Craven feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Craven feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WinDReiN
05-16-07, 04:04 AM Is there a errata for this feat or is it the same as in Champions of Ruin?
Egres
05-16-07, 06:15 AM No errata.

And yes, sounds broken.

Stupidly broken.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-16-07, 06:30 AM Oh, yes. Because +3.5 damage which only applies some of the time and not against several major categories of creatures is just *so* powerful compared to Weapon Specialization, that pinnacle of powerful feats. And it comes with a saving throw penalty too!
WinDReiN
05-16-07, 06:33 AM Please let's not get into how broken this feat is.
I just asked if there is an errata and got my answer.
I started the thread and would like to end it here.
Thanks.
CantripN
05-16-07, 06:35 AM Oh, yes. Because +3.5 damage which only applies some of the time and not against several major categories of creatures is just *so* powerful compared to Weapon Specialization, that pinnacle of powerful feats. And it comes with a saving throw penalty too!

Read the feat, NOOB!

It's +1 damage / level for every SA. That's a LOT.

EDIT: In case it's not clear, I'm joking...
runestar
05-16-07, 06:37 AM On the downside, you cannot be immune to fear.
And considering a rogue's likely will saves...:P
Egres
05-16-07, 07:27 AM Oh, yes. Because +3.5 damage which only applies some of the time and not against several major categories of creatures is just *so* powerful compared to Weapon Specialization, that pinnacle of powerful feats. And it comes with a saving throw penalty too!

What are you babbling about?

1) It's not +3,5, but +1/level.

Do your math and try again.

2) the feat applies to your character level: this means that you only need a single 1d6 sneak attack and then multiclass to benefit from it.

3) +1/level means that, for example, at 10th level you are adding +10 damage, that means 3d6 (10,5) more than a normal sneak attack damage.

At 20th level you are adding something like 6d6 (21) damage, where a single +1d6 is en Epic feat.

Next time, read, think and then post.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-16-07, 07:42 AM Okay, so I got it mixed up with the +1d6 one.

All the same, it's no more than decent at +1/level. Yes, it adds a fair chunk of damage, but only some of the time - and by 20th level when it's doing +20 damage, you're going to have a hard time finding things that it will still work against, so the average output will be much, much lower.
Egres
05-16-07, 08:42 AM Okay, so I got it mixed up with the +1d6 one.

All the same, it's no more than decent at +1/level. Yes, it adds a fair chunk of damage, but only some of the time - and by 20th level when it's doing +20 damage, you're going to have a hard time finding things that it will still work against, so the average output will be much, much lower.

Compare it to every other sneak attack related feat, and you'll find that it's way better.
runestar
05-16-07, 09:03 AM This feat seems very useful if you have monsters splash 1 lv of rogue, since its benefit is based off HD, rather than rogue lvs.

Imagine a kraken with 1 lv of rogue. Each of its tentacles deals an extra 1d6+21 sneak attack damage. Or a dragon, with its many natural attacks. The possibilities are endless...:cool:
ibayboy
05-16-07, 09:16 AM Shall i add that this extra damage could be multiplied on a crit, as it is not expressed as 'extra dice'. But that is up for a bit of debate, so maybe i won't mention it.
runestar
05-16-07, 09:26 AM Shall i add that this extra damage could be multiplied on a crit, as it is not expressed as 'extra dice'. But that is up for a bit of debate, so maybe i won't mention it.
It probably won't. It improves your base sneak attack dice, and as such, ultimately remains a variable, which is not multiplied on a crit.

For example, a 1st lv rogue with said feat deals 1d6+1 sneak attack damage, or any number between 2 and 7. Anyways, the rogue entry does state that sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a crit.
ibayboy
05-16-07, 10:03 AM It probably won't. It improves your base sneak attack dice, and as such, ultimately remains a variable, which is not multiplied on a crit.

For example, a 1st lv rogue with said feat deals 1d6+1 sneak attack damage, or any number between 2 and 7. Anyways, the rogue entry does state that sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a crit.

Yeah, i have a character with Craven, TWF using a keen scimitar and a keen kukri, i don't multiply it.
Egres
05-16-07, 11:44 AM Please let's not get into how broken this feat is.
I just asked if there is an errata and got my answer.

May I ask you, then, why you asked for errata?

What did make you think that the feat needs an errata?
WinDReiN
05-16-07, 12:06 PM Yes, I think the feat is broken, thus asked if an errata exists.
DarkRhystar
05-16-07, 12:45 PM Craven damage is multiplied on a critical. It's +X damage, just like Weapon Specialization.
CantripN
05-16-07, 01:02 PM Craven damage is multiplied on a critical. It's +X damage, just like Weapon Specialization.

See, we'd rather not go there. You can either treat it as a separate static modifier like you do (and the fact the rules say Bonus Dice, and not variables don't get multiplied...), or we can use the logic of Magic Missile and the fact it requires Sneak Attack to acquire to say it's nd6+level damage, which is a variable. Either way is understandable.
runestar
05-16-07, 10:52 PM Craven damage is multiplied on a critical. It's +X damage, just like Weapon Specialization.
Hardly. Just think of it as letting you roll a 6-sided die with numbers ranging from X to X+5, rather than just 1 to 6, where X is the bonus sneak attack damage granted.:)
ibayboy
05-16-07, 11:20 PM haha, my work here is done. :D sorry guys
DarkRhystar
05-17-07, 01:07 AM haha, my work here is done. :D sorry guys

Well there's no shame in having a more interesting discussion since the OP was apparently satisfied by the earlier responses. :)

Hardly. Just think of it as letting you roll a 6-sided die with numbers ranging from X to X+5, rather than just 1 to 6, where X is the bonus sneak attack damage granted.:)

You can pretend it's like that if you like, but it doesn't work that way.

It gives +X damage. Damage not expressed in dice is multiplied on a critical.
runestar
05-17-07, 01:11 AM It gives +X damage. Damage not expressed in dice is multiplied on a critical.
Technically correct, but ultimately irrelevant because of a particular clause.:)

Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

And the bonus damage from craven is still extra sneak attack damage, and it applies to sneak attack, and thus remains a variable die value, as compared to weapon spec, which applies to the base weapon, and is thus treated as a fixed value which is multiplied on a crit.
Bopple
05-17-07, 01:20 AM It could have been a reasonable feat, if it forbade immunity to mind-affecting effects(which is a must-have at higher lvl) rather than immunity to fear.
pmurray@bigpond.com
05-17-07, 02:17 AM Is there a errata for this feat or is it the same as in Champions of Ruin?

Is craven in any other sourcebook aside from Champions of Ruin?

I'd like to take it ... but I wont, for fluff reasons.
DarkRhystar
05-17-07, 02:30 AM Technically correct, but ultimately irrelevant because of a particular clause.:)

And the bonus damage from craven is still extra sneak attack damage, and it applies to sneak attack, and thus remains a variable die value, as compared to weapon spec, which applies to the base weapon, and is thus treated as a fixed value which is multiplied on a crit.

No it is not.

While the damage is added when a Sneak Attack is scored, nowhere in the description of Craven is the extra damage labeled as "sneak attack" damage. The damage is untyped and fixed, as is Weapon Specialization's damage.

The passage you quoted is specifically referring to the +xd6 damage given in the Rogue's entry. Were we to extend that to other damage, you would have to extend it to all damage the Rogue deals on a Sneak Attack which surely is nonsense.

Semantics, I know, but RAW none-the-less.
pmurray@bigpond.com
05-18-07, 12:15 AM No it is not.

Agreed. Criticals multiply bonuses but not dice. The extra d6es from sneak attack or a flaming weapon are not multiplied. The extra bonuses from strength or from craven or (OMG :shocked:) Blood in the Water are.
runestar
05-18-07, 12:18 AM While the damage is added when a Sneak Attack is scored, nowhere in the description of Craven is the extra damage labeled as "sneak attack" damage. The damage is untyped and fixed, as is Weapon Specialization's damage.
Fair enough...it says that it merely lets you deal extra damage when attacking with a sneak attack. It does not explicitly state that it actually increases the amount of sneak attack damage you actually do. In light of such a technicality, I will concede on this issue for now.:)
NineInchNall
05-18-07, 12:33 PM Compare it to every other sneak attack related feat, and you'll find that it's way better.

That doesn't mean it's broken. Weapon Supremacy is significantly better than other Fighter feats, but it's still not broken.
Alvoros Darkleaf
05-18-07, 05:35 PM Ridiculously broken. My DM laughed when I suggested I might take it, and we have some pretty nastly damage dealers.

Better than than some epic feats: Improved Sneak Attack? Why would I take that...I'll take Craven thank you!

Alvo
StruckingFuggle
05-19-07, 03:15 AM Better than than some epic feats

Yeah, but there's plenty of Epic feats that have no real business being epic, at all; and some feats out there that for different characters are better than epic feats - for example, Power Attack. And yeah, Craven.
cato
05-19-07, 03:39 PM There used to be a feat that converted all ur sneak attack dice to d8s :p

cant remember where it is though but its wizards
Alvoros Darkleaf
05-19-07, 11:22 PM There used to be a feat that converted all ur sneak attack dice to d8s :p

cant remember where it is though but its wizards

Yes....it exists (Sacred Strike - Book of Exalted Deeds)....but:

1) It is a feat that explicity states that it must be granted by the DM as it is a god-granted feat. Often granted as a reward for some quest or great act by the diety or requires a sacred vow- you just can't take it on a whim.

2) If you ever commit an act of evil...you lose the feat benefits.

3) It only is d8 against evil (which I'll give you is likely to be every enemy you ever face)...but there are "some" neutral enemies out there.

So, this one gives you an average (at 20th level) of about +10 damage and requires godly (DM) intervention, whereas Craven averages about +23 with no DM intervention.

Big difference.

Alvo
cato
05-20-07, 02:23 AM Yes....it exists (Sacred Strike - Book of Exalted Deeds)....but:

1) It is a feat that explicity states that it must be granted by the DM as it is a god-granted feat. Often granted as a reward for some quest or great act by the diety or requires a sacred vow- you just can't take it on a whim.

2) If you ever commit an act of evil...you lose the feat benefits.

3) It only is d8 against evil (which I'll give you is likely to be every enemy you ever face)...but there are "some" neutral enemies out there.

So, this one gives you an average (at 20th level) of about +10 damage and requires godly (DM) intervention, whereas Craven averages about +23 with no DM intervention.

Big difference.

Alvo

Good points, but it seems the feat only starts to get overpowered at really high levels, so maybe it should have a cap of 10-15 or something since it only works on sneak attacks?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WinDReiN 05-16-07, 04:04 AM	Is there a errata for this feat or is it the same as in Champions of Ruin?
Egres 05-16-07, 06:15 AM	No errata. And yes, sounds broken. Stupidly broken.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-16-07, 06:30 AM	Oh, yes. Because +3.5 damage which only applies some of the time and not against several major categories of creatures is just so powerful compared to Weapon Specialization, that pinnacle of powerful feats. And it comes with a saving throw penalty too!
WinDReiN 05-16-07, 06:33 AM	Please let's not get into how broken this feat is. I just asked if there is an errata and got my answer. I started the thread and would like to end it here. Thanks.
CantripN 05-16-07, 06:35 AM	Oh, yes. Because +3.5 damage which only applies some of the time and not against several major categories of creatures is just so powerful compared to Weapon Specialization, that pinnacle of powerful feats. And it comes with a saving throw penalty too! Read the feat, NOOB! It's +1 damage / level for every SA. That's a LOT. EDIT: In case it's not clear, I'm joking...
runestar 05-16-07, 06:37 AM	On the downside, you cannot be immune to fear. And considering a rogue's likely will saves...:P
Egres 05-16-07, 07:27 AM	Oh, yes. Because +3.5 damage which only applies some of the time and not against several major categories of creatures is just so powerful compared to Weapon Specialization, that pinnacle of powerful feats. And it comes with a saving throw penalty too! What are you babbling about? 1) It's not +3,5, but +1/level. Do your math and try again. 2) the feat applies to your character level: this means that you only need a single 1d6 sneak attack and then multiclass to benefit from it. 3) +1/level means that, for example, at 10th level you are adding +10 damage, that means 3d6 (10,5) more than a normal sneak attack damage. At 20th level you are adding something like 6d6 (21) damage, where a single +1d6 is en Epic feat. Next time, read, think and then post.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-16-07, 07:42 AM	Okay, so I got it mixed up with the +1d6 one. All the same, it's no more than decent at +1/level. Yes, it adds a fair chunk of damage, but only some of the time - and by 20th level when it's doing +20 damage, you're going to have a hard time finding things that it will still work against, so the average output will be much, much lower.
Egres 05-16-07, 08:42 AM	Okay, so I got it mixed up with the +1d6 one. All the same, it's no more than decent at +1/level. Yes, it adds a fair chunk of damage, but only some of the time - and by 20th level when it's doing +20 damage, you're going to have a hard time finding things that it will still work against, so the average output will be much, much lower. Compare it to every other sneak attack related feat, and you'll find that it's way better.
runestar 05-16-07, 09:03 AM	This feat seems very useful if you have monsters splash 1 lv of rogue, since its benefit is based off HD, rather than rogue lvs. Imagine a kraken with 1 lv of rogue. Each of its tentacles deals an extra 1d6+21 sneak attack damage. Or a dragon, with its many natural attacks. The possibilities are endless...:cool:
ibayboy 05-16-07, 09:16 AM	Shall i add that this extra damage could be multiplied on a crit, as it is not expressed as 'extra dice'. But that is up for a bit of debate, so maybe i won't mention it.
runestar 05-16-07, 09:26 AM	Shall i add that this extra damage could be multiplied on a crit, as it is not expressed as 'extra dice'. But that is up for a bit of debate, so maybe i won't mention it. It probably won't. It improves your base sneak attack dice, and as such, ultimately remains a variable, which is not multiplied on a crit. For example, a 1st lv rogue with said feat deals 1d6+1 sneak attack damage, or any number between 2 and 7. Anyways, the rogue entry does state that sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a crit.
ibayboy 05-16-07, 10:03 AM	It probably won't. It improves your base sneak attack dice, and as such, ultimately remains a variable, which is not multiplied on a crit. For example, a 1st lv rogue with said feat deals 1d6+1 sneak attack damage, or any number between 2 and 7. Anyways, the rogue entry does state that sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a crit. Yeah, i have a character with Craven, TWF using a keen scimitar and a keen kukri, i don't multiply it.
Egres 05-16-07, 11:44 AM	Please let's not get into how broken this feat is. I just asked if there is an errata and got my answer. May I ask you, then, why you asked for errata? What did make you think that the feat needs an errata?
WinDReiN 05-16-07, 12:06 PM	Yes, I think the feat is broken, thus asked if an errata exists.
DarkRhystar 05-16-07, 12:45 PM	Craven damage is multiplied on a critical. It's +X damage, just like Weapon Specialization.
CantripN 05-16-07, 01:02 PM	Craven damage is multiplied on a critical. It's +X damage, just like Weapon Specialization. See, we'd rather not go there. You can either treat it as a separate static modifier like you do (and the fact the rules say Bonus Dice, and not variables don't get multiplied...), or we can use the logic of Magic Missile and the fact it requires Sneak Attack to acquire to say it's nd6+level damage, which is a variable. Either way is understandable.
runestar 05-16-07, 10:52 PM	Craven damage is multiplied on a critical. It's +X damage, just like Weapon Specialization. Hardly. Just think of it as letting you roll a 6-sided die with numbers ranging from X to X+5, rather than just 1 to 6, where X is the bonus sneak attack damage granted.:)
ibayboy 05-16-07, 11:20 PM	haha, my work here is done. :D sorry guys
DarkRhystar 05-17-07, 01:07 AM	haha, my work here is done. :D sorry guys Well there's no shame in having a more interesting discussion since the OP was apparently satisfied by the earlier responses. :) Hardly. Just think of it as letting you roll a 6-sided die with numbers ranging from X to X+5, rather than just 1 to 6, where X is the bonus sneak attack damage granted.:) You can pretend it's like that if you like, but it doesn't work that way. It gives +X damage. Damage not expressed in dice is multiplied on a critical.
runestar 05-17-07, 01:11 AM	It gives +X damage. Damage not expressed in dice is multiplied on a critical. Technically correct, but ultimately irrelevant because of a particular clause.:) Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. And the bonus damage from craven is still extra sneak attack damage, and it applies to sneak attack, and thus remains a variable die value, as compared to weapon spec, which applies to the base weapon, and is thus treated as a fixed value which is multiplied on a crit.
Bopple 05-17-07, 01:20 AM	It could have been a reasonable feat, if it forbade immunity to mind-affecting effects(which is a must-have at higher lvl) rather than immunity to fear.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-17-07, 02:17 AM	Is there a errata for this feat or is it the same as in Champions of Ruin? Is craven in any other sourcebook aside from Champions of Ruin? I'd like to take it ... but I wont, for fluff reasons.
DarkRhystar 05-17-07, 02:30 AM	Technically correct, but ultimately irrelevant because of a particular clause.:) And the bonus damage from craven is still extra sneak attack damage, and it applies to sneak attack, and thus remains a variable die value, as compared to weapon spec, which applies to the base weapon, and is thus treated as a fixed value which is multiplied on a crit. No it is not. While the damage is added when a Sneak Attack is scored, nowhere in the description of Craven is the extra damage labeled as "sneak attack" damage. The damage is untyped and fixed, as is Weapon Specialization's damage. The passage you quoted is specifically referring to the +xd6 damage given in the Rogue's entry. Were we to extend that to other damage, you would have to extend it to all damage the Rogue deals on a Sneak Attack which surely is nonsense. Semantics, I know, but RAW none-the-less.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-18-07, 12:15 AM	No it is not. Agreed. Criticals multiply bonuses but not dice. The extra d6es from sneak attack or a flaming weapon are not multiplied. The extra bonuses from strength or from craven or (OMG :shocked:) Blood in the Water are.
runestar 05-18-07, 12:18 AM	While the damage is added when a Sneak Attack is scored, nowhere in the description of Craven is the extra damage labeled as "sneak attack" damage. The damage is untyped and fixed, as is Weapon Specialization's damage. Fair enough...it says that it merely lets you deal extra damage when attacking with a sneak attack. It does not explicitly state that it actually increases the amount of sneak attack damage you actually do. In light of such a technicality, I will concede on this issue for now.:)
NineInchNall 05-18-07, 12:33 PM	Compare it to every other sneak attack related feat, and you'll find that it's way better. That doesn't mean it's broken. Weapon Supremacy is significantly better than other Fighter feats, but it's still not broken.
Alvoros Darkleaf 05-18-07, 05:35 PM	Ridiculously broken. My DM laughed when I suggested I might take it, and we have some pretty nastly damage dealers. Better than than some epic feats: Improved Sneak Attack? Why would I take that...I'll take Craven thank you! Alvo
StruckingFuggle 05-19-07, 03:15 AM	Better than than some epic feats Yeah, but there's plenty of Epic feats that have no real business being epic, at all; and some feats out there that for different characters are better than epic feats - for example, Power Attack. And yeah, Craven.
cato 05-19-07, 03:39 PM	There used to be a feat that converted all ur sneak attack dice to d8s :p cant remember where it is though but its wizards
Alvoros Darkleaf 05-19-07, 11:22 PM	There used to be a feat that converted all ur sneak attack dice to d8s :p cant remember where it is though but its wizards Yes....it exists (Sacred Strike - Book of Exalted Deeds)....but: 1) It is a feat that explicity states that it must be granted by the DM as it is a god-granted feat. Often granted as a reward for some quest or great act by the diety or requires a sacred vow- you just can't take it on a whim. 2) If you ever commit an act of evil...you lose the feat benefits. 3) It only is d8 against evil (which I'll give you is likely to be every enemy you ever face)...but there are "some" neutral enemies out there. So, this one gives you an average (at 20th level) of about +10 damage and requires godly (DM) intervention, whereas Craven averages about +23 with no DM intervention. Big difference. Alvo
cato 05-20-07, 02:23 AM	Yes....it exists (Sacred Strike - Book of Exalted Deeds)....but: 1) It is a feat that explicity states that it must be granted by the DM as it is a god-granted feat. Often granted as a reward for some quest or great act by the diety or requires a sacred vow- you just can't take it on a whim. 2) If you ever commit an act of evil...you lose the feat benefits. 3) It only is d8 against evil (which I'll give you is likely to be every enemy you ever face)...but there are "some" neutral enemies out there. So, this one gives you an average (at 20th level) of about +10 damage and requires godly (DM) intervention, whereas Craven averages about +23 with no DM intervention. Big difference. Alvo Good points, but it seems the feat only starts to get overpowered at really high levels, so maybe it should have a cap of 10-15 or something since it only works on sneak attacks?