Cross Access Spell Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cross Access Spell Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eklypse0
05-24-07, 01:48 AM Cross Access Spell

Prerequisite: Multi-class Caster

Benefit: With this feat, the character who has access to multiple types of magic due to different classes of caster, can chose one spell from one of her classes to be accessed from the other's spell slot.

For example: A Wizard / Priest would like to be able to cast more Cure Light Wounds per day then their normal single class allows. Taking the Feat For Cure Light Wounds -> Wizard allows the character to memorize Cure Light Wounds with the Wizard slots as if it were 'Mastered'. This effectively adds the spell to the spell list of the character's other Class.

The spell slot must be of the same level as the previous class that the spell is being taken from. It may be slot that the class normally gets the spell at a lower or higher level then normal.

This does not allow the caster to teach other caster's to learn the spell in question.
risner
05-24-07, 06:15 AM Currently a much less powerful version of your feat is ONLY available as a 2nd level power on a PrC class (Ultimate Magnus's Expanded Spell Knowledge power) and as a result the value of this ability may very well be beyond the power of one feat.

You may (at minimum) want to break this up into two feats (one that does very little if anything and the second one that grants the power you posted.)

Another problem you have is the Expanded Spell Knowledge ability is balanced around both classes being arcane. When you start crossing Arcane to Divine boundaries, you run into issues with spell level. Not all Divine spells should be translated into Arcane at the same level (like Arcane Prepared to Arcane Spontaneous can be.) So you need something that creates rules based on what the Spell does. Something based the DMG p35/36 charts.

For example:
If going from Arcane to Divine for a damaging spell, increase the spell level by one (Fireball would then be a 4th level Divine spell.)

If the spell is Conjuration Healing and going to Arcane, then increase the spell level by 4 (Cure Light Wounds would then be a 5th level Arcane spell.)

If the spell is a Druid spell that deals with Plants or Animals, then increase the spell level by 1 for any other class taking the spell.

Unfortunately you will end up with a set of rules at least as large (maybe more) than the DMG's section on creating new spells since any use of your feat is in effect "creating a new spell."
Eklypse0
05-24-07, 06:45 AM I may be powerful if it gave access to spells that you normally didn't have access to. But It is only letting you use spell slots for a specific spell you can already cast in your other class.

Whether this is something of another level wouldn't make too much of a difference, only because there is benefits of having spells that are higher and lower levels then normal. Lower level spells are great because they use lower level slots, which tend to be more plentiful, to a point. Higher levels are harder to resist in the case of attack spells.

(BTW: Could you post the reference to 'Ultimate Magnus's Expanded Spell Knowledge'?)
ff6shadow
05-24-07, 07:03 AM I don't see an issue with it. For a character to qualify, their a theurge type character anyway. Since a character like that is disadvantaged already (lost caster level, a spell level behind) Taking a feat so you can use a spell from one side in spell slots on the other is hardly that powerful. Doubly so since it only affects one feat.

I definetly would allow such a feat in my campaign.
Eklypse0
05-24-07, 09:01 AM Just wondering, since it seems slightly under powered to let the caster have the spell cross one class, what about letting the spell as a learned / part of their list through-out all their caster classes?

Shain / Eklypse
risner
05-24-07, 05:39 PM (BTW: Could you post the reference to 'Ultimate Magnus's Expanded Spell Knowledge'?)

Complete Mage page 80ish from memory.

Just wondering, since it seems slightly under powered to let the caster have the spell cross one class, what about letting the spell as a learned / part of their list through-out all their caster classes?

Again, you are adding on additional benefits to a feat that in my view is already well beyond the scope of existing WotC power level.
kalstrand
05-24-07, 07:36 PM The problem with this feat is now you have a Wizard/Cleric using all his Cleric spell slots to cast his more powerful Wizard spells or vice versa depending on your view of which spell list is better.
Mark_Constantino
05-24-07, 07:59 PM You would also have problems with Divine Casters using their slots for Arcane Strikes.
Eklypse0
05-24-07, 08:25 PM The problem with this feat is now you have a Wizard/Cleric using all his Cleric spell slots to cast his more powerful Wizard spells or vice versa depending on your view of which spell list is better.

Both casters have to memorize their spells. It is part of their brain function. The Feat simply lets you understand the spell better so you can use another classes slots to Cast.

If you look at it in the case of an Arcane caster memorizing Divine spells, the Feat allows them to Copy / Paste a single Divine spell into their Arcane slots. Divine users instead of asking a deity to fill their slots, keeps one or more open and copy / pastes the Arcane spell into them. Which of which you can normally cast anyhow so it isn't really giving you an ability you didn't have before. It only gives you the option of casting it more times then you normally could before.

The Feat isn't really out of Scope.

An example would be A Fire Domain Cleric / Wizard is allowed to have all their 1st-level spell slots be Burning Hands, which is acceptable right out of PHB. Burning Hands is a prime example of of an Arcane attack spell that certain Divine casters can have access to.

You would also have problems with Divine Casters using their slots for Arcane Strikes.

Arcane Strike? What book is that spell out of?
risner
05-24-07, 11:15 PM The Feat simply lets you understand the spell better so you can use another classes slots to Cast.

We get it, really. We understand your concept, it is just that it doesn't fix the balance mechanics of the game. There are hundreds of examples (Flame Strike, All Paladin/Ranger spells, etc) of spells that the balance mold when you introduce this feat.

You have two options:
1) Ignore the balance issues and greatly increase the power of the character with this feat.

2) Write 5 pages of rules to adjudicate all spell translations from list to list.
Eklypse0
05-25-07, 12:48 AM You have two options:
1) Ignore the balance issues and greatly increase the power of the character with this feat.

2) Write 5 pages of rules to adjudicate all spell translations from list to list.

Actually, I was thinking about much simpler concepts. I don't see a balance issue you may be talking about. A spell is a spell. If your character has access to it already, why make things complicated and require the extra bookkeeping at all to segrigate which spells are for which?

I think of all the Games I played and own, D&D is the only game that segregates spells to this point. Only spell lists that have diametrically apposed power bases can't be used together. None of those has problems with play balance due to spell issues.

(I have a floor ceiling bookshelf that has nothing but RPG books. I still need more room for them all. I have been playing D&D from the red books for Basic edition. Have all three and 1/2 editions. Though, I have slowed down on buying them. In total.. I think I have around $3,000.00 in rpg rule books.. not including Computer games.)
risner
05-25-07, 08:58 AM If your character has access to it already, why make things complicated and require the extra bookkeeping at all to segrigate which spells are for which?

If you don't see the balance problem, then you are not looking. The existence of the balance problem is evidenced by the effort they take to not do exactly what you want to do. If you really want to do what you propose, then you need to redesign the magic system in D&D to be more like Arcana Evolved (I spell that right? I don't like the system) or some other system that doesn't have class lists at all. In a system like that, there is no concept of spells that have different caster levels in different classes.
Bob Loblaw
05-25-07, 10:07 AM There is a feat from Dragon #325 called Alternative Source Spell. How does this feat compare?
Eklypse0
05-25-07, 11:42 AM If you don't see the balance problem, then you are not looking. The existence of the balance problem is evidenced by the effort they take to not do exactly what you want to do. If you really want to do what you propose, then you need to redesign the magic system in D&D to be more like Arcana Evolved (I spell that right? I don't like the system) or some other system that doesn't have class lists at all. In a system like that, there is no concept of spells that have different caster levels in different classes.

Yes, Arcana Evolved. Funny, I prefer that a _lot_ more then the standard Player's Handbook setup. It has a lot of exciting features in it for a old hand at RPing. After all, it was the first book to come up with Racial Levels. The Races in it are new and Fresh. Great set of classes. Not to mention it is _almost_ a Player's Handbook, DM's guide and monster manual in one book.

But actually, there is three systems out there published for d20. Arcana Evolved (or Unearthed for the first edition of it), Colors of Magic, and the best of three, Elements of Magic.

Arcana Evolved doesn't even have a concept of Divine magic. All spells are Arcane. And yes, arcane casters have wound curing.

Colors of Magic have spells broken down in to 8 colors rather then the standard Evocation / Divination setup. deities are not required again to use Healing Spells. (Yellow is the domain of healing spells.)

Elements of Magic is a point based spell system in which the casters chose lists of effects that they have access to, such as Create Metal, Evoke Fire or Heal Humanoid. You have the ability to have both memorized spells (normal spell casting action) or can cast spells on the fly (2 round casting time). Each level you gain as a caster gives you access to more lists and more spell points to cast your spells.

It is sort of more advanced because you can pretty much do anything with it, from rebuild the typical d20 PH spells to going your own effects.

Want to cast a Ball of fire on the spot you are standing on, but not hit your self or allies? Certainly!

Take Evoke Fire of 3d6 (1d6 is free 1 point for each additional d6 for a cost of 2) and add in Area of Effect 20' Radius ( 1 point per 10' radius for 2 more points) and 1 point for Discerning, so you don't hurt your friends for a 5 point spell total. 5 point spell is about equivalent to a caster level of 5, or effectively a 3rd level spell in d20 terms.

You can also do the same thing with Heal Humanoid, Just change out Evoke Fire to Heal Humanoid and now you will Heal everyone you want to within 20' for 3d6 damage.

The stuff I prefer is already out there and published. Still perfectly balanced. Just not the same 'Flavor' as Stone Chiseled 3.5.

Shain
strenoth
05-25-07, 12:09 PM Again, you are adding on additional benefits to a feat that in my view is already well beyond the scope of existing WotC power level.

Dragon Magazine 280 page 88 "Eldritch master"

Does not gain true caster levels, but does gain caster level for spell-power and bonus spells up to 5th level. Most relevant however:

At 4th and 8th level, the Eldritch Master can select one other class, and Add that classes ENTIRE list to their class list. Thus a sorcerer could now have a combined class spell list of Sorcerer, cleric, and one other of your choice

And of course, since the class gives bonus spells known, you can use the bonus spells to add low level spells to your spells known from this additional class list.

class also gives some nice other goodies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eklypse0 05-24-07, 01:48 AM	Cross Access Spell Prerequisite: Multi-class Caster Benefit: With this feat, the character who has access to multiple types of magic due to different classes of caster, can chose one spell from one of her classes to be accessed from the other's spell slot. For example: A Wizard / Priest would like to be able to cast more Cure Light Wounds per day then their normal single class allows. Taking the Feat For Cure Light Wounds -> Wizard allows the character to memorize Cure Light Wounds with the Wizard slots as if it were 'Mastered'. This effectively adds the spell to the spell list of the character's other Class. The spell slot must be of the same level as the previous class that the spell is being taken from. It may be slot that the class normally gets the spell at a lower or higher level then normal. This does not allow the caster to teach other caster's to learn the spell in question.
risner 05-24-07, 06:15 AM	Currently a much less powerful version of your feat is ONLY available as a 2nd level power on a PrC class (Ultimate Magnus's Expanded Spell Knowledge power) and as a result the value of this ability may very well be beyond the power of one feat. You may (at minimum) want to break this up into two feats (one that does very little if anything and the second one that grants the power you posted.) Another problem you have is the Expanded Spell Knowledge ability is balanced around both classes being arcane. When you start crossing Arcane to Divine boundaries, you run into issues with spell level. Not all Divine spells should be translated into Arcane at the same level (like Arcane Prepared to Arcane Spontaneous can be.) So you need something that creates rules based on what the Spell does. Something based the DMG p35/36 charts. For example: If going from Arcane to Divine for a damaging spell, increase the spell level by one (Fireball would then be a 4th level Divine spell.) If the spell is Conjuration Healing and going to Arcane, then increase the spell level by 4 (Cure Light Wounds would then be a 5th level Arcane spell.) If the spell is a Druid spell that deals with Plants or Animals, then increase the spell level by 1 for any other class taking the spell. Unfortunately you will end up with a set of rules at least as large (maybe more) than the DMG's section on creating new spells since any use of your feat is in effect "creating a new spell."
Eklypse0 05-24-07, 06:45 AM	I may be powerful if it gave access to spells that you normally didn't have access to. But It is only letting you use spell slots for a specific spell you can already cast in your other class. Whether this is something of another level wouldn't make too much of a difference, only because there is benefits of having spells that are higher and lower levels then normal. Lower level spells are great because they use lower level slots, which tend to be more plentiful, to a point. Higher levels are harder to resist in the case of attack spells. (BTW: Could you post the reference to 'Ultimate Magnus's Expanded Spell Knowledge'?)
ff6shadow 05-24-07, 07:03 AM	I don't see an issue with it. For a character to qualify, their a theurge type character anyway. Since a character like that is disadvantaged already (lost caster level, a spell level behind) Taking a feat so you can use a spell from one side in spell slots on the other is hardly that powerful. Doubly so since it only affects one feat. I definetly would allow such a feat in my campaign.
Eklypse0 05-24-07, 09:01 AM	Just wondering, since it seems slightly under powered to let the caster have the spell cross one class, what about letting the spell as a learned / part of their list through-out all their caster classes? Shain / Eklypse
risner 05-24-07, 05:39 PM	(BTW: Could you post the reference to 'Ultimate Magnus's Expanded Spell Knowledge'?) Complete Mage page 80ish from memory. Just wondering, since it seems slightly under powered to let the caster have the spell cross one class, what about letting the spell as a learned / part of their list through-out all their caster classes? Again, you are adding on additional benefits to a feat that in my view is already well beyond the scope of existing WotC power level.
kalstrand 05-24-07, 07:36 PM	The problem with this feat is now you have a Wizard/Cleric using all his Cleric spell slots to cast his more powerful Wizard spells or vice versa depending on your view of which spell list is better.
Mark_Constantino 05-24-07, 07:59 PM	You would also have problems with Divine Casters using their slots for Arcane Strikes.
Eklypse0 05-24-07, 08:25 PM	The problem with this feat is now you have a Wizard/Cleric using all his Cleric spell slots to cast his more powerful Wizard spells or vice versa depending on your view of which spell list is better. Both casters have to memorize their spells. It is part of their brain function. The Feat simply lets you understand the spell better so you can use another classes slots to Cast. If you look at it in the case of an Arcane caster memorizing Divine spells, the Feat allows them to Copy / Paste a single Divine spell into their Arcane slots. Divine users instead of asking a deity to fill their slots, keeps one or more open and copy / pastes the Arcane spell into them. Which of which you can normally cast anyhow so it isn't really giving you an ability you didn't have before. It only gives you the option of casting it more times then you normally could before. The Feat isn't really out of Scope. An example would be A Fire Domain Cleric / Wizard is allowed to have all their 1st-level spell slots be Burning Hands, which is acceptable right out of PHB. Burning Hands is a prime example of of an Arcane attack spell that certain Divine casters can have access to. You would also have problems with Divine Casters using their slots for Arcane Strikes. Arcane Strike? What book is that spell out of?
risner 05-24-07, 11:15 PM	The Feat simply lets you understand the spell better so you can use another classes slots to Cast. We get it, really. We understand your concept, it is just that it doesn't fix the balance mechanics of the game. There are hundreds of examples (Flame Strike, All Paladin/Ranger spells, etc) of spells that the balance mold when you introduce this feat. You have two options: 1) Ignore the balance issues and greatly increase the power of the character with this feat. 2) Write 5 pages of rules to adjudicate all spell translations from list to list.
Eklypse0 05-25-07, 12:48 AM	You have two options: 1) Ignore the balance issues and greatly increase the power of the character with this feat. 2) Write 5 pages of rules to adjudicate all spell translations from list to list. Actually, I was thinking about much simpler concepts. I don't see a balance issue you may be talking about. A spell is a spell. If your character has access to it already, why make things complicated and require the extra bookkeeping at all to segrigate which spells are for which? I think of all the Games I played and own, D&D is the only game that segregates spells to this point. Only spell lists that have diametrically apposed power bases can't be used together. None of those has problems with play balance due to spell issues. (I have a floor ceiling bookshelf that has nothing but RPG books. I still need more room for them all. I have been playing D&D from the red books for Basic edition. Have all three and 1/2 editions. Though, I have slowed down on buying them. In total.. I think I have around $3,000.00 in rpg rule books.. not including Computer games.)
risner 05-25-07, 08:58 AM	If your character has access to it already, why make things complicated and require the extra bookkeeping at all to segrigate which spells are for which? If you don't see the balance problem, then you are not looking. The existence of the balance problem is evidenced by the effort they take to not do exactly what you want to do. If you really want to do what you propose, then you need to redesign the magic system in D&D to be more like Arcana Evolved (I spell that right? I don't like the system) or some other system that doesn't have class lists at all. In a system like that, there is no concept of spells that have different caster levels in different classes.
Bob Loblaw 05-25-07, 10:07 AM	There is a feat from Dragon #325 called Alternative Source Spell. How does this feat compare?
Eklypse0 05-25-07, 11:42 AM	If you don't see the balance problem, then you are not looking. The existence of the balance problem is evidenced by the effort they take to not do exactly what you want to do. If you really want to do what you propose, then you need to redesign the magic system in D&D to be more like Arcana Evolved (I spell that right? I don't like the system) or some other system that doesn't have class lists at all. In a system like that, there is no concept of spells that have different caster levels in different classes. Yes, Arcana Evolved. Funny, I prefer that a _lot_ more then the standard Player's Handbook setup. It has a lot of exciting features in it for a old hand at RPing. After all, it was the first book to come up with Racial Levels. The Races in it are new and Fresh. Great set of classes. Not to mention it is _almost_ a Player's Handbook, DM's guide and monster manual in one book. But actually, there is three systems out there published for d20. Arcana Evolved (or Unearthed for the first edition of it), Colors of Magic, and the best of three, Elements of Magic. Arcana Evolved doesn't even have a concept of Divine magic. All spells are Arcane. And yes, arcane casters have wound curing. Colors of Magic have spells broken down in to 8 colors rather then the standard Evocation / Divination setup. deities are not required again to use Healing Spells. (Yellow is the domain of healing spells.) Elements of Magic is a point based spell system in which the casters chose lists of effects that they have access to, such as Create Metal, Evoke Fire or Heal Humanoid. You have the ability to have both memorized spells (normal spell casting action) or can cast spells on the fly (2 round casting time). Each level you gain as a caster gives you access to more lists and more spell points to cast your spells. It is sort of more advanced because you can pretty much do anything with it, from rebuild the typical d20 PH spells to going your own effects. Want to cast a Ball of fire on the spot you are standing on, but not hit your self or allies? Certainly! Take Evoke Fire of 3d6 (1d6 is free 1 point for each additional d6 for a cost of 2) and add in Area of Effect 20' Radius ( 1 point per 10' radius for 2 more points) and 1 point for Discerning, so you don't hurt your friends for a 5 point spell total. 5 point spell is about equivalent to a caster level of 5, or effectively a 3rd level spell in d20 terms. You can also do the same thing with Heal Humanoid, Just change out Evoke Fire to Heal Humanoid and now you will Heal everyone you want to within 20' for 3d6 damage. The stuff I prefer is already out there and published. Still perfectly balanced. Just not the same 'Flavor' as Stone Chiseled 3.5. Shain
strenoth 05-25-07, 12:09 PM	Again, you are adding on additional benefits to a feat that in my view is already well beyond the scope of existing WotC power level. Dragon Magazine 280 page 88 "Eldritch master" Does not gain true caster levels, but does gain caster level for spell-power and bonus spells up to 5th level. Most relevant however: At 4th and 8th level, the Eldritch Master can select one other class, and Add that classes ENTIRE list to their class list. Thus a sorcerer could now have a combined class spell list of Sorcerer, cleric, and one other of your choice And of course, since the class gives bonus spells known, you can use the bonus spells to add low level spells to your spells known from this additional class list. class also gives some nice other goodies.