Cross-Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cross-Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jachra
03-17-07, 06:44 PM Am I to understand correctly that you actually lose skills put into a cross-class skill, even if you later gain it as a class skill?

...Is there a good reason I shouldn't house rule this? I want to ENCOURAGE possible cross-class skill usage, not encourage my players never, ever to do so if they intend on multi-classing or taking a prestige class that grants it.
Frugal
03-17-07, 07:54 PM Am I to understand correctly that you actually lose skills put into a cross-class skill, even if you later gain it as a class skill?

...Is there a good reason I shouldn't house rule this? I want to ENCOURAGE possible cross-class skill usage, not encourage my players never, ever to do so if they intend on multi-classing or taking a prestige class that grants it.

Not sure what you're talking about, you always keep points invested in a skill. If you have a class and spend points on a cross-class skill it costs 2 points per rank. If you later take a class where the skill is a class skill you don't lose anything you've already bought, and further ranks (with that class' points) will only cost 1 point.

But like I said, I don't really know what you're referring to.
Jachra
03-18-07, 02:13 AM Example:
Fighter 1. Takes 2 ranks of balance (4 points.)
Rogue 1/Fighter 1. Has 2 ranks of balance, adds 3 to make it 5, costing 7 points in total.
Dhavaer
03-18-07, 02:20 AM Example:
Fighter 1. Takes 2 ranks of balance (4 points.)
Rogue 1/Fighter 1. Has 2 ranks of balance, adds 3 to make it 5, costing 7 points in total.

That's correct, yes.
Rerecros
03-18-07, 02:33 AM If you want to loose it go ahead, but you might wanna leave trained-only skills as is, and prestige classes will be easier to enter, and therefore less prestigious.
MystErikEry
03-18-07, 04:54 AM Example:
Fighter 1. Takes 2 ranks of balance (4 points.)
Rogue 1/Fighter 1. Has 2 ranks of balance, adds 3 to make it 5, costing 7 points in total.

You mean Fighter 1/Rogue 1.

Now if you went Fighter again, you'd still need to spend 2 Skill Points to raise it up to 6 total. It's a cross-class skill for the Fighter, so you pay cross-class for it, even though its maximum is HD+3 (as it's a class skill for at least one of your classes).

So it's not "wasted" skill points. If you want to raise a cross-class skill as another class, you have to spend more.

Sure, you could've just had 0 ranks of Balance, and then taken all 5 when you reach level 2 and take that level of Rogue (for 5 SP total, instead of 7), but then you didn't have the benefit earlier when you were straight Fighter.

This also means that Rogue1/Fighter1 has trouble keeping up with skills, since the Fighter won't have nearly enough Skill Points to raise all of the Rogue's chosen skills, nor will it have the skills on its class list (and thus require double expenditure).
Frugal
03-18-07, 09:35 AM Well the only "mistake" I can see in that example is not starting with the level in Rogue since you get 4x the skill points at 1st level.
Frugal
03-18-07, 10:49 AM I still fail to see what the OP is really getting at. Cross-class skills cost 2 points, class skills cost 1. Are you suggesting that once you gain a skill as a class skill it should always be considered a class skill (for points cost)?

Consider that gaining a level signifies that you've been working on certain abilities during the time that it took to level. If you take a level in fighter then you've been focusing on your martial prowess. Take a level in rogue? Then you've been focusing more on stealth and other rogue abilities. During that time, certain skills will be easier to learn (or improve) than others because the nature of focusing on certain abilities makes improvement in those skills natural. For instance, working on martial skills will naturally make you more fit so it doesn't take much effort to improve your swimming and climbing. But something like spellcraft would require a lot of arcane study in the nature of magic, it just doesn't really fit with improving your martial study so you're going to advance in it slower than somebody who's spending their time researching the nature of magic and new spells.
SALDAR
03-18-07, 11:30 AM Am I to understand correctly that you actually lose skills put into a cross-class skill, even if you later gain it as a class skill?

You haven't lost the skill points but because you chose a cross class skill to spend them on it cost you double at that time. You do not regain skill points once they have been spent and you haven't actually lost them since the character did gain ranks in the skill. It is like buying a book on Monday and then it goes on sale on Friday, you don't get the difference back.

I wouldn't houserule it otherwise. This isn't meant to discourage players from taking cross class skills, it just makes them think ahead and plan better for their character's future development. If a player knows that they are going to take a class that has a certain skill that is a cross class skill for their current class they should decide if it is worth the extra cost now as a cross class skill or if it is worth holding off until later to spend fewer skill points on it as a class skill.
Frugal
03-18-07, 11:39 AM I wouldn't houserule it otherwise. This isn't meant to discourage players from taking cross class skills, it just makes them think ahead and plan better for their character's future development. If a player knows that they are going to take a class that has a certain skill that is a cross class skill for their current class they should decide if it is worth the extra cost now as a cross class skill or if it is worth holding off until later to spend fewer skill points on it as a class skill.

Exactly, especially considering that the max ranks for any class skill is HD+3 means you can pump up a skill pretty well with only 1 level in the class if you already have a few HD, but it does involve some planning.
Decinious
03-18-07, 12:16 PM The main reason not to house rule skills would be making the plethora of feats that make skills class skills useless, creating a chain reaction making prestige classes that require those feats make you take a useless feat. If someone has a problem with wanting cross class skill cheaper, tell them to be human and take the Able Learner feat pg 150 Races of Destiny. That feat makes all skills only cost 1 skill point per rank, though you are still limited to 1/2 ranks in cross class skills.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jachra 03-17-07, 06:44 PM	Am I to understand correctly that you actually lose skills put into a cross-class skill, even if you later gain it as a class skill? ...Is there a good reason I shouldn't house rule this? I want to ENCOURAGE possible cross-class skill usage, not encourage my players never, ever to do so if they intend on multi-classing or taking a prestige class that grants it.
Frugal 03-17-07, 07:54 PM	Am I to understand correctly that you actually lose skills put into a cross-class skill, even if you later gain it as a class skill? ...Is there a good reason I shouldn't house rule this? I want to ENCOURAGE possible cross-class skill usage, not encourage my players never, ever to do so if they intend on multi-classing or taking a prestige class that grants it. Not sure what you're talking about, you always keep points invested in a skill. If you have a class and spend points on a cross-class skill it costs 2 points per rank. If you later take a class where the skill is a class skill you don't lose anything you've already bought, and further ranks (with that class' points) will only cost 1 point. But like I said, I don't really know what you're referring to.
Jachra 03-18-07, 02:13 AM	Example: Fighter 1. Takes 2 ranks of balance (4 points.) Rogue 1/Fighter 1. Has 2 ranks of balance, adds 3 to make it 5, costing 7 points in total.
Dhavaer 03-18-07, 02:20 AM	Example: Fighter 1. Takes 2 ranks of balance (4 points.) Rogue 1/Fighter 1. Has 2 ranks of balance, adds 3 to make it 5, costing 7 points in total. That's correct, yes.
Rerecros 03-18-07, 02:33 AM	If you want to loose it go ahead, but you might wanna leave trained-only skills as is, and prestige classes will be easier to enter, and therefore less prestigious.
MystErikEry 03-18-07, 04:54 AM	Example: Fighter 1. Takes 2 ranks of balance (4 points.) Rogue 1/Fighter 1. Has 2 ranks of balance, adds 3 to make it 5, costing 7 points in total. You mean Fighter 1/Rogue 1. Now if you went Fighter again, you'd still need to spend 2 Skill Points to raise it up to 6 total. It's a cross-class skill for the Fighter, so you pay cross-class for it, even though its maximum is HD+3 (as it's a class skill for at least one of your classes). So it's not "wasted" skill points. If you want to raise a cross-class skill as another class, you have to spend more. Sure, you could've just had 0 ranks of Balance, and then taken all 5 when you reach level 2 and take that level of Rogue (for 5 SP total, instead of 7), but then you didn't have the benefit earlier when you were straight Fighter. This also means that Rogue1/Fighter1 has trouble keeping up with skills, since the Fighter won't have nearly enough Skill Points to raise all of the Rogue's chosen skills, nor will it have the skills on its class list (and thus require double expenditure).
Frugal 03-18-07, 09:35 AM	Well the only "mistake" I can see in that example is not starting with the level in Rogue since you get 4x the skill points at 1st level.
Frugal 03-18-07, 10:49 AM	I still fail to see what the OP is really getting at. Cross-class skills cost 2 points, class skills cost 1. Are you suggesting that once you gain a skill as a class skill it should always be considered a class skill (for points cost)? Consider that gaining a level signifies that you've been working on certain abilities during the time that it took to level. If you take a level in fighter then you've been focusing on your martial prowess. Take a level in rogue? Then you've been focusing more on stealth and other rogue abilities. During that time, certain skills will be easier to learn (or improve) than others because the nature of focusing on certain abilities makes improvement in those skills natural. For instance, working on martial skills will naturally make you more fit so it doesn't take much effort to improve your swimming and climbing. But something like spellcraft would require a lot of arcane study in the nature of magic, it just doesn't really fit with improving your martial study so you're going to advance in it slower than somebody who's spending their time researching the nature of magic and new spells.
SALDAR 03-18-07, 11:30 AM	Am I to understand correctly that you actually lose skills put into a cross-class skill, even if you later gain it as a class skill? You haven't lost the skill points but because you chose a cross class skill to spend them on it cost you double at that time. You do not regain skill points once they have been spent and you haven't actually lost them since the character did gain ranks in the skill. It is like buying a book on Monday and then it goes on sale on Friday, you don't get the difference back. I wouldn't houserule it otherwise. This isn't meant to discourage players from taking cross class skills, it just makes them think ahead and plan better for their character's future development. If a player knows that they are going to take a class that has a certain skill that is a cross class skill for their current class they should decide if it is worth the extra cost now as a cross class skill or if it is worth holding off until later to spend fewer skill points on it as a class skill.
Frugal 03-18-07, 11:39 AM	I wouldn't houserule it otherwise. This isn't meant to discourage players from taking cross class skills, it just makes them think ahead and plan better for their character's future development. If a player knows that they are going to take a class that has a certain skill that is a cross class skill for their current class they should decide if it is worth the extra cost now as a cross class skill or if it is worth holding off until later to spend fewer skill points on it as a class skill. Exactly, especially considering that the max ranks for any class skill is HD+3 means you can pump up a skill pretty well with only 1 level in the class if you already have a few HD, but it does involve some planning.
Decinious 03-18-07, 12:16 PM	The main reason not to house rule skills would be making the plethora of feats that make skills class skills useless, creating a chain reaction making prestige classes that require those feats make you take a useless feat. If someone has a problem with wanting cross class skill cheaper, tell them to be human and take the Able Learner feat pg 150 Races of Destiny. That feat makes all skills only cost 1 skill point per rank, though you are still limited to 1/2 ranks in cross class skills.