become less useful when the party has wands of knock, silence scrolls, and rings of invisibility. PCs don't take the skill. This assumes that all skills must be taken by PCs. Well, if you are adventuring some skills are more important than others. There are lots of other skills which are not that useful to most adventurers. The fact PCs don't take it often is a sign that this is one of those skills. Same with profession and many other skills which are intended for non-adventurers. Again no one has ever managed to convince me why it needs fixing.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-01-07, 05:29 PM	Again no one has ever managed to convince me why it needs fixing. Here's why. It is impossible for a character to make his own (useful) weapons and armor in a reasonable time for a fantasy world. Why should anyone care? Because that's a fantasy staple. If I want to wield a weapon forged by my own hand and infused by my desire to combat the evils that have driven me from my homeland I need to either convince the GM to break the rules or find a way to cast fabricate. And that just isn't right.
zzo38 06-01-07, 05:30 PM	There is craft points describedin Unearthed Arcana, you can make it faster with that.
BW0222 06-01-07, 08:10 PM	DaidojiTaidoru, Here's why. It is impossible for a character to make his own (useful) weapons and armor in a reasonable time for a fantasy world. And why is even two years unreasonable in a fantasy world? Is there some reaons why the players and DM can't agree to have characters spent months or years of time undertaking a task? Player: "I'd like Grog to make a suit of masterwork platemail." DM: "Ok, that will take nine months. You'll need a workshop and a place to stay for that time period." Player: "Ok. I'll rent a smithy and here is 150gp for a year's worth of inn stays, food, and a few nights on the town." DM: "Fine. The current date is the 10th of Fireseek 1039. The next session will begin on the 10th of Coldeven 1040. If anyone else has anything they'd like to do over those nine months, please send me an e-mail." Honestly, there is no limitation on advancing the calendar forward several months or years. ... I need to either convince the GM to break the rules or find a way to cast fabricate. And that just isn't right. Nonsense. You just get the players and DM to agree to advance the calendar forward X months. No one has to break any rules. Folks do it all the time with mundane activies. You don't roleplay sleeping, every step of a six day journey, or taking three days to dig a pit and burry bodies. Provided you have the means of doing so, the DM can easily just advance the clock an hour, day, or week and assume that the task is done. Six months, a year, etc. it really doesn't matter. It is just a number on an imaginary calendar. Even humans have over thirty years of adulthood in which they can adventure. A few months or years here and there isn't going to kill them. I've rarely seen campaigns lasting more than a few years of game time -- even with large breaks between adventures. Most rarely take more than a year of in-game time. Tossing in a few six month or one year breaks is hardly an issue. I'm sure the other players can find something useful to do with their time. Maybe the ranger wants to spend his nine months building a log cabin? Perhaps the wizard wants to research some new spells or train some apprencises? Perhaps the fighter might want to marry the bar wench and start a family? Hopefully someone in the group has some goal other to walk around the countryside liking orcs and trolls until they die.
Lady Maedhros 06-01-07, 08:28 PM	In nine months, the BBEG will have taken over the world. Twice.
Knightblde 06-01-07, 08:56 PM	How long would it take you to ride a horse around the world? He can't even build his castle in nine months.
Cariyaga 06-01-07, 10:50 PM	The BBEG has created a portal to the abyss, and is commanding waves of creatures to take down the world. What are you doing? Making a suit of masterwork full-plate, so you can kill him--Oh, wait, the country's already destroyed. Oh well.
NoldorForce 06-02-07, 12:41 AM	It's generally fine and realistic for normal stuff. Full plate can be a bugger, but it's been stated that this was a realistic time for it and so I'm fine with it. That being said...the problems pop up when you start using fancy materials and other funny nonmagical things. Things that add SMEGGING MULTIPLIERS to the cost of the equipment. Then the time required for the item balloons well beyond what a player, a PC, or even an NPC (in certain cases) would want to spend actually crafting it. Not to mention the fact that many sets of armor will take years to construct with stuff that's not that much harder to use properly. Really, even realism takes a dive when you scale time linearly with cost and then apply astronomical increases to that cost. As noted above by JulesCARV, most nonmagical things above a certain price are probably made by a caster with Fabricate. Sure, any smith can construct the item if he wants to...but he'll have to work for weeks or months to make something that few people will pay for or even have the capacity to pay for. Or he can make lower-cost items for a surer source of income. And the cloistered wizard can pay for his occasional spell expenses, plus a few things on the side, by casting Fabricate every two weeks or so and giving up a nominal fee to that smith so that his wares might be seen by the average adventurer.
JadeSpider9643 06-02-07, 06:07 AM	oh blood-ie-HELL!!!! Not this again! Let me sum up the arguement to someone's overreaction to their first glance at at an extreme example. crafting is NOT broken BECAUSE: 1)you CAN craft plate mail with D&D crafting rules much FASTER than it could be using historically accorate methods. 2)typical adventuer's however can NOT craft it very fast because THEY DONT SPECIALIZE IN IT! 3)what about the 200 other items that CAN be crafted in a reasonable amount of time using the crafting rules? some manacles, alchemist fire, a lantern? If the rules work for 99.9% of the things it covers, why try to change them just to suit the 00.1%?
Lady Maedhros 06-02-07, 01:12 PM	3)what about the 200 other items that CAN be crafted in a reasonable amount of time using the crafting rules? some manacles, alchemist fire, a lantern? If the rules work for 99.9% of the things it covers, why try to change them just to suit the 00.1%? Because the 99% of items that are absurd to make (IE, anything past about level 2 ) are 85% of what [i]adventurers, also known as PCs, also known as the people who play the game, for whom the game was made, use on a daily basis. He can't even build his castle in nine months. Okay, I have no idea what the horse thing is supposed to mean, but the BBEG starts with a castle. He's level 18-22 when the game begins, that's the whole point of being a BBEG. He already has plans in motion that the PCs are supposed to thwart. If they're crafting instead of thwarting, the BBEG is not going to helpfully sit on his ass and wait for them to finish up.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-02-07, 01:19 PM	How long would it take you to ride a horse around the world? He can't even build his castle in nine months. With magic he can. At 11th level the wizard can slap together an item in 1 standard action, so time as a balancing factor is meaningless. Realism died back at 2nd level when the Rogue gained the ability to avoid continent destroying magic so long as it allows a reflex save. D&D is dramatic fantasy. The master swordsmith should be able to produce a legendary sword out of the most expensive material in the world in a week of work to hand to the Paladin while the BBEG marshals his demon forces (or to give to the demon). At high levels it should be a magical weapon too, but that's another rant for another time.
ATroubledMarco 06-02-07, 01:55 PM	The BBEG has created a portal to the abyss, and is commanding waves of creatures to take down the world. What are you doing? Making a suit of masterwork full-plate, so you can kill him--Oh, wait, the country's already destroyed. Oh well. If your character's in a real hurry, it's pretty ridiculous that he'd sit down and start crafting things anyway. "The demons are at the gates!" "Sorry, crafting a sword." "Please, just take anything you need out of the armory!" "Are you kidding? My character's too good to use things that weren't crafted by his own hands! Them bloody demons will just have to wait!"
Knightblde 06-02-07, 04:06 PM	Because the 99% of items that are absurd to make (IE, anything past about level 2 ) are 85% of what [i]adventurers, also known as PCs, also known as the people who play the game, for whom the game was made, use on a daily basis. Okay, I have no idea what the horse thing is supposed to mean, but the BBEG starts with a castle. He's level 18-22 when the game begins, that's the whole point of being a BBEG. He already has plans in motion that the PCs are supposed to thwart. If they're crafting instead of thwarting, the BBEG is not going to helpfully sit on his ass and wait for them to finish up. The 'horse thing' means that it would take a while to travel all over the world, let alone take it over. I just watched The Return of the King last night and I was thinking about this post. It took Frodo 13 months to the day to do his quest and get back to the Shire. Don't you think it is kind of odd that the BBEG can muster thousands of Chaotic troops in a plane that is infinate in size and have them get to the material plane, and do his bidding in a short amount of time? Sarun couldn't do it. With magic he can. But with magic, the OP can make his sword/armor in no time also. And if you want to use them, again, use the crafting point rules in the Unearthed Arcana. Happy Gaming!
Lady Maedhros 06-02-07, 04:10 PM	If your character's in a real hurry, it's pretty ridiculous that he'd sit down and start crafting things anyway. "The demons are at the gates!" "Sorry, crafting a sword." "Please, just take anything you need out of the armory!" "Are you kidding? My character's too good to use things that weren't crafted by his own hands! Them bloody demons will just have to wait!" Problem is, you're arguing from RAW. Yes, it *is* pretty silly for a PC to sit down and start crafting in a world where a) crafting takes a very long time, b) anyone can craft anything, given appropriate spell access, and c) no magic items are particularly unique in effect, and you really can find a useful weapon in the city armory. But the point we're arguing here is that those things don't have to be true. In fact, it's often a staple of fantasy that a character be more effective with his own weapon, wielded over three long days and three sleepless nights for the specific purpose of slaughtering the otherwise untouchable Dread Lord. Just because RAW assumes that you can pick up a +3 holy greatsword at the local Adventurers 'R' Us doesn't mean that every game should be that way, and it certainly doesn't mean it's not a great loss to the game at all that you can't make your own. :raincloud And anyway, where are all those bloody Ancestral Weapons coming from in the first place? If your grandaddy was a mage, why did he make himself a waraxe, and if he was a warrior, what the bloody heck was he doing spending three years making a single weapon when there was evil to smite? I just watched The Return of the King last night and I was thinking about this post. It took Frodo 13 months to the day to do his quest and get back to the Shire. :nonono: LotR is a distinctly low-magic setting and has pretty much nothing to do with D&D. I truly wish people wouldn't try to seriously compare the two, there are almost no meaningful parallels to be drawn at this point in the game's evolution. Yes, it takes a realistically long time for armies to mass and for the Fellowship to get around Middle-Earth; that's because Sauron doesn't have shadow walk or teleport or gate. D&D baddies do.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-02-07, 04:16 PM	The 'horse thing' means that it would take a while to travel all over the world, let alone take it over. I just watched The Return of the King last night and I was thinking about this post. It took Frodo 13 months to the day to do his quest and get back to the Shire. Don't you think it is kind of odd that the BBEG can muster thousands of Chaotic troops in a plane that is infinate in size and have them get to the material plane, and do his bidding in a short amount of time? Sarun couldn't do it. Gandalf, who is a DEMIGOD in Lord of the Rings, doesn't break level 6 as a wizard. And the Elves still managed to reforge Aragorn's artifact sword in the week or so of downtime in the book. But with magic, the OP can make his sword/armor in no time also. And if you want to use them, again, use the crafting point rules in the Unearthed Arcana. Happy Gaming! Remember, non casters don't get nice things. :rant:
Lady Maedhros 06-02-07, 04:27 PM	Remember, non casters don't get nice things. :rant: ARCANE CRAFT APTITUDE [ITEM CREATION, FIGHTER] Prerequisite: Craft (any) 4 ranks, Use Magic Device 4 ranks Benefit: You can use the Craft skill to create magical items even if the required spells are not on your spell list or if you do not have a spell list or magical ability of any kind. You still must meet other prerequisites for the item you wish to create, and you must have access to the required spells in some form (be it a wand, a scroll, or a friendly caster who knows the spell). If you are using a scroll, spellbook or other magical device rather than actual spells, a Use Magic Device check is required as part of the crafting process when you create an item in this way. If your check result is not sufficient to activate the item containing the highest level spell you are using, your Craft attempt fails and your spell source is wasted, if expendable. You may also repair a magic item that you could not ordinarily create yourself. This requires both the normal Craft check and a Use Magic Device check (sufficient to activate the device you're fixing) to accomplish; if either check fails, you are unable to repair the item.
Jeriaus 06-02-07, 10:07 PM	i think the real problem is that the rules dont cover haveing more the none good crafters, they only cover helpers. Say there are two master blacksmith bros, the king tells them to make him armor. One bros can only give the other a +2 bonus, thats stupid. You should be able to divide up the work between skilled craftsman. In the given example, divide the cost by two and have the brothers each make seperate craft checks. If one screws up he only screws up his half af the materials. Also Gandalf only being a level 6 Wizard is the most retarded thing over printed by Dragon(it was Dragon right?). He kills a Balrog. Thats a Balor/Pit Fiend in D&D.
ravenshrike 06-02-07, 11:14 PM	Jarii246 Actually no. First, your 18x18 craft check is bizzare. Taking a 10, your total bonus is only +8? Anyone actually doing this as anything but a hobby would easily be well beyond +8. A 5th-level expert, with 8 ranks, +3 int, +3 skill focus, +2 masterwork tool would easily hit +16. Add a pair of assistants (3rd-level, 6 ranks, +2 intelligence, and +2 masterwork tools) who can't fail a DC 10 check to assist and your total is +20. Taking a 10, you get 30. You may voluntarily raise the DC of a task by 10 if you wish. Thus your weekly progress is 30x28 = 840 sp / week. A suit of full plate thus takes any reasonable armorer only 18 weeks. This is perfectly fine, until you realize that a check of 30 in every other skill in D&D is a level of ability well nigh miraculous, whereas with the crafting rules it's suddenly just slightly above average. The suits of plate that took over 6 months to make were the ones made with extra embossment and decoration for various lords, and making plate that still functions and looks special is much more time consuming than making a relatively simple suit of full plate. Not only that, but you can bet your ass that said blacksmith which took 18 weeks to make a suit of plate would simultaneously be working on 2-5 other projects.
ravenshrike 06-02-07, 11:21 PM	Inigo Montoya's father took a year to make the sword. And that sword was the spanish equivilant of the japanese 10,000 Winters or Tender Hands, which is one HELL of a lot higher quality than masterwork. In fact, it's the non-magical equivilent of a +5 weapon.
ravenshrike 06-02-07, 11:47 PM	Don't you think it is kind of odd that the BBEG can muster thousands of Chaotic troops in a plane that is infinate in size and have them get to the material plane, and do his bidding in a short amount of time? Sarun couldn't do it. Arrrgh. Sauron at the time of LotR had been level-drained to at max 18th level, probably closer to 16th, just with really high mental stats. Now, for being a disembodied eye that can't do anything other than mentally dominate people, that's relatively damned impressive. Gandalf pre-balrog was probably less than 15th level. Post had probably been boosted to epic by a template. The spells he had were more powerful, but really didn't have much new. Aragorn by the end was level 12, maybe, if you're being generous. IF you're being generous. LotR was on the low-end of the middle-earth power scale. Sauron was unable to do ANYTHING by himself that required movement. The fact that he set in motion such massive events AT ALL is a testament to his evil genius.
Malruhn 06-03-07, 10:18 PM	I still don't have a problem with crafting rules. If you need a sword TODAY, go buy one that is ready made... if you need a spell cast TODAY, find a mage that has it memorized. If you want that darkmetal, bursting, silenced +2 dagger of wounding, then order it and be prepared to wait. My sister-in-law had a canopy bed made for my niece, and had to order it from the Amish in Southern Ohio. It took a car trip to the shop to get it properly described and drawn out - then it took three months to make - and another car trip to go pick it up. And we are talking about a wooden bed frame made by master craftsmen. The post above about the jewelry being made quickly made me laugh. I make jewelry - and it really does take very little time. I can crank out a passable ring in about six hours of work. With pre-purchased ingots of silver, pre-made and machined melting pots, tongs, scrapers, molds, picks, pliers, crimpers, polishers - and my ever present set of SIX precision butane torches that can easily melt a small chunk of silver sitting on my thumbnail - without burning the thumb it is sitting on. Take all this away, and it would probably take several weeks to craft it... if I could do it at all. Nope - I don't have a problem at all with the crafting times. Don't forget that even the BBEG's army has to be fed - and wars are almost NEVER fought in the winter for this reason.
Ghostwheel 06-03-07, 11:28 PM	I guess intelligent undead make the best crafters then. They do not need to sleep, and thus can churn out stuff 3 times as fast as other races...:P Since Undead are no longer full participants in creation, I would rule that even intelligent undead have a cumulative -2/HD to any chance to create any original object, and a -1/HD chance to copy an existing object. Yes, I am anti-undead. I do not think they should be able to create or procreate as freely as the living. I do not think that they should be considered as possible player-characters. I hope that my opinion does not upset you.
Lady Maedhros 06-04-07, 02:08 AM	I still don't have a problem with crafting rules. If you need a sword TODAY, go buy one that is ready made... if you need a spell cast TODAY, find a mage that has it memorized. If you want that darkmetal, bursting, silenced +2 dagger of wounding, then order it and be prepared to wait. My sister-in-law had a canopy bed made for my niece, and had to order it from the Amish in Southern Ohio. It took a car trip to the shop to get it properly described and drawn out - then it took three months to make - and another car trip to go pick it up. And we are talking about a wooden bed frame made by master craftsmen. The post above about the jewelry being made quickly made me laugh. I make jewelry - and it really does take very little time. I can crank out a passable ring in about six hours of work. With pre-purchased ingots of silver, pre-made and machined melting pots, tongs, scrapers, molds, picks, pliers, crimpers, polishers - and my ever present set of SIX precision butane torches that can easily melt a small chunk of silver sitting on my thumbnail - without burning the thumb it is sitting on. Take all this away, and it would probably take several weeks to craft it... if I could do it at all. Nope - I don't have a problem at all with the crafting times. Don't forget that even the BBEG's army has to be fed - and wars are almost NEVER fought in the winter for this reason. You're talking about the real world. Why are you talking about the real world? By level 7, the D&D game has left the real world far behind. See the link in my sig for some quick, easy examples.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-04-07, 03:41 AM	One easy fix for the Crafting rules is to add the "and it's made of X which is worth Y" qualification to all crafting requirements, not just magic items where you can tack on extra cost for items made of special valuable materials such as adamantium or mithril. Just do that for all items. For example, let's say you're making a metal ring and ignore the question of the exact metal to begin with. A plain band has a DC of 5, a ring with some simple design has a DC of 10, one with a fancier design has a DC of 15, and one with an ornate design is DC 20. Puzzle rings are DC 25 and poison rings with well hidden needles or secret compartments are DC 30. The jewelers guild has set prices for crafting all these styles on their board with an additional cost for the value of materials: 1 copper piece for a copper ring, 1 silver piece for a silver ring, 1 gold piece for a gold ring, 1 platinum piece for a platinum ring and so on into rarer magical metals. It is no more difficult to work with gold than with copper, just more costly if you fail a crafting check and ruin half the materials. (Yes, it is possible to lose metal in the smelting process.) Magical metals may require special equipment (dragonfire for forging adamantium, for example) but no special expertise. A plain adamantium band follows the same process as a tin one. If an item doesn't have a listed price, or for that matter a price that doesn't make sense, use the following formula: simple item (spoon) 1 cp + cost of materials; typical item (pot) 1 sp + cost of materials; high quality item (bell) 1 gp + cost of materials; complex item (lock) 10 GP (1 platinum) + cost of materials; intricate item (magnifying glass) 100 GP; precision item (spyglass) 1000 GP. Note: The Players Handbook lists iron as being 1 sp per lb. as a trade good, but a 10 lb. iron pot costs 5 sp. Either the king is subsidizing cookpots or else someone didn't check the math. Instead, just follow the formula such that a ten pound pot made of terra cotta (free) costs 1 sp, of iron (1 sp per pound) costs 1 gp & 1 sp, and of copper (5 sp per pound) is 5 gp & 1 sp. Masterwork is not a separate component but the result of a spectacular success on the die roll. If you succeed on your DC by 20 or more, you've created a masterwork item and can sell it for 20 times its listed value not counting the additional value of rare and costly materials. (cf. A regular musical instrument costs 5 GP whereas a masterwork musical instrument costs 100 GP.) This means that a starting character does have a chance of making a masterwork wooden spoon because it's a wooden spoon and the DC is only 5 regardless of whether you're carving it out of regular pine or some rare exotic magical wood -- meanwhile the guildmaster of the woodcarvers guild is going to be churning out masterwork wooden spoons with regularity just by taking 10 and is consequently going to be the one playing around with the rare magical woods, leaving the apprentices to play with pine until they get good enough. Musical instruments are DC 20, and thus DC 40 to make a masterwork musical instrument. Crafters get a +2 synergy bonus to make a given musical instrument if they have 5 ranks in the related Perform category. Crafting any variety of artisans tools or other tools also benefits from 5 ranks in the related craft or profession. The speed it takes to craft an item is whatever it would take in the real world. Physics doesn't take a holiday unless you use a Fabricate spell. However, regular crafting time takes into account the time taken to correct minor mistakes, guage, adjust and so forth. A crafter can rush a job but the DC is raised by 10. However, the crafting is done in half the time. As every artisan says, "Do you want it done fast or do you want it done right?" Both requires a DC 50 for a complex item such as a musical instrument. Most crafting assumes 8 hour work days with a single artisan and at most one assistant. A guild hall with multiple artisans or a mage with the Unseen Crafter spell can craft 24/7, cutting crafting time to one third. Yes, an Unseen Crafter can assist an Unseen Crafter. Magic items can be enspelled concurrent with actual crafting. If you're going to forge a sword or weave a cloak, you can put the spells in as you're making it. So long as you have sufficient skill in the appropriate craft skills, there's no trouble. If you have a Dedicated Wright homonculous, the Dedicated Wright has the same skills as an Unseen Crafter for crafting nonmagical items as well. Finally, yes, you can do an assembly line with multiple crafters if you've got an item which requires multiple crafts. For example, a 1000 GP telescope requires Craft Gemcutting to grind the lenses and Craft Metalsmithing to turn the barrels. Assume 500 GP value per task with the usual time formulae. 5 ranks in Knowledge Architecture & Engineering give a +2 synergy bonus for both tasks. Similarly, a ring with a gem can be split up between Craft Metalsmithing and Craft Gemcutting for the individual components, a cloak with fur trim can be split between Craft Weaving and Craft Leatherworking and so on.
ServanWolf 06-04-07, 03:54 AM	its true that iut takes long long times...but that only for the ARMORS ..weapons and other can be crafte in a week ... by the way im creating a crafting class, comment it plz ;)...its a expert/spellcaster variant and he is able of good crafting and having access to all needed spells to craft these items. must only a bit more worked out :) The Blacksmith (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=858663)
Hart 06-18-07, 12:33 PM	I'm not going to say that it isn't realistic, or that it doesn't make you any money. What I am going to say that it isn't any fun. This is an extremely tedious element of an otherwise very exciting, fantastical game. The point of a game is for its players to have fun, relax, not have to worry about work while immersing themselves in a fantasy land. If I wanted to do something that takes a long time and effort and gives me little satisfaction, I'll put on my uniform and go to my crappy job. Sure, it isn't broken, per se, but it is in a state where it's not any fun to use it, so people only ever use it grudgingly when they could be killing dragons, saving princesses and spelunking in ancient ruins. I think that if any part of a game just isn't any fun to play, then it needs to fixed whether it's "broken" or not. I don't propose for a character to be able to do crazy stuff that just makes the game a min-maxing storm. I just want my character to have fun and not die from tedium while making his little pixie poisons to put on tiny darts and stick into people's eyes.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-18-07, 01:18 PM	I'm not going to say that it isn't realistic, or that it doesn't make you any money. What I am going to say that it isn't any fun. This is an extremely tedious element of an otherwise very exciting, fantastical game. The point of a game is for its players to have fun, relax, not have to worry about work while immersing themselves in a fantasy land. If I wanted to do something that takes a long time and effort and gives me little satisfaction, I'll put on my uniform and go to my crappy job. Sure, it isn't broken, per se, but it is in a state where it's not any fun to use it, so people only ever use it grudgingly when they could be killing dragons, saving princesses and spelunking in ancient ruins. I think that if any part of a game just isn't any fun to play, then it needs to fixed whether it's "broken" or not. I don't propose for a character to be able to do crazy stuff that just makes the game a min-maxing storm. I just want my character to have fun and not die from tedium while making his little pixie poisons to put on tiny darts and stick into people's eyes. Very well said. I think the best balance with realism and fun would be to do an Unearthed Arcana style system as is done for magic items and just assume that any character with Craft skills is continually puttering on stuff, basically whittling, and at some point the DM can just say, "Why yes, you have something already made in your crafting bag that can be adapted to the task-at-hand in just a few seconds." With reason, this works.
Radiant117 06-18-07, 01:54 PM	About custom-made plate mails: if you're hiring someone to make a plate mail for you and he insists on you being present for adjusting and all that stuff, tell him to never mind and enchant the armor to +1, and it will automatically resize. On crafting in general: I don't use it, due to the specific campaign styles I'm playing and DMing. In my experience, once the PCs don't have a clearly determined objective, they are gradually turning into PKs. So, no prolonged downtime. If I have an ability, I want to be using it whenever I like. If I spend a precious feat slot on (say) Craft Wondrous Item, I don't care if a BBEG is taking over the world as long as my powers-by-level guidelines are not fulfilled. So I have an agreement with the DM: we get whatever we want (almost), but the DM gets us bite his adventure hooks (well, we will bite his adventure hooks no matter what, because that's what D&D is all about, but I try to make it seem like a good deal). On profit: Q: Why can't a wizard make money with item creation feats? And if he can't, then who is selling them at full price? If a wizard cannot make profit from item creation feats, then what use are those feats, other then making items for himself or the party? --Jacob A: The economy of the D&D world isn't intended to reflect a real-world economic model, but to provide a playable, balanced game experience that incents characters to go on adventures rather than sit at home in a laboratory. The item creation feats exist for two reasons: 1. To explain how magic items come to exist in the world; and 2. To allow PCs to create items they need but aren't able to find or purchase. If characters could make a profit crafting and selling magic items, then they don't need to go on adventures. But D&D isn't a game about running a business, it's a game about exploring dungeons, slaying dragons, and going home with piles of gold and shiny new magic items. Thus, those are the activities its rules are designed to support best. Miscellaneous: Inigo Montoya's sword (which is probably a major artifact) took a year to *design* and make. I suspect the sword has been redesigned and remade many times over to achieve perfection. And the example shows us that smithing is *just as* deadly as adventuring. And Mike Selinker says Gandalf is Sor 10.
BW0222 06-18-07, 03:58 PM	Hart, What I am going to say that it isn't any fun. This is an extremely tedious element of an otherwise very exciting, fantastical game. I've asked this question almost every post, but exactly why does advancing game time make it unplayable? I don't see why it is tedious. Take 10, add your skill modifier, and multiple by the DC of the item. Then divide the price of the item (in silver) by this number. Subtract 1/3 the value of the item and have the DM advance the calendar by that number of weeks. How is this extremely tedious? I don't see PCs dying of old age in any of my campaigns. There is no reason DMs can't insert several months or years of time in between plot arcs. Honestly, if you didn't insert "down time" into campaigns, you'd reach 20th-level within a in-game year. I just want my character to have fun and not die from tedium while making his little pixie poisons to put on tiny darts and stick into people's eyes. I still don't see why this is tedious. PC: "Now that we have eliminated the goblins, I'd like to craft a masterwork shortsword when we get back to town." DM: "Ok. DC is 20. You have +10, so taking a 10, you do 400sp/week. It is worth 307gp or 3070sp, so you finish in about 8 weeks. So, can everyone else let me know what you are doing within the next two months?" (Various discussions about PCs might do over the next two months. The DM limits it to mundane things.) DM: "Fine. Two months pass by. The rainy weather ends as you enter high summer. Shipping traffic along the coast has increased mainly due to the calmer seas. Various members of the guard have been hired as rumors of smugglers have been heard around town. - Grek has heard through his church that a number of merchants are having a hard time due to a flood of cheap goods entering town. - Sandra travelled to the foothills where her sister was married. Some folks are worried that the extra guards in the capital mean fewer guards to protect the fields during the harvest. They expect bugbear problems like last fall. - Lodan spent some time in the nearby woods training his dog and heard rumors that the druid's council is looking for a member. - Meanwhile, Holdack has spent time crafting a shiny new shortsword. From folks in town, he has heard that cheap copper have been making their way into town. " Takes five minutes, sets up natural points to roleplay having some life (other than killing monsters), and allows the DM to set-up the next plot arc. I don't see why is has to be tedious or why it can't be done. PCs don't adventure 24-7. There is no reason why the DM can't advance the calendar by a few months or years to allow character to develop. I mean can't PCs have families, build strongholds, work at the church, etc.?
AAB 06-18-07, 04:04 PM	Hart, I've asked this question almost every post, but exactly why does advancing game time make it unplayable? I don't see why it is tedious. Take 10, add your skill modifier, and multiple by the DC of the item. Then divide the price of the item (in silver) by this number. Subtract 1/3 the value of the item and have the DM advance the calendar by that number of weeks. How is this extremely tedious? I don't see PCs dying of old age in any of my campaigns. There is no reason DMs can't insert several months or years of time in between plot arcs. Honestly, if you didn't insert "down time" into campaigns, you'd reach 20th-level within a in-game year. I still don't see why this is tedious. PC: "Now that we have eliminated the goblins, I'd like to craft a masterwork shortsword when we get back to town." DM: "Ok. DC is 20. You have +10, so taking a 10, you do 400sp/week. It is worth 307gp or 3070sp, so you finish in about 8 weeks. So, can everyone else let me know what you are doing within the next two months?" (Various discussions about PCs might do over the next two months. The DM limits it to mundane things.) DM: "Fine. Two months pass by. The rainy weather ends as you enter high summer. Shipping traffic along the coast has increased mainly due to the calmer seas. Various members of the guard have been hired as rumors of smugglers have been heard around town. - Grek has heard through his church that a number of merchants are having a hard time due to a flood of cheap goods entering town. - Sandra travelled to the foothills where her sister was married. Some folks are worried that the extra guards in the capital mean fewer guards to protect the fields during the harvest. They expect bugbear problems like last fall. - Lodan spent some time in the nearby woods training his dog and heard rumors that the druid's council is looking for a member. - Meanwhile, Holdack has spent time crafting a shiny new shortsword. From folks in town, he has heard that cheap copper have been making their way into town. " Takes five minutes, sets up natural points to roleplay having some life (other than killing monsters), and allows the DM to set-up the next plot arc. I don't see why is has to be tedious or why it can't be done. PCs don't adventure 24-7. There is no reason why the DM can't advance the calendar by a few months or years to allow character to develop. I mean can't PCs have families, build strongholds, work at the church, etc.? well said, you with the name of seemingly random letters and numbers. i never liked the idea of PCs becoming 20th level in a couple months' adventuring, and craft rules help to bring that pace down a bit.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-18-07, 04:31 PM	well said, you with the name of seemingly random letters and numbers. i never liked the idea of PCs becoming 20th level in a couple months' adventuring, and craft rules help to bring that pace down a bit. That doesn't mean the crafting rules make sense, with it taking ten times as long to make the same necklace out of gold instead of silver. I'm all for occasionally slowing down the pace of adventuring, but it's more elegant to simply say "It takes two months to make a short sword" rather than automatically using a formula which produces results which are half the time at odds with reality.
AAB 06-18-07, 05:00 PM	maybe it takes twice as long to make a necklace out of gold as silver because you have to work with a much softer metal to more exacting specifications. it will take you more time because you have to be more careful than if you were simply making it out of cheaper materials.
drade 06-18-07, 05:08 PM	I don't understand why everyone beleives it takes this long to build say a sword or even full plate, if I remember my lvl 1 PsyW, made his long sword and chianshirt in just a matter of weeks before he went adventuring. I think only 3-4 weeks. With game rules. It's just a little confusing why anyone would think that is to long. Here is a break down a friend did to help me understand crafting a bit more. Welcome one and all to Flux's Do It Yourself where we will cover how to... Do It Yourself! We're going to learn about Crafts... that is alchemy, armorsmithing, basketweaving, bookbinding, bowmaking, blacksmithing, calligraphy, carpentry, cobbling, gemcutting, leatherworking, locksmithing, painting, pottery, sculpting, shipmaking, stonemasonry, trapmaking, weaponsmithing, and weaving! I will actually only be covering a few of these but when we're finished you will have a very good idea of what it takes to make what you want. Now first off Craft and Profession are not the same. They have things in common but don't get confused! While a craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. Also having skill points in one thing (weaponsmithing) for example doesn't mean you know the whole kitten kaboodle. Whereas you might know how to forge steel into an ouchmaker of epic proportions you missed out on the less violent weaving skill. So lets begin...Today we're going to learn how to make a longsword. We'll need artisan's tools for this... you can find them in the players hand book on page 129. Masterwork artisan's tools gives us a +2 bonus! How to Craft Find the price for the item. Convert this to sp. Find the DC on the chart (pg 71 in phb) or have DM set one. Pay 1/3 of the item's price for cost of raw materials. make the craft (weaponsmithing) check representing 1 week's work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result x the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed your item. If the result x the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. If the result x the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces. If you fail a check by 4 or less you make no progress. If you fail by 5 or less you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw materials again. Wow, that's a pretty wordy formula. Let's try making that Longsword now. How to Craft: Longsword Price of Longsword 15g. Converted to sp is 150s. Find the DC In our example it will be DC15. pay 1/3 price of item. 1/3 of 15 is 5 Make the Craft Weaponsmithing check. I have a total of 10 in Craft Weaponsmithing (ranks and ability modifiers included) and I roll a 5. 10 + 5 = 15. so I pass the check! I take 15x15 = 225. I have successfully created my longsword in only a week! Huzzah! Now had this been a little different... Price of Longsword 15g. Converted to sp is 150s. Find the DC In our example it will be DC15. pay 1/3 price of item. 1/3 of 15 is 5 Make the Craft Weaponsmithing check. I have a total of 5 in Craft Weaponsmithing (ranks and ability modifiers included) and I roll a 5. 5+5 = 10 I failed the check! Even worse... I failed the check by 5! I lost 1/2 my materials! Don't fret... simply pay another 2.5g and start over again! Starting a new week we come back and I roll a 17. 17+5 = 22 I pass the check! 22 x 15 = 330! Not only did I manage to make my long sword... I made it in only a week and a half! Huzzah! By taking a little downtime and putting in a little work in you not only got a longsword but you saved 10g to boot! See you next time on... Do It Yourself! I hopes this help. Oh and as I understand it right you break it down to copper to do it in days.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-18-07, 05:10 PM	maybe it takes twice as long to make a necklace out of gold as silver because you have to work with a much softer metal to more exacting specifications. it will take you more time because you have to be more careful than if you were simply making it out of cheaper materials. Or it could take less because it's way easier to shape gold then silver. But realism isn't the point, or at least it isn't the point to anyone who uses any of the other skill rules. It's that when you character can break the world record for the long jump every single time he tries, he'll still take a year to forge his own plate mail. And it won't even be magic, it'll just be masterwork. Which might be realistic, but the rest of the game left real behind about a handful of levels ago. At level 15 with max craft ranks and a few feats you should be able to forge a replacement hand, regardless of class. Okay maybe your game isn't up to Army of Darkness or Krynn, but there should be benifits for having the craft skill other then if you're a wizard. Edit: to Drade. Make that longsword masterwork. Now it's 3150 sp. For level 7 (when a masterwork blade is commonplace) you've got a DC 15 check and probably a +15 bonus to Craft. With magical aid it shouldn't be hard to kick that up to +24 and thus we boost the DC by 10 to make the item faster as theres no failure chance. DC 25, average check 35, thus each week you get 875sp of work done. Your masterwork blade will be done in 4 weeks, or 4 times a long as it took you to make your normal longsword. Despite the fact that at level 7 your blades should be at least +1 magical. Now make the blade adamantine. Yeah.... It takes more time to create less useful items per level. Something is wrong.
AAB 06-18-07, 05:38 PM	that is very true. i once had to stop adventuring while my character made a suit of adamantine battle plate. damn, that stuff's expensive.
BW0222 06-18-07, 06:15 PM	Kevin Andrew Murphy, That doesn't mean the crafting rules make sense, with it taking ten times as long to make the same necklace out of gold instead of silver. The posts where in response to someone saying that is was tedious and others saying that it was unworkable. If you want to go back to the realistic arguements, go back to the first dozen or so posts. Most folks gave up on that arguement a long time ago. They are realistic enough. As for gold vs. silver... it doesn't take ten times as long to craft. Both are trade goods. You can't craft a bar of gold or silver. They have fixed values. Now, if you make a gold or silver item (say a necklace) very little of their value has anything two do with what they are made out of. The value of the weight of silver and gold in a 0.1 once necklace is maybe 1sp vs. 1gp. Making a hundred tiny links, a small heart, treating the metals, etc., etc. is where the value is. You set the value and quality of the item. In terms of jewlery, what it is made of is pretty secondary. You can make a 500gp silver necklace or a 1gp gold necklace. That doesn't mean that the silver necklace has 10lbs of silver in it. The rest of the materials comes in say molds, flakes, solvents, materials wasted in creation, oils, making that perfect thickness for the chain, gem stones, etc., etc. However, most folks work gold to a much higher standard. They adorn it with more intricate designs, gemstones, more fancy shapes, etc. because it carries more status. No point in making a 1gp gold ring or a 500gp silver ring. I'm all for occasionally slowing down the pace of adventuring, but it's more elegant to simply say "It takes two months to make a short sword" rather than automatically using a formula which produces results which are half the time at odds with reality. But wouldn't skilled folks make certain items faster? Wouldn't folks with assistants, better tools, etc.? Honestly, if someone is making a suit of full plate, does it surprise me that a master dwarven smith expert with 15 ranks, skill focus, masterwork tools, five skilled assistants, etc. can make it in have the time as someone barely able to make it? No. Seems realistic to me. The realism arguement is silly. Doesn't a person with 15 ranks in jump, jump better than someone with no ranks? Why isn't it realistic that some folks can either produce better quality work in the same period of time, or produce the same quality of work in a reduced time.