Deadeye Shot question.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deadeye Shot question.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vineyard
06-19-07, 11:01 AM I am having a bit of trouble figuring out exactly how this works, with emphasis on the Ready An Action portion of it.

The feat states;
1. Ready an action to make a Ranged Attack on an opponent when any of your allies hit it in melee.
2. If the Action is triggered, the opponent looses its Dex bonus to AC against your attack only.

Now, I am obviously trying to use this in combination with my sneak attack.

So, I ready my action, wait to see if it is triggered and no allie hits the opponent I have taken aim at. The big question, do I still get to make my regular attack if the readied action is not triggered? (note; I refer to what my regular attack would be, anything dealing with using Deadeye Shot not withanding)
tarkin
06-19-07, 11:21 AM No.

If you ready an attack, you must wait the ENTIRE round, until your turn comes up again, for the triggering event.

As you have waited the entire round, you have no time to take any action - your next round is here.
jaelis
06-19-07, 11:26 AM That's right. It's the same with readying a weapon against a charge... if your opponent doesn't charge you, you don't get to go. Or if you ready an action to counterspell and the target doesn't cast.

You accept the risk of not getting to do anything in return for an advantage if things work out the way you expected.
mostholy2
06-19-07, 11:51 AM The feat states;
1. Ready an action to make a Ranged Attack on an opponent when any of your allies hit it in melee.
2. If the Action is triggered, the opponent looses its Dex bonus to AC against your attack only.I don't think your interpretation of how the feat works is quite correct. The dead-eye shot feat says: ...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attackTo me this description suggests that you ready your attack to occur when a specific ally attacks a specific opponent. The readied action is triggered by the attack attempt by your ally, not a successful attack by any ally. Otherwise the description would say "...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when any ally successfully strikes a particular target..."

Since you are readying an action to trigger when an attack occurs, you will make the attack no matter what, unless your ally doesn't attack the target. Then depending on if your ally hits the target, either the target loses DEX to AC vs. your readied attack or doesn't. The loss of DEX to AC is what allows you to apply sneak attack damage.
goawayugh
06-19-07, 12:03 PM I don't think your interpretation of how the feat works is quite correct. The dead-eye shot feat says: To me this description suggests that you ready your attack to occur when a specific ally attacks a specific opponent. The readied action is triggered by the attack attempt by your ally, not a successful attack by any ally. Otherwise the description would say "...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when any ally successfully strikes a particular target..."

Since you are readying an action to trigger when an attack occurs, you will make the attack no matter what, unless your ally doesn't attack the target. Then depending on if your ally hits the target, either the target loses DEX to AC vs. your readied attack or doesn't. The loss of DEX to AC is what allows you to apply sneak attack damage.

I partially agree with this. I don't think it's supposed to be a specific ally, just any ally. Although it does have to be a specific target.

But yes, your readied attack is triggered by your ally attacking, not by a successful attack. If he happens to hit, then the target is denied his Dex.
vineyard
06-19-07, 12:20 PM Yeah, it can be any ally, just so long as it is an ally.
mostholy2
06-19-07, 01:39 PM I partially agree with this. I don't think it's supposed to be a specific ally, just any ally. Although it does have to be a specific target.

But yes, your readied attack is triggered by your ally attacking, not by a successful attack. If he happens to hit, then the target is denied his Dex.From a second reading of the dead-eye shot feat description and the readied action section of the SRD, I agree that your readied attack can be triggered by any ally attacking a specific opponent.

However, you would still have to choose when the readied attack goes off before an ally's attack dice were resolved. You, therefore, might as well trigger the readied attack to coincide with the specific ally that has the greatest chance to hit. By doing this, there is almost no practical difference between triggering the attack for a specific ally's attack and triggering the attack before any ally's attack dice are resolved.
vineyard
06-19-07, 07:20 PM The rule states that once the ally has made a successful hit, before they roll damage or anything esle, that that is exactly when the feat is triggered( i.e. the split second before the ally makes contact with the target)
mostholy2
06-19-07, 11:58 PM The dead-eye shot feat description says:If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attack.The feat description can be separated into two parts: 1) you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes AND 2) if your ally succeeds that target loses DEX bonus to AC vs. your attack. The feat doesn't say that you ready a ranged attack in response to an ally's successful attack. If it meant that, the description would read:

"...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally successfully strikes a particular target, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attack."

Not that logic has any bearing on any of these rules discussions, but it does make sense that to catch someone offguard because of an ally's successful attack, your attack would need to occur almost simultaneously to the blow. This will most likely happen when you time your shot to coincide with your ally's blow, not after you've seen him land the blow, then you release the ranged attack.
vineyard
06-20-07, 12:09 AM The feat doesn't say that you ready a ranged attack in response to an ally's successful attack.

Who are you arguing this against. Of course you dont ready an action when your ally hits, you ready it at the beginning of your turn, it is, however, triggered when yoru ally lands a hit.
mostholy2
06-20-07, 01:10 AM I am having a discussion with you (vineyard) about the mechanics of how we perceive the dead-eye shot feat to work.

You have made a quite reasonable argument that you use this feat by readying your ranged attack against any successful attack made by an opponent against a specific ally, which will automatically make the creature denied DEX to AC.

I have suggested that the feat does not state that you ready a ranged attack to trigger on a successful attack, but rather states that you ready the ranged attack to be triggered when an ally makes an attack.

Readying an action must have specific event(s) to trigger it and resolves prior to the action that triggers it.Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character...The paradox that occurs if you ready your ranged attack to resolve in response to a successful hit by your ally is that the SRD states that readied actions occur just before the action that triggers it. So if your readied attack occurs just before your ally hits, how can you know if the attack will hit or not?
vineyard
06-20-07, 11:06 AM As described by the feat, your ally makes an attack against your target, they role to see if they hit, if they role well enough to conquer the targets AC then in effect they have hit the target. Now, since it has been established that they have, in effect, hit the target, but before they role damage, you make your attack. One your attack has been made, whether it hits or not, the ally then rolls their damage against the target. The way I take it from the feat is that as the target is distracted by the inevatability of the coming strike you use that opportunity to attack thus negating their dex bonus. In short, you attack after they make their ATK roll (which they have to make) but before their DMG roll(s).
mostholy2
06-20-07, 02:06 PM OK, I think I see where our disconnect is happening. It lies in the reading of the feat description. Here is the feat in it's entirety:Deadeye Shot
You carefully line up a ranged attack, timing it precisely so that you hit your opponent when his guard is down. When your target is busy dealing with an ally's melee attack, you strike.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, BAB+4, Skirmish or Sneak attack ability.
Benefit: By firing just as your ally connects with a blow, you take advantage of the distraction to strike the same enemy when his guard is ruined. If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attack.
Special: A fighter can select Deadeye Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.I believe that your reading of the feat is influenced by the first sentence of the "Benefit" section which implies that you fire when your ally connects (successfully attacks) with a blow. However, this first sentence doesn't describe game mechanics at all, it is just a physical description of what happens.

The mechanics of how the feat should be played by is detailed by the second sentence in the "Benefit" section, which is what I've been trying to describe in my past posts. There is nothing in the benefit section that specifies that your ally rolls attack dice first. Whereas, the second sentence states that you are readying a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes (not when your ally strikes successfully).

I really don't think it makes a huge difference which ever way you play it. If you play it your way, and all your allies miss the target you will have wasted the readied action as the triggering event never occured. If you play it my way, and the attack that trigger's your ranged attack misses, you do your attack as normal, but don't gain sneak attack or deny DEX to AC for the target. Not really that much difference.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vineyard 06-19-07, 11:01 AM	I am having a bit of trouble figuring out exactly how this works, with emphasis on the Ready An Action portion of it. The feat states; 1. Ready an action to make a Ranged Attack on an opponent when any of your allies hit it in melee. 2. If the Action is triggered, the opponent looses its Dex bonus to AC against your attack only. Now, I am obviously trying to use this in combination with my sneak attack. So, I ready my action, wait to see if it is triggered and no allie hits the opponent I have taken aim at. The big question, do I still get to make my regular attack if the readied action is not triggered? (note; I refer to what my regular attack would be, anything dealing with using Deadeye Shot not withanding)
tarkin 06-19-07, 11:21 AM	No. If you ready an attack, you must wait the ENTIRE round, until your turn comes up again, for the triggering event. As you have waited the entire round, you have no time to take any action - your next round is here.
jaelis 06-19-07, 11:26 AM	That's right. It's the same with readying a weapon against a charge... if your opponent doesn't charge you, you don't get to go. Or if you ready an action to counterspell and the target doesn't cast. You accept the risk of not getting to do anything in return for an advantage if things work out the way you expected.
mostholy2 06-19-07, 11:51 AM	The feat states; 1. Ready an action to make a Ranged Attack on an opponent when any of your allies hit it in melee. 2. If the Action is triggered, the opponent looses its Dex bonus to AC against your attack only.I don't think your interpretation of how the feat works is quite correct. The dead-eye shot feat says: ...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attackTo me this description suggests that you ready your attack to occur when a specific ally attacks a specific opponent. The readied action is triggered by the attack attempt by your ally, not a successful attack by any ally. Otherwise the description would say "...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when any ally successfully strikes a particular target..." Since you are readying an action to trigger when an attack occurs, you will make the attack no matter what, unless your ally doesn't attack the target. Then depending on if your ally hits the target, either the target loses DEX to AC vs. your readied attack or doesn't. The loss of DEX to AC is what allows you to apply sneak attack damage.
goawayugh 06-19-07, 12:03 PM	I don't think your interpretation of how the feat works is quite correct. The dead-eye shot feat says: To me this description suggests that you ready your attack to occur when a specific ally attacks a specific opponent. The readied action is triggered by the attack attempt by your ally, not a successful attack by any ally. Otherwise the description would say "...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when any ally successfully strikes a particular target..." Since you are readying an action to trigger when an attack occurs, you will make the attack no matter what, unless your ally doesn't attack the target. Then depending on if your ally hits the target, either the target loses DEX to AC vs. your readied attack or doesn't. The loss of DEX to AC is what allows you to apply sneak attack damage. I partially agree with this. I don't think it's supposed to be a specific ally, just any ally. Although it does have to be a specific target. But yes, your readied attack is triggered by your ally attacking, not by a successful attack. If he happens to hit, then the target is denied his Dex.
vineyard 06-19-07, 12:20 PM	Yeah, it can be any ally, just so long as it is an ally.
mostholy2 06-19-07, 01:39 PM	I partially agree with this. I don't think it's supposed to be a specific ally, just any ally. Although it does have to be a specific target. But yes, your readied attack is triggered by your ally attacking, not by a successful attack. If he happens to hit, then the target is denied his Dex.From a second reading of the dead-eye shot feat description and the readied action section of the SRD, I agree that your readied attack can be triggered by any ally attacking a specific opponent. However, you would still have to choose when the readied attack goes off before an ally's attack dice were resolved. You, therefore, might as well trigger the readied attack to coincide with the specific ally that has the greatest chance to hit. By doing this, there is almost no practical difference between triggering the attack for a specific ally's attack and triggering the attack before any ally's attack dice are resolved.
vineyard 06-19-07, 07:20 PM	The rule states that once the ally has made a successful hit, before they roll damage or anything esle, that that is exactly when the feat is triggered( i.e. the split second before the ally makes contact with the target)
mostholy2 06-19-07, 11:58 PM	The dead-eye shot feat description says:If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attack.The feat description can be separated into two parts: 1) you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes AND 2) if your ally succeeds that target loses DEX bonus to AC vs. your attack. The feat doesn't say that you ready a ranged attack in response to an ally's successful attack. If it meant that, the description would read: "...If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally successfully strikes a particular target, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attack." Not that logic has any bearing on any of these rules discussions, but it does make sense that to catch someone offguard because of an ally's successful attack, your attack would need to occur almost simultaneously to the blow. This will most likely happen when you time your shot to coincide with your ally's blow, not after you've seen him land the blow, then you release the ranged attack.
vineyard 06-20-07, 12:09 AM	The feat doesn't say that you ready a ranged attack in response to an ally's successful attack. Who are you arguing this against. Of course you dont ready an action when your ally hits, you ready it at the beginning of your turn, it is, however, triggered when yoru ally lands a hit.
mostholy2 06-20-07, 01:10 AM	I am having a discussion with you (vineyard) about the mechanics of how we perceive the dead-eye shot feat to work. You have made a quite reasonable argument that you use this feat by readying your ranged attack against any successful attack made by an opponent against a specific ally, which will automatically make the creature denied DEX to AC. I have suggested that the feat does not state that you ready a ranged attack to trigger on a successful attack, but rather states that you ready the ranged attack to be triggered when an ally makes an attack. Readying an action must have specific event(s) to trigger it and resolves prior to the action that triggers it.Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character...The paradox that occurs if you ready your ranged attack to resolve in response to a successful hit by your ally is that the SRD states that readied actions occur just before the action that triggers it. So if your readied attack occurs just before your ally hits, how can you know if the attack will hit or not?
vineyard 06-20-07, 11:06 AM	As described by the feat, your ally makes an attack against your target, they role to see if they hit, if they role well enough to conquer the targets AC then in effect they have hit the target. Now, since it has been established that they have, in effect, hit the target, but before they role damage, you make your attack. One your attack has been made, whether it hits or not, the ally then rolls their damage against the target. The way I take it from the feat is that as the target is distracted by the inevatability of the coming strike you use that opportunity to attack thus negating their dex bonus. In short, you attack after they make their ATK roll (which they have to make) but before their DMG roll(s).
mostholy2 06-20-07, 02:06 PM	OK, I think I see where our disconnect is happening. It lies in the reading of the feat description. Here is the feat in it's entirety:Deadeye Shot You carefully line up a ranged attack, timing it precisely so that you hit your opponent when his guard is down. When your target is busy dealing with an ally's melee attack, you strike. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, BAB+4, Skirmish or Sneak attack ability. Benefit: By firing just as your ally connects with a blow, you take advantage of the distraction to strike the same enemy when his guard is ruined. If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his DEX bonus to AC against your attack. Special: A fighter can select Deadeye Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.I believe that your reading of the feat is influenced by the first sentence of the "Benefit" section which implies that you fire when your ally connects (successfully attacks) with a blow. However, this first sentence doesn't describe game mechanics at all, it is just a physical description of what happens. The mechanics of how the feat should be played by is detailed by the second sentence in the "Benefit" section, which is what I've been trying to describe in my past posts. There is nothing in the benefit section that specifies that your ally rolls attack dice first. Whereas, the second sentence states that you are readying a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes (not when your ally strikes successfully). I really don't think it makes a huge difference which ever way you play it. If you play it your way, and all your allies miss the target you will have wasted the readied action as the triggering event never occured. If you play it my way, and the attack that trigger's your ranged attack misses, you do your attack as normal, but don't gain sneak attack or deny DEX to AC for the target. Not really that much difference.